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Warp in Recon Fast Tackle
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Sigras
Conglomo
#21 - 2015-07-15 10:05:10 UTC
afkalt wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
Guess an interceptor isnt fast enough?


Honestly? Not if people are paying attention.

I did some tests, about 20-25 seconds to land on grid and be able to interact with a target for a <6AU warp in an ascendancy clone.

That's the point. This is called counter play...

If you have a ship that can catch someone no matter how skilled they are, how much preparation they have done and how much they're paying attention, that's what we call overpowered.
Marcius Decimus
BLISSA CORP
#22 - 2015-07-15 20:13:11 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Now fit an Extended Probe launcher on said ships and see how much of a fit is left.
That is the real problem is the insane fitting room needed for combat probes/the lack of any T1 or T2 ships with a fitting bonus to combat probes.
If Recons & Cov Ops got a fitting bonus to Combat probes so they could fit them and still have a decent fit, things would be fine even if they don't have any scan bonuses.

[Arazu, Fast Tackle]
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Thermic Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Domination Warp Scrambler
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Domination Warp Disruptor
10MN Microwarpdrive II

Expanded Probe Launcher II, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Targeting Systems Stabilizer II
Medium Targeting Systems Stabilizer II

Hammerhead II x4

It locks 5 seconds after decloaking, has over 30k EHP, fits a combat probe launcher and warp scrambles at 22 km. This is as good as a cloaking ship can reasonably be at tackling.

Any survivable ship that could insta-lock you out of cloak would be terrible game design because it eliminates counter play... You get no warning, and no chance to react, even if you're paying attention and are aligned out, you'll still be caught. This would be bad game design.


I truly respect all the feedback on this and I completely agree with the folks chiming in that I overstepped when making the ship far too much. I think this description by this poster I quoted fills the spot (in general) I am looking for, but as someone pointed out it is pretty expensive. But, maybe that is the point. The thing i am asking for is available to some extent, just very expensive. So, as with all things EVE, you have choice and risk vs. reward.

I have to admit, i was thinking more of a less expensive tackling ship, but as was pointed out well by many of you, maybe that is not the right thing.

You all gave me a lot to think about, thanks. Really appreciate the comments and input, even those who said my idea was pretty myopic and shallow.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-07-15 20:18:51 UTC
Sigras wrote:
afkalt wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
Guess an interceptor isnt fast enough?


Honestly? Not if people are paying attention.

I did some tests, about 20-25 seconds to land on grid and be able to interact with a target for a <6AU warp in an ascendancy clone.

That's the point. This is called counter play...

If you have a ship that can catch someone no matter how skilled they are, how much preparation they have done and how much they're paying attention, that's what we call overpowered.



Yes, it's more that a lot of people massively overestimate how fast even a warp speeded interceptor can get onto grid and tackle from.
Juan Mileghere
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#24 - 2015-07-15 22:11:21 UTC
Marcius Decimus wrote:
I have come to accept CCP will change the fleet warp and I accept there are some who think this is good. What I am asking is this...

If we do make this change, why not create a fast tackle recon which has remarkable tank, scanning, speed and possibly bubble capability. Make it so the bubble is a single load with a massive reload time, but the idea is this...

Good fights from people who want to kite and/or evade are tough to get sometimes because you cannot get a warp in. Quite frankly, the new changes will make small gang attack fleets who hit and run a new major player in eve. I respect this can be good, but provide a counter.

So, give a counter. Provide a small fast ship with a sole purpose of scanning, warping in and getting limited tackle and a warp in. Give it survivability but absolutely no DPS capability so it can solely be used for warping in and providing warp ins for fleets.

I understand there are variations to the idea as some folks in here have much more knowledge than I, but the general concept IMHO is valid.

These ships should be the fastest available, excellent scanning (possibly covert scanning which I think would be cool) with good tank, but no DPS.

Thoughts?

Astero... seriously, they're expensive but they fill the role perfectly...

Blobbing Explained
Sigras
Conglomo
#25 - 2015-07-15 23:24:07 UTC
Marcius Decimus wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Now fit an Extended Probe launcher on said ships and see how much of a fit is left.
That is the real problem is the insane fitting room needed for combat probes/the lack of any T1 or T2 ships with a fitting bonus to combat probes.
If Recons & Cov Ops got a fitting bonus to Combat probes so they could fit them and still have a decent fit, things would be fine even if they don't have any scan bonuses.

[Arazu, Fast Tackle]
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Thermic Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Domination Warp Scrambler
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Domination Warp Disruptor
10MN Microwarpdrive II

Expanded Probe Launcher II, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Targeting Systems Stabilizer II
Medium Targeting Systems Stabilizer II

Hammerhead II x4

It locks 5 seconds after decloaking, has over 30k EHP, fits a combat probe launcher and warp scrambles at 22 km. This is as good as a cloaking ship can reasonably be at tackling.

Any survivable ship that could insta-lock you out of cloak would be terrible game design because it eliminates counter play... You get no warning, and no chance to react, even if you're paying attention and are aligned out, you'll still be caught. This would be bad game design.

I truly respect all the feedback on this and I completely agree with the folks chiming in that I overstepped when making the ship far too much. I think this description by this poster I quoted fills the spot (in general) I am looking for, but as someone pointed out it is pretty expensive. But, maybe that is the point. The thing i am asking for is available to some extent, just very expensive. So, as with all things EVE, you have choice and risk vs. reward.

I have to admit, i was thinking more of a less expensive tackling ship, but as was pointed out well by many of you, maybe that is not the right thing.

You all gave me a lot to think about, thanks. Really appreciate the comments and input, even those who said my idea was pretty myopic and shallow.

If you're looking for something less expensive, consider going with non faction warp scramblers/disruptors... This will still warp scramble at 21 with heat before links... you may have to drop to an adaptive plating to get them to fit but it should still work and it will be below 200 million.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-07-16 09:06:52 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
so you want a covert ops-inty-dictor monster hybrid?


why not throw in some e-war...tack on EAF to that mix too. Why stop at putting 3 classes of ship out of work, go for 4.

It needs a role bonus for double EWAR so it can fit half the EWAR modules cause it needs room for active shield tank, hardeners, capbooster, and an oversized prop mod.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-07-19 05:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Wynta
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Now fit an Extended Probe launcher on said ships and see how much of a fit is left.
That is the real problem is the insane fitting room needed for combat probes/the lack of any T1 or T2 ships with a fitting bonus to combat probes.
If Recons & Cov Ops got a fitting bonus to Combat probes so they could fit them and still have a decent fit, things would be fine even if they don't have any scan bonuses.


Every chance I get I reiterate how much I hated the Recon changes...

The force recon should have become the best Combat Prober in the game, and served as the go to ship for BLOPs hunters.

They should have had the 2 EWAR bonuses, the Cloak bonus, and a 15% combat probe strength bonus with a role bonus to either Probe Launcher fitting or scan speed, and given a bit more cpu.

Instead we have a ship that is sort of just a EWAR boat with a cloak.

EDIT: Cyno bonus->cloak bonus
Lugh Crow-Slave
#28 - 2015-07-19 08:04:47 UTC
Bring an inty with a few EAFs for over 20km scram range and over 40km webs (b4 links)


rather than getting one ship that can do three things

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#29 - 2015-07-19 11:46:35 UTC
Marcius Decimus wrote:
I have come to accept CCP will change the fleet warp and I accept there are some who think this is good. What I am asking is this...

If we do make this change, why not create a fast tackle recon which has remarkable tank, scanning, speed and possibly bubble capability. Make it so the bubble is a single load with a massive reload time, but the idea is this...

Good fights from people who want to kite and/or evade are tough to get sometimes because you cannot get a warp in. Quite frankly, the new changes will make small gang attack fleets who hit and run a new major player in eve. I respect this can be good, but provide a counter.

So, give a counter. Provide a small fast ship with a sole purpose of scanning, warping in and getting limited tackle and a warp in. Give it survivability but absolutely no DPS capability so it can solely be used for warping in and providing warp ins for fleets.

I understand there are variations to the idea as some folks in here have much more knowledge than I, but the general concept IMHO is valid.

These ships should be the fastest available, excellent scanning (possibly covert scanning which I think would be cool) with good tank, but no DPS.

Thoughts?


What's wrong with a cloaky tackle Proteus?

Or even a Lachesis (does not show up on DSCAN, remember?)

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-07-20 20:23:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Marcius Decimus wrote:
I have come to accept CCP will change the fleet warp and I accept there are some who think this is good. What I am asking is this...

If we do make this change, why not create a fast tackle recon which has remarkable tank, scanning, speed and possibly bubble capability. Make it so the bubble is a single load with a massive reload time, but the idea is this...

Good fights from people who want to kite and/or evade are tough to get sometimes because you cannot get a warp in. Quite frankly, the new changes will make small gang attack fleets who hit and run a new major player in eve. I respect this can be good, but provide a counter.

So, give a counter. Provide a small fast ship with a sole purpose of scanning, warping in and getting limited tackle and a warp in. Give it survivability but absolutely no DPS capability so it can solely be used for warping in and providing warp ins for fleets.

I understand there are variations to the idea as some folks in here have much more knowledge than I, but the general concept IMHO is valid.

These ships should be the fastest available, excellent scanning (possibly covert scanning which I think would be cool) with good tank, but no DPS.

Thoughts?


What's wrong with a cloaky tackle Proteus?

Or even a Lachesis (does not show up on DSCAN, remember?)


I still have a laugh when people were upset about the DScan Immunity, enough to where HAC resists were dropped from the Combat Recons.

But I agree with you, basically what the OP is describing is a T3C.

He is one I have had for a while...

[Tengu, FC]

Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

100MN Afterburner II
Scan Acquisition Array II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender

Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Cynosural Field Generator I
Covert Cynosural Field Generator I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Tengu Defensive - Supplemental Screening
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier

FC Legion would look like.

[Legion, FC]

Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Steel Plates II
1600mm Steel Plates II

Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Scan Acquisition Array II
50MN Microwarpdrive II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
Cynosural Field Generator I
Covert Cynosural Field Generator I
Auto Targeting System II
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Legion Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Legion Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier




Boom you have basically what your describing
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