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Replace Attributes with Activity-Affected Personal Indices

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-06-26 20:53:34 UTC
Wynta wrote:
I think they should replace learn implants with this... Convert Pirate implants to just the bonus without the attributes. Doing things related to each of the skills will increase them up to a maximum of 5. Ratting/PvP increased Will/Per. Industry, Mining, Explo increases Int/mem, Trade/Fleet Management increases Charisma.

Or just doing any of the above increases all stats by x.


Doing any of it will increase all stats by 0 so it's balanced and does not add any grind to the game.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#22 - 2015-06-26 22:01:24 UTC
I know. You can gain a single point to any attribute by removing a point from any other attribute. If only that system existed in the game!

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-06-26 22:45:31 UTC
An interesting idea but the ability to afk build indices is a worry. Unless that can be addressed then it has too many loopholes for me to support.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#24 - 2015-06-27 02:23:07 UTC
Absolutely not supported. Grinding for SP has no place in Eve and never should.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#25 - 2015-06-27 09:09:40 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Wynta wrote:
I think they should replace learn implants with this... Convert Pirate implants to just the bonus without the attributes. Doing things related to each of the skills will increase them up to a maximum of 5. Ratting/PvP increased Will/Per. Industry, Mining, Explo increases Int/mem, Trade/Fleet Management increases Charisma.

Or just doing any of the above increases all stats by x.


Doing any of it will increase all stats by 0 so it's balanced and does not add any grind to the game.

So, I am currently ratting, pvping, trading and exploring every day. Am I going to be punished now? Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-06-27 09:35:36 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Am I going to be punished now? Roll


Only if you've been a very naughty boy...
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-06-27 09:40:17 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
An interesting idea but the ability to afk build indices is a worry. Unless that can be addressed then it has too many loopholes for me to support.

m


The problem I see is that this could most likely be botted easily to create perfect niche characters more rapidly for sale/use.

The current system can't be gamed as far as I know so is perfectly fair even if imperfect in other ways.
Mynxee
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#28 - 2015-06-27 13:43:02 UTC
Thanks to everyone for comments so far. You raise good points about the grind and potential for AFKing such a system. Reading through opinions expressed, it occurs to me how amazingly difficult it must be to get the balance right for "progression" mechanics such that they are reasonably fair for all players regardless of their play style or time available to play. That said, I have always favored things that reward activity and engagement with the game rather than ship spinning or simply playing skill queue on line -- which is part of what sparked the original idea in the first place.

Lost in space, looking for sigs...

Blog: Cloaky Wanderer
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#29 - 2015-06-27 14:02:28 UTC
Mynxee wrote:
Thanks to everyone for comments so far. You raise good points about the grind and potential for AFKing such a system. Reading through opinions expressed, it occurs to me how amazingly difficult it must be to get the balance right for "progression" mechanics such that they are reasonably fair for all players regardless of their play style or time available to play. That said, I have always favored things that reward activity and engagement with the game rather than ship spinning or simply playing skill queue on line -- which is part of what sparked the original idea in the first place.


EVE has it pretty darned good, with 4 kinds of progression that matter.

ISK/asset progression is almost entirely effort based within a niche, with a diminishing return on invested assets but a slightly better than linear progression based on invested SP.

SP progression is almost entirely linear. It scales medium quickly with invested assets but these have a diminishing return relative to cost. It also scales better over a long term plan, favoring the patient and prepared.

Player skill progression is erratic and sub-divided fairly fine, with study time and time doing rewarded as heavily as a player can manage to make out of them. This above all favors the quick witted and clever.

Social progression is even more erratic and strange, with various ways of achieving notice generating different responses for different effort and talent levels as well as different personality types. This is the bit where you get FCs and other management types getting far ahead of most line pilots.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Mynxee
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
#30 - 2015-06-27 14:22:23 UTC
Great summary and observation, James!

Lost in space, looking for sigs...

Blog: Cloaky Wanderer
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#31 - 2015-06-28 15:33:19 UTC
Mynxee wrote:
I have always favored things that reward activity and engagement with the game rather than ship spinning or simply playing skill queue on line -- which is part of what sparked the original idea in the first place.

And here you have the fundamental problem that all online game companies face.
Where and how do you reward those who do spend more time in game without penalizing those who play less.
While it is far from perfect CCP has done an excellent job overall of finding a balance. At a basic level skills train at the same rate for all players so no one is really penalized for limited game time. Yet those who can and do play more benefit because they can afford better implants, boosters and better ships/fittings, in this way EvE overcomes many of the negative aspects of the real time skills training.
Jupp3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-07-07 23:39:04 UTC
I love this idea and I've been thinking about something similar too. Something that actually encourages active play and keeps new players logging in for daily or weekly bonuses? A theoretical possibility to "catch up" in eve? Seriously, whats wrong with that?

All bittervets with trillions of SP will lose some of their (alts) SP-lead but so what? Eve universe will have new players and that can only make great sp-toons' value even higher, though their relative sp-lead will grow smaller unless they play actively (and they should!).

Current system makes rich richer (with multiple accounts, plexing and implants). Eve universe is really harsh - in economy, in space and in character development. I love the harsh economy, understand the necessity of deadly battle ( though I hate encouragement for 5 vets vs 1 noob "battles" as a way to win eve and be a "winning player"). The character training could be made more encouraging and forgiving - and that would make eve universe a better place without sacrificing its unique aspects. Only ones who would (relatively) suffer would be passive sp-alts, which still would gain their passive SP-income - so I don't think CCP would actually lose revenue.

I know the idea is not perfect yet - but It could be balanced with diminishing returns (as so often in EVE) and careful planning. Maybe start with some skills that are easy to measure? Such as:

1. Mine 20.000m3 with a venture and gain 30% boost for ore-frigate training for one day.
Feeling a bit nolifer? grab 100.000m3 and gain 20% boost for a week.

2. Explore 5 sites and hack them - gain 30 % boost for scanning and hacking skills for day. ETC.

This could be implemented easily with non-combat skills. Combat skills are harder, I understand that.
Amount of total active boosts could be limited and with diminishing returns if you only focus in one area.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-07-08 01:18:21 UTC
Jupp3 wrote:
I love this idea and I've been thinking about something similar too. Something that actually encourages active play and keeps new players logging in for daily or weekly bonuses? A theoretical possibility to "catch up" in eve? Seriously, whats wrong with that?

All bittervets with trillions of SP will lose some of their (alts) SP-lead but so what? Eve universe will have new players and that can only make great sp-toons' value even higher, though their relative sp-lead will grow smaller unless they play actively (and they should!).

Current system makes rich richer (with multiple accounts, plexing and implants). Eve universe is really harsh - in economy, in space and in character development. I love the harsh economy, understand the necessity of deadly battle ( though I hate encouragement for 5 vets vs 1 noob "battles" as a way to win eve and be a "winning player"). The character training could be made more encouraging and forgiving - and that would make eve universe a better place without sacrificing its unique aspects. Only ones who would (relatively) suffer would be passive sp-alts, which still would gain their passive SP-income - so I don't think CCP would actually lose revenue.

I know the idea is not perfect yet - but It could be balanced with diminishing returns (as so often in EVE) and careful planning. Maybe start with some skills that are easy to measure? Such as:

1. Mine 20.000m3 with a venture and gain 30% boost for ore-frigate training for one day.
Feeling a bit nolifer? grab 100.000m3 and gain 20% boost for a week.

2. Explore 5 sites and hack them - gain 30 % boost for scanning and hacking skills for day. ETC.

This could be implemented easily with non-combat skills. Combat skills are harder, I understand that.
Amount of total active boosts could be limited and with diminishing returns if you only focus in one area.




so I afk my char doing something for a bit and get bonuses. Which I can do easy....tbh my first hours at home are doing family stuff. Put kid to bed then I hop on my char all warmed up. And you see nothing wrong with this?

Its malcanis' law. We vets/bitters have these skills maxed. You'd be giving us theoretical level 6 and higher skills. Where is the catching up you mention? We bitters are doing everything at well above skill level 5.

Hell where is the balance to some skills? CCP imo kind of plans max numbers for an ability on all skill level 5, implants/wires, max fleet booster and say effects like wh's. This gets them the magical max number they want you to have. Any more....balance not there potentially.

Your idea....I am overshooting this, real fast. Even your explore 5 sites is game breaking.

EFT this: Virtue implants, probe ship at CO 5, probe skills maxed, t2 probe mods fit. Put in 1 t2 probe rig. Quite the effective prober as is.

Now.....give it your 30% boosts. And tell me how that is not wtf broken.



Eve's gimmick is its the game for busy people. We like that when not playing we take no hits. Besides not playing the game or making isk as much ofc. Its a good market for CCP....for people like me it keeps me subbed. For the amount of time I play it if like any other game, I would have unsubbed long ago. I did this often with say Warhammer online. Crappy month scheduling...killed sub. They did not get my money for that month.

Eve....tbh I pay my 15 monthly and I probably don't even get 15 hours of play time. TTime I get is worth the 15. They make out good here. I am -1 player working grand financial schemes with say speculation. I make business side happy too. I give them 15 I get game time. I am straight +15 to the bank account. No fiddling around with plex generated/sold analysis to see if they are making money or not.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#34 - 2015-07-08 06:23:12 UTC
Ignoring the possible ways to game the system, this punishes people for wanting to explore a new avenue of the game. Since they will train less efficiently unless they are doing the activity, but they will be terribly inefficient at doing the activity until they train the skills, circular catch 22.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-07-08 07:13:52 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ignoring the possible ways to game the system, this punishes people for wanting to explore a new avenue of the game. Since they will train less efficiently unless they are doing the activity, but they will be terribly inefficient at doing the activity until they train the skills, circular catch 22.



that and not all do the activity they want to for the night. CTA in pvp corp (pick a region lol)....you fly the fleet ship for it you can bring. What happens when you really want to train for something else? You don't with these schemes.

Why the current is fine with me. When in 0.0 I trained my BS while running the fleet bc on ops. Not being penalized for doing the social MMO thing over some guy in empire eternally training his raven. Which with caldari is a double whammy....the most generally accepted fleet BS is Rokh. Kind of hard to train via active skill use for a generally active tanked hybrid boat when running a passive missile chucker most of the time really.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2015-07-08 07:24:06 UTC
I must immediately disagree with the premise, full stop.
When I came to EVE, the first thing that I found extremely good about training system is that you don't have to limit your activity to some particular tasks in order to train / speed up training. You can do anything while training anything without your training time being penalized because you don't grind bear arses / gather flowers etc.

IMO this is the single best aspect of EVE system with little to no drawbacks to it. I'd say we shouldn't mess with this idea.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Jupp3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-07-08 09:45:26 UTC

Hell where is the balance to some skills? CCP imo kind of plans max numbers for an ability on all skill level 5, implants/wires, max fleet booster and say effects like wh's. This gets them the magical max number they want you to have. Any more....balance not there potentially.

Your idea....I am overshooting this, real fast. Even your explore 5 sites is game breaking.

EFT this: Virtue implants, probe ship at CO 5, probe skills maxed, t2 probe mods fit. Put in 1 t2 probe rig. Quite the effective prober as is.

Now.....give it your 30% boosts. And tell me how that is not wtf broken.



Hi,

That is absolutely game breaking - you are right. I am sorry that my text was not written clearly - what I meant was 30% boost to skill TRAINING SPEED. Do you think that is game breaking?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#38 - 2015-07-09 00:55:28 UTC
Jupp3 wrote:

Hell where is the balance to some skills? CCP imo kind of plans max numbers for an ability on all skill level 5, implants/wires, max fleet booster and say effects like wh's. This gets them the magical max number they want you to have. Any more....balance not there potentially.

Your idea....I am overshooting this, real fast. Even your explore 5 sites is game breaking.

EFT this: Virtue implants, probe ship at CO 5, probe skills maxed, t2 probe mods fit. Put in 1 t2 probe rig. Quite the effective prober as is.

Now.....give it your 30% boosts. And tell me how that is not wtf broken.



Hi,

That is absolutely game breaking - you are right. I am sorry that my text was not written clearly - what I meant was 30% boost to skill TRAINING SPEED. Do you think that is game breaking?



Still is. Now I am farming skills on main and alts at a much faster rate. Malcanis' law again. After a few alt creations...I have gotten good at not wasting SP. I can get them up faster than a newer player who loses time to unneeded skill trains. Or skills I have found through years of play just not all the good or don't need to be maxed out. .

Take two overtanked permaruns (alt and main) and tweak skills shooting each other with whatever.

Get really motivated I could wake up an iced accounvt, set up pos', war dec myself,,,,,and the possibilities are endless.
I have a semi built cap alt on ice. Needs some repping and drone tweaks. You know how much easier this with active use boosts? I wake up the account, setup a pos on main account, war dec main account corp and shoot that pos with drones from a rattlesnake.

All day long even at work or out on the weekends. T1 drones and spec'd pos hards to make sure it doesn't die. Not like a solo rattler will kill a large in 9 hours...but just in case.

Reppers in high slots with a cap stable build to run that up as well bonused.

Main gets his too....his pos gun skills lacking. Make it a FU pos (scram/jam heavy)....run that skill up boosted training. Not like I care if rattler scrammed. I'd overtank it in case of bored lol gankers ofc. May kill it while at work. I'd make sure concord draws up a nice body count in the process though.


You see...I would meet your definition of active here. I am doing something. On 2 accounts no less. Am I really active? Nope. this I'd set up before going to work. then go to work and not touch eve till I came home again.

Do I have the isk to do this...yep. Do I have the spare 15 to cover the added account over this main one...yep. If the training pays off the cost is worth it.



This was the abuse seen long ago. The true OG bitters in EVE version 0.x (beta/alpha eve in other words) saw this. Ask them about it. Eve had this in beta iirc the bitter stories correctly. And they ran a train on it. Why it in eve version 1.0 (production level) it was not there.
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