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Dev blog: Missile guidance modules, the Hecate and balance updates

First post
Author
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#21 - 2015-07-06 21:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
You spelled transition wrong. YOU SPELLED TRANSITION WRONG!!! AWGHFABFFFFFFFFf


Anyways torpoedos already didn't make sense fitting so many in a stealth bomber size wise and now it's going to make less sense.

Lastly my hecate is going to be PVE fit! With a salvager! I may even sacrifice a turret for scanners.

edit: CCP also plans sov updates in a week after tomorrow.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

stoicfaux
#22 - 2015-07-06 22:40:41 UTC
Fzhal wrote:
Turrets have tracking enhancers so that larger guns can hit smaller/faster ships, now missiles will. Sounds fair?
Tonrak awesomesauce, as you said, medium slots are at a premium, so the mid modules will be rarely used except for in PVE. So in PVP you should only expect to see the low modules used. This means that they will be trading a straight damage enhancer for the equivalent of a tracking enhancer. Missile ships will now be able to further customize their ship's role by reducing damage to big ships for extra damage against fast/small ships.

If I still flew my Golem, I would swap the 4th bonused PWNAGE TP for a MGC II w/Precision script for a slight improvement that probably isn't worth the time to fly to a hub and buy the MGC II and script. Straight On the positive side, the stacking penalty on two rigs is pretty slight, but the folks with three rigor rigs will probably want/need to swap one for a flare.

Also, a 16 CPU PWNAGE TP outperforms a 35 CPU MGC II w/Precision script. Straight

How many PvP fits current carry 2 TPs and no rigor/flare rigs? Those fits can swap the 2nd TP for an MGC which would be a boost due to TPs and MGCs not stacking with each other. Straight

However, if you're in a fleet and Someone Else(tm) is providing the TPs, then the MGC makes sense over a TP (assuming you have the CPU to spare.) What?

You can also treat a MGC II w/Precision as Rigor I + Flare I which essentially lets you use a mid to free up two rig slots. But I'm still waiting for someone to post a fit that takes advantage of that. What?

/grumble

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Mario Putzo
#23 - 2015-07-07 00:40:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
stoicfaux wrote:

You can also treat a MGC II w/Precision as Rigor I + Flare I which essentially lets you use a mid to free up two rig slots. But I'm still waiting for someone to post a fit that takes advantage of that. What?

/grumble


HAM Sac could probably shine tbh which means HAM Legion might be a real thing...although its a bit tougher to fit and less rangey but boy oh boy that tank. Garnish with some Rapiers...my oh my.
Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-07-07 01:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nafensoriel
Except that thanks to the stacking pen you wont really see that 5% damage buff in the wild.

Basically what we got was all other platforms nerfed and HM remaining exactly where they were.

Oh yes.. and CCP still thinking this somehow makes missiles better... which still doesn't add up.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2015-07-07 03:37:43 UTC
Quote:
We were looking into a set of Battleship and Battlecruiser changes as well, but unfortunately we had to delay most of that pass until a later release.
GGRRRRRRREEJEIWIOWOSHDBDIDIJDHDJSKKAPPWJWNBXNOCDWII!!!!!!!
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
Evil Monkies Incorporated
#26 - 2015-07-07 05:40:58 UTC
Will be intresting to see how the new missile changes unfold and hecate Smile
To bad you guys had to delay the battlecruiser changes, perhaps you can release them when in 1-2 week when the next part of the sov change is coming? Idea
Poke InTheEye
Doomheim
#27 - 2015-07-07 06:18:03 UTC
" The Gila, Dominix, Tristan, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, and Stratios all make top lists for usage and damage in their respective classes. "

I'd be interested to know where the Amarr drone boats land. Why aren't the Geddon, Pilgrim, Curse, Arbitrator, Crucifier, and Sentinal on the list? WTB Amarr love.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#28 - 2015-07-07 10:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP Rise wrote:
I'm getting the stacking penalty changes added to the patch notes as we speak. Sorry for any confusion about that.

Bonuses to missile explosion velocity and explosion radius will both be stacking penalized on rigs and modules after Aegis.


Stealth Nerf level V

Poor missiles, between the pre-nerfed jackdaw as slow as a Mauler, the ridiculously small hp and resist increase against firewalling, and the pre-nerfed missile modules with the lowest impact of all time on effective dps due to application... Way to go for making people hope before crushing it mercylessly... Way to go CCP.

Lets be reasonable here, nobody is going to use more missile ships in fleet comps post Aegis. Who would want a weapon system that requires the target to be motionless AND warned in advance of the incoming damage AND will be able to mitigate 75% of it with a single firewall...

That damage application stealth nerf really was what we needed! I will enjoy it as much as my jump fatigue while moving my dread from fountain to low sec.

Oh wait, I will probably loose it on the way home because I'll get dropped by reckless supers now that the jump changes made them even more broken in their local area by elimating every threat of being dropped by another entity...

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-07-07 11:41:43 UTC
so strange that from "guys we're going to something for missiles users and on top of that we're giving heavy missiles a straight buff"

it ends with logging in and finding out that my 40% Explosion radius bonus turned in to a 37.38% bonus

but no problem if you have cpu to spare and remove a current mid-slot you can get 5,5 something % bonus, oh and that mid slot cant be your target painters or it is useless.
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#30 - 2015-07-07 12:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
I despair that we're never actually going to see missiles balanced properly, damage-type locks removed, or the missile skilltree fixed. Also some of the videos for FOF not working are hilariously sad, and defender missiles are still useless.

Considering these missile mods are coming out pre-nerfed with no feedback acknowledged on the thread except for that one post (classic Rise btw). And the fact that it was hinted that on top of the stacking penalty on missile rigs, we can look forward to Missile disruption modules to further reduce any effectiveness we could have hoped to gain from these modules.

Can really feel the love here CCP.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#31 - 2015-07-07 13:55:34 UTC
Nafensoriel wrote:
Many of us are still waiting for rise to HTFU and post some numbers. I'm extremely curious as to what fit scared the balance team into gutting the missile balance package before it was even available to test by players... and since you did gut the mods before you even fully gave us a preview of them only the balance team knows how well or poorly they would have done pre nerf.


Though that said this is the first time in CCP history that a new item has been both released AND nerfed before players ever fit them.


MGCs were available on sisi at the original numbers for at least 2 days. The range bonus was OP at 42% scripted. Do you like 120km RLML Cerbs? The application bonuses were not OP as far as I could tell. But they were effective.

I have a spreadsheet that does the numbers to within 4 significant digits, and is .1% accurate on all stats. I found very little to concern me when it came to large missiles like torpedoes or cruise missiles. The problems were with missiles that are already a bit OP; namely light missiles. Your standard light missile frigate has more range than a Confessor or Svipul in sharpshooter mode even before MGCs are used.

Also, the MGCs have been in EFT for at least a week if not 2. So numbers have been available for anyone that wants to check them.


http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#32 - 2015-07-07 13:58:19 UTC
Poke InTheEye wrote:
" The Gila, Dominix, Tristan, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, and Stratios all make top lists for usage and damage in their respective classes. "

I'd be interested to know where the Amarr drone boats land. Why aren't the Geddon, Pilgrim, Curse, Arbitrator, Crucifier, and Sentinal on the list? WTB Amarr love.


I recall Fozzie saying that Armageddon was #2 in the BS class. Because of drones.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Nafensoriel
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-07-07 15:41:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nafensoriel
Soldarius wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
Many of us are still waiting for rise to HTFU and post some numbers. I'm extremely curious as to what fit scared the balance team into gutting the missile balance package before it was even available to test by players... and since you did gut the mods before you even fully gave us a preview of them only the balance team knows how well or poorly they would have done pre nerf.


Though that said this is the first time in CCP history that a new item has been both released AND nerfed before players ever fit them.


MGCs were available on sisi at the original numbers for at least 2 days. The range bonus was OP at 42% scripted. Do you like 120km RLML Cerbs? The application bonuses were not OP as far as I could tell. But they were effective.

I have a spreadsheet that does the numbers to within 4 significant digits, and is .1% accurate on all stats. I found very little to concern me when it came to large missiles like torpedoes or cruise missiles. The problems were with missiles that are already a bit OP; namely light missiles. Your standard light missile frigate has more range than a Confessor or Svipul in sharpshooter mode even before MGCs are used.

Also, the MGCs have been in EFT for at least a week if not 2. So numbers have been available for anyone that wants to check them.




Actually no. They were not. Rise stated himself the mods were broken on sisi and not applying all stats properly. Then before fixing them to actually apply properly they were nerfed. No player ever saw the actual pre nerfed mods under gameplay conditions.

Also 120km cerbs? To counter 120km ishtars? Yes please. Additionally to DO that.. a cerb really needs to fit a 3 slot tank. That EM hole.. such op.

Additionally EFT warrioring is not gameplay conditions. Sure it can give you plenty of numbers but numbers can always get skewed by user actions. Perfect on the engineering table is not perfect in real life as we so often find out.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-07-07 16:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
I'm not too concerned about the new stacking penalties for the missile rigs, because from where i see it the only ship they have a serious effect on are bombers.

Larger ships with more slots to fit the new application mods will be better off overall since they won't be forced to sacrifice rig slots for application any more, and said modules affect MORE than just one modifier, so it really is a win for everyone except the bomber crowd. My Caracals and Ravens will be very happy after this change, and i expect to see the Sacrilege to get a little stronger with the new missile guidance computers.
stoicfaux
#35 - 2015-07-07 17:11:32 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I'm not too concerned about the new stacking penalties for the missile rigs, because from where i see it the only ship they have a serious effect on are bombers.

Nope. Two stacking rigors isn't a big deal: 73.9% explosion radius versus the old 72.3%. And bombers don't have the CPU or slots to go nuts with the new missile guidance mods. And a 16 CPU TP is better than a 35 CPU MGC II. And bomber torps have plenty of range as is.

The MGC could benefit bomber fleets that have plenty of TPs already and that can fit a CPU intensive MGC in place of a existing TP.


Quote:
Larger ships with more slots to fit the new application mods will be better off overall since they won't be forced to sacrifice rig slots for application any more, and said modules affect MORE than just one modifier, so it really is a win for everyone except the bomber crowd. My Caracals and Ravens will be very happy after this change, and i expect to see the Sac to get a little stronger with the new missile guidance computers.

Post fits. If someone else is providing TPs and/or tackle, if you're doing extreme range missile sniping, etc., then the MGC is probably a good choice over a TP. If you currently mount multiple TPs, then the MGC could be a good replacement for the 2nd TP. Aside from that, the MGC and MGE appear a bit underwhelming.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-07-07 18:54:31 UTC
I'll be suggesting to BL leadership that F-88's new station name will be: CCP FIX MISSILES 4 REAL KTHANKS
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#37 - 2015-07-08 01:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Soldarius wrote:
Nafensoriel wrote:
Many of us are still waiting for rise to HTFU and post some numbers. I'm extremely curious as to what fit scared the balance team into gutting the missile balance package before it was even available to test by players... and since you did gut the mods before you even fully gave us a preview of them only the balance team knows how well or poorly they would have done pre nerf.


Though that said this is the first time in CCP history that a new item has been both released AND nerfed before players ever fit them.


MGCs were available on sisi at the original numbers for at least 2 days. The range bonus was OP at 42% scripted. Do you like 120km RLML Cerbs? The application bonuses were not OP as far as I could tell. But they were effective.

I have a spreadsheet that does the numbers to within 4 significant digits, and is .1% accurate on all stats. I found very little to concern me when it came to large missiles like torpedoes or cruise missiles. The problems were with missiles that are already a bit OP; namely light missiles. Your standard light missile frigate has more range than a Confessor or Svipul in sharpshooter mode even before MGCs are used.

Also, the MGCs have been in EFT for at least a week if not 2. So numbers have been available for anyone that wants to check them.




WTF fights at 120k? It isn't happening in lowsec so I can only assume it's a null-sec thing. Maybe you can bubble someone and get some use out of 120k rlmls. In low sec anything outside 20k just means your opponent warps off at will. Hard to be OP when it's useless to have more than 20k range in most pvp encounters. Not everyone is running around with linked garmurs to hold point while they sit off safely at 100+k lobbing missiles and idiotic to call something op and nerf every solo piloted missile boat in eve based on potential fleet application. Well, it should be anyway. CCP have proven they are more than willing to do so. If bombers were a problem fix bombers, if ishtars are a problem fix ishtars. STOP the mindless nuking of entire weapon systems with total disregard for the effect on ships that aren't OP due to their individual bonuses. Not to mention total disregard for the fact that the slot layouts on these ships were never meant to accommodate these extra mid/low slot modules. Why even bother with low slot missile enhancers when half the missile boats have all of 2 slots available and how can you say "trade a tank module" for one of these steaming pieces of crap? Most missile boats are already low on DPS and average to sub par on tank and this is what we get for improvements? Entire thought process is brain dead.

Stated before and I'll state it again. This so called Aegis "package" is a bag of feces.

AND FIX THE G.D. LAUNCHER OR GET RID OF IT!!!!!!
(apologies, I was attempting to update and start client as I was posting that and it took no less that 5 restarts of the launcher to get it to complete without freezing up (with the pre-release launcher installed) and I got a little irritable.)

Daemun of Khanid

Beanhead2
The Bean Consortium
#38 - 2015-07-08 02:54:04 UTC
Thank you guys for another smooth release! Big smile I was wondering if we will see a re-balance of navy battleships soon? my navy apoc is feeling left out.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#39 - 2015-07-08 15:53:52 UTC
Was actually going through my ship fits last night to see what ships I might actually use these missile modules on and noticed a funny thing. Pretty much every ship I could actually use one on without totally gimping the DPS or EHP of the fit turned out to be non-caldari. Who of course just happen to be the primary missile users. Maybe that has something to do with slot layout balancing.... Roll Aegis is full of win.

Daemun of Khanid

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#40 - 2015-07-08 16:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Soldarius wrote:

Also, the MGCs have been in EFT for at least a week if not 2. So numbers have been available for anyone that wants to check them.


Curious what version of EFT you're using and where you got it. Version 2.30.1 is the most recent version I've come across, was released 26 june and does not have the MGC's or MGE's. Perhaps you meant PYFA?

Daemun of Khanid

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