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Capital Escalations - Multiboxing meeself some dank 2b Isk per hour :>

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Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#21 - 2015-07-14 21:11:31 UTC
You don't need to observe for very long honestly. You can tell who mostly farms and those who pew.

It's a bit too convenient to be able to collapse or crit your hole and close off every entrance. To kill farmers who do that, you have to either roll into them, and find their fleet with a bubbler ready to go (rage roll), or a log off trap where you log in their hole.

There has been a few proposals on the wspace forums regarding possible options, ranging from wormhole highway of interconnected shattered wormholes to moving c5 and c6 capital escalations into shattered space, and a massive mass wormhole to attack to c5 and 6s to give them a capital highway to go through in shattered space (so escalations can be run without rolling your hole because 3 caps went through.). It would function very similarly to how c2 space runs (they want ISk they farm their static).

Do people who farm regularly want this? No it's more work and more risk and it opens up their home to more risk also. Those who don't bother with capital escalations on a nightly basis.. Dunno. I'd love to have a viable roam able wspace area where people risk ships to obtain loot, vs people closing their hole and farming in shame.

Yaay!!!!
E1ev1n
Big Sister Exploration
#22 - 2015-07-14 23:44:04 UTC
unimatrix0030 wrote:
Ben Ishikela wrote:

Work. come home. do sites. scan the chain for targets. go to bed.
So thats 4-6hours per day maximum (health?). and with that downtime-reset its doable nearly every day. so the worker cant do more than this in nullsec in that 4h. so there is no difference in how often per day sites are available. Only that the spawnrate caps/effects the number of people that can live in one place in some way:
Spread out into multiple wh and the isk per person increases. Running the sites with less players is a challenge with great profit .... and that incentifies an antisocial environment.
That and the thing that (IF having limited time) looting others is less profitable than doing pve yourself. ==>Bear
---
"In comparison 0.0 is in a very good shape." lol

Well if you do the sites with 10 people(see capital escalation guides), then you have 300 mil each day for every one.
And the rest of the corp/alliance can have any of it... .
And that for 4 days, and then you need to hope some sites respawn.
Also there is a 10 bil entrance fee to have the proper ships to do this.
In null an ishtar and a carrier suffice.

But i do agree that we need more tools and or people trying to kill the farmers.
There are some i named that got nerfed.
There used to be a good tool, pve kill numbers you could get with the api, but that was removed by ccp.
Now you need someone to observe the possible targets for a long time to be able to assertain when they will start farming.
Maybe to lessen the impact of this we rather should concentrace on thinking of new way to be able to kill the farmers.

Just to help your argument an 80 mil isk Vexor Navy Issue (fully fit) in null will suffice plus another for each alt you are multiboxing.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#23 - 2015-07-15 01:32:29 UTC
E1ev1n wrote:
...Just to help your argument an 80 mil isk Vexor Navy Issue (fully fit) in null will suffice plus another for each alt you are multiboxing.


Wormhole income is a little.. let's say different than running anomalies in null Blink

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Cannibal Zuza
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-07-15 06:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Zuza
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Just going to leave this here for your viewing pleasure: 2b Isk / h

Posted the same to reddit

C5/C6 are broken and things need to change. I'm not in favor of removing capital escalations, as I've pointed out before - they are a great conflict driver - but seeing as high-class wormholes have now completely deteriorated into glorious farming lands, CCP needs to make some drastic changes. And they need to do it soon.

What changes, you ask: I see multiple options. The first, the more realistic option (something CCP would/could actually implement) is:

Heavily intertwine C5/C6 through adding a second static.

Less realistic, but probably more sensible:

2.) Merge C5 and C6 space and shrink it down to 300-400 systems.

3.) Remove capital escalations from C5 space and add some more C6 systems.

By now you probably wonder what kind of drugs I am on. Be honest to yourself though, high-class wormhole space is focked so hard right now, stuff has to happen.



You must really hate your corp mates if you're going this far to provoke someones to pay you a visit. While your at it you might as well provide the nearest systems to your whereabouts to help speed up the eviction process.
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#25 - 2015-07-15 08:10:23 UTC
Guuuys guuuys, stop the fighting.
We all (should) know the problem in wormholes.
Its not the highclass PVPers, maybe their summer inactivity but thats every year.
Its the highclass renters. Renters, in our space, those have to be crushed. Like they have to be crushed in all of eve.
Get into their systems, disrupt all their pve, drop bubbles at important locations, disrupt, disrupt, disrupt.
Dont annoy pvper, they give content.
Annoy the renter farmers and their overlords.

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#26 - 2015-07-15 09:31:10 UTC
It is sad to read about how WH space appears to be turning into something more like null sec space, where elite groups farm renters and run those unwilling to bend the knee out of their space. Such is the nature of the sandbox, however...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Anthar Thebess
#27 - 2015-07-15 12:20:42 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
It is sad to read about how WH space appears to be turning into something more like null sec space, where elite groups farm renters and run those unwilling to bend the knee out of their space. Such is the nature of the sandbox, however...

Yes blobs are something normal in WH now.
Lets hope that Difters will change this.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Bleedingthrough
#28 - 2015-07-15 12:41:26 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

No. They are risking getting blasted and runnning mulitiple accounts they should make more profit for both reasons.


I don’t think it is as simple as that.
The real problem is that capital escalations only work well for farmers and therefor you only see farmers in C5+ space.

It is an antisocial mechanic that does not create any content compared to the ISK generated. If you are serious about making the most of your C5+ home you are forced to lock yourself in for 4 consecutive nights. Even if you are able to run sites in a single cycle that will still be 2+h less PvP and if you are less efficient at PvE you spend the night with nothing but ratting. Any PvPer in your group will hate that and those are the ones that matter.

Farmers risk virtually nothing compared to what they gain. (Don’t argue that. This is fact.) In the example given by the OP he would at most lose a single cap. Even an eviction would not hurt a competent farmer much ISK wise. He would lose a stick. That is all. Logistics are a different story though. Realistically, removing farmers from C5+ space is just a too boring activity to be an option. Maybe new POS mechanics will change that.

Anyone wanting to PvP in C5+ space risks way more. Unlike farmers they have and need way more assets in their WH than they could hope to extract if **** hits the fan. And there are lots of PvP groups that could evict you if you pissed them off or they are bored enough and unlike killing farmers they could actually get content out of this.

A developing and content oriented group that moves into C5+ with C5+ static space is basically ******. You don’t get to field your big toys unless you outnumber them anyways because mass based spawn distance and the nice income from capital escalations will **** your PvPers off. There are not many targets around anyways. It is not uncommon to probe 5+ WHs deep only to find offline farmers. There has always been content from null connections in C5 space, so this was still a somewhat acceptable situation. Recent patch might even have destroyed that content.

In general, I don’t think too much or too few ISK is the problem, the problem is lack of content C5+ space intrinsically generates. I would love to fight awesome groups like HK but you never catch ‘em with their pants down. I feel that this is becoming more and more a numbers game… ping ping, convo friends, roll roll, Mexican standoff… don’t like that. But hey, maybe that’s just me.

/#TLTR
Yes, I think capital escalations is bad game design and needs to be replaced by something that favors active groups and generates content.
Lokar Griman
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#29 - 2015-07-15 14:11:14 UTC
Wow so much crying about not abel too kill defencless capitals ,huurrdurrdurr how sad. Guess what first off all youl never get near a proper pve fleet you have scout that has probes on stand by , and dcanning all times. So they already have headsup , next thing would be sending dictors an hics to try slow down anything from going after capitals,, plus by that time the 3-4 lokis that were pveing already swaped to pvp ships , and try stop you so, yea... gl getting capital kills. Yeah probably youl get multiboxer pants down but eve proper multiboxer will have an defence plan ready incasr crap starts to drop on hin.
Lokar Griman
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#30 - 2015-07-15 14:30:31 UTC
And no capital esc should not be nerfed, you do that you will kill pvp cotent, especisly those rich who will bring out shiny ships and fits. And noone will pvp against superior numbers if knows that they will get slautherd.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#31 - 2015-07-15 15:25:32 UTC
Zekora Rally wrote:
This was happening when high class wh pvp was booming so how exactly is any of this different?


What happened is human nature. People learn that you get more via cooperation than conflict. It's not game mechanics, and changing game mechanics doesn't change anything (this is what the OP gets wrong).

WHs are just going through the same thing null went through. People fought each other and since this is a game, that's fun, but acquiring things *(like is) is also fun and enable other things, so those groups that fought realized that cooperating (like OTEC and blueing everyone) ended up[ being the best of both worlds, because your income became safe AND you could use the isk to troll others in lesser circumstances.

It's litterally why humans went from nomads to farmers to tribes to cities to countries that fought each other to countries that formed every bigger countries till they were super powers that created a balance where no one wants to fight the big other side but will invade smaller groups all day every day lol. Art (EVE) imitates life.

Again, the mistake the the OP (as well as many game developer,s not just CCP) makes is blaming it on game mechanics and thinking that the fix is different game mechanics.. People are going to be people no matter what the venue.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#32 - 2015-07-15 18:32:05 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Zekora Rally wrote:
This was happening when high class wh pvp was booming so how exactly is any of this different?


What happened is human nature. People learn that you get more via cooperation than conflict. It's not game mechanics, and changing game mechanics doesn't change anything (this is what the OP gets wrong).

WHs are just going through the same thing null went through. People fought each other and since this is a game, that's fun, but acquiring things *(like is) is also fun and enable other things, so those groups that fought realized that cooperating (like OTEC and blueing everyone) ended up[ being the best of both worlds, because your income became safe AND you could use the isk to troll others in lesser circumstances.

It's litterally why humans went from nomads to farmers to tribes to cities to countries that fought each other to countries that formed every bigger countries till they were super powers that created a balance where no one wants to fight the big other side but will invade smaller groups all day every day lol. Art (EVE) imitates life.

Again, the mistake the the OP (as well as many game developer,s not just CCP) makes is blaming it on game mechanics and thinking that the fix is different game mechanics.. People are going to be people no matter what the venue.


Well, it is also true that many of the most influential leaders in the game are more interested in playing the meta game than Eve. For many, it appears to be more fun to play great dictator or CEO of Fortune 500 company than spaceship-flying demi-god. It's not just developers who appear to rarely play, it's also Old Guard alliance leadership. The kinds of people who lose touch with their members.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#33 - 2015-07-15 20:08:43 UTC
Cannibal Zuza wrote:
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Just going to leave this here for your viewing pleasure: 2b Isk / h

Posted the same to reddit

C5/C6 are broken and things need to change. I'm not in favor of removing capital escalations, as I've pointed out before - they are a great conflict driver - but seeing as high-class wormholes have now completely deteriorated into glorious farming lands, CCP needs to make some drastic changes. And they need to do it soon.

What changes, you ask: I see multiple options. The first, the more realistic option (something CCP would/could actually implement) is:

Heavily intertwine C5/C6 through adding a second static.

Less realistic, but probably more sensible:

2.) Merge C5 and C6 space and shrink it down to 300-400 systems.

3.) Remove capital escalations from C5 space and add some more C6 systems.

By now you probably wonder what kind of drugs I am on. Be honest to yourself though, high-class wormhole space is focked so hard right now, stuff has to happen.



You must really hate your corp mates if you're going this far to provoke someones to pay you a visit. While your at it you might as well provide the nearest systems to your whereabouts to help speed up the eviction process.


Hehe. Already moved out m8 ... I'd show you a picture of me comfortably riding my capitals in lowsec, however, as the server is offline ...
Mar5hy
BLOPSEC
#34 - 2015-07-17 00:43:57 UTC
Why don't we create a nomadic corp and seed in all the care-bears wormholes and pew them for the lol's?
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#35 - 2015-07-17 00:46:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Bleedingthrough wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:

No. They are risking getting blasted and runnning mulitiple accounts they should make more profit for both reasons.


I don’t think it is as simple as that.
The real problem is that capital escalations only work well for farmers and therefor you only see farmers in C5+ space.

It is an antisocial mechanic that does not create any content compared to the ISK generated. If you are serious about making the most of your C5+ home you are forced to lock yourself in for 4 consecutive nights. Even if you are able to run sites in a single cycle that will still be 2+h less PvP and if you are less efficient at PvE you spend the night with nothing but ratting. Any PvPer in your group will hate that and those are the ones that matter.

Farmers risk virtually nothing compared to what they gain. (Don’t argue that. This is fact.) In the example given by the OP he would at most lose a single cap. Even an eviction would not hurt a competent farmer much ISK wise. He would lose a stick. That is all. Logistics are a different story though. Realistically, removing farmers from C5+ space is just a too boring activity to be an option. Maybe new POS mechanics will change that.

Anyone wanting to PvP in C5+ space risks way more. Unlike farmers they have and need way more assets in their WH than they could hope to extract if **** hits the fan. And there are lots of PvP groups that could evict you if you pissed them off or they are bored enough and unlike killing farmers they could actually get content out of this.

A developing and content oriented group that moves into C5+ with C5+ static space is basically ******. You don’t get to field your big toys unless you outnumber them anyways because mass based spawn distance and the nice income from capital escalations will **** your PvPers off. There are not many targets around anyways. It is not uncommon to probe 5+ WHs deep only to find offline farmers. There has always been content from null connections in C5 space, so this was still a somewhat acceptable situation. Recent patch might even have destroyed that content.

In general, I don’t think too much or too few ISK is the problem, the problem is lack of content C5+ space intrinsically generates. I would love to fight awesome groups like HK but you never catch ‘em with their pants down. I feel that this is becoming more and more a numbers game… ping ping, convo friends, roll roll, Mexican standoff… don’t like that. But hey, maybe that’s just me.

/#TLTR
Yes, I think capital escalations is bad game design and needs to be replaced by something that favors active groups and generates content.

DR/MA (did read, my answer)
I respect your opinion but still believe this case amounts to nothing more than i dont benefit from it, therefore, it should be nerfed. You claim it adds nothing but i think billions in ISK for people willing to do this is inherently adding something of importance to the game, just not something you like and that doesnt amount to justification for a game change to me.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#36 - 2015-07-17 01:14:31 UTC
OP, you should know that pew pew is not the only thing that comes from wormholes. You like the current pricetags on tech3 stuff?
Me too, so let's keep it that way since you can only make the subsystem and hulls there.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
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