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Barrier to entry is time and expense of T2 stuff, not skill points
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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#21 - 2015-07-07 13:28:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Maekchu wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


Stop making excuses.


Was just about to link to the same video. Suitonia has several other videos displaying what can be done with very young characters.

EVE PvP is more a game of rock-paper-scissors, than a game of raw stats. Just go out there and learn what you can engage!


+1 That video Gregor linked is spot on.

People say new players can't do anything, there are videos showing other wise. People say you can't pvp with industrial, Marlona Sky's video proves otherwise, as well as other things like EVE-Radio's "Industrial Revolution" roams. Hell, there are SEVERAL posts in the ships and mods forum about how battleships are useless, ironically every one of those threads contains videos of people using battleship sized ships to wtfpwn people lol.

The truth is that people will never stop making excuses, because that would mean taking a good hard look at what they are doing wrong, and we can't have that lol.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-07-07 13:32:39 UTC
I would word that differently. People never start looking at themselves, because it could reveal a truth they have been protected from for most of their lives.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#23 - 2015-07-07 13:35:53 UTC
Wut? I don't get what you are trying to say OP, your conclusion. Are you trying to say vets should biomass their low SP alts (yes we all have them) because it's not fair they took the time to l2p and fly well while others are lazy or too busy playing other games to become effective with the same ships and fits? It's... just... not... fair Cry

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-07-07 13:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldfinch
When one spoils the child with gifts, the child will put out its hand and demand more.

Free skill points, which are not even in official plan, are not enough. Now the anklebiter feels entitled. Give me income! Give me more toys!

The child needs discipline and it needs God. The spankings will continue until morale improves!

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#25 - 2015-07-07 13:37:18 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.

The cost issue is easily solved:

PLEX

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Jenshae Chiroptera
#26 - 2015-07-07 13:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
After years of "power inflation" and literal inflation, people are seeing that not many people are jumping in and fighting. ... it would still leave the cost element intact.....
... and this would still leave the greater skill element, the knowledge of fitting element, stocking stations, tactics, strategies, flying, grouping, compositions so on and so forth.
Many, many factors that CCP is trying with code but can not counter enough, as it requires those players to leave or to develop amnesia. (A server reset would not matter. Veterans would burn to the front of the race and make new players even more sulky)

All that you want to do will result in harm and still not give you what you want.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-07-07 13:41:09 UTC
Goldfinch wrote:
When one spoils the child with gifts, the child will put out its hand and demand more.

Free skill points, which are not even in official plan, are not enough. Now the anklebiter feels entitled. Give me income! Give me more toys!

The child needs discipline and it needs God. The spankings will continue until morale improves!

I agree, except for the part with the imaginary friend. People should believe in themselves instead.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Melissa Redoran
#28 - 2015-07-07 13:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Melissa Redoran
Count of MonteCylon wrote:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items.
...
If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.


Often Meta Items could be prefered over T2, Faction, Officer or else.
Required SP to fly such fittings should be lower then for T2 fit. (correct me if I´m wrong)
Also they are way cheaper then t2.
+ fitting with metaitems gives you more flexibility and options *eftwarrior 4 the win*

After gaining some experience in what a ship is capable of, how you activly fly it or even which opponent you like to face with it - cheapest fitting can also be best fitting sometimes.

EVE itself is not like many casual PVP games, where you can login and have instant fun without "working" for your equipment.
(I know... plexing ... )
But if you join one of the many social groups in eve, your mates there may be happy to create the needed content for an eve-experience like this for you.
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-07-07 13:54:44 UTC
You can squash both Time + Expense buy buying PLEX right now. Well, not "expense" technically, but in-game expense. Your problem will be solved right now. I find skill points to be the only real expense in the game, and I do like it that way.

People complain about the game being expensive compared to "modern MMO" but while I find so sooo much wrong with EVE, I don't mind this aspect because it's the only online game that's worth playing for this long. Hopefully the numbers problem will recover in time.
Klas Kanjus
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-07-07 14:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Klas Kanjus
Niriel Greez wrote:
Making the game more accessible to new players in the form of reducing the skill investment for T2 stuff as well as reducing core skills across the board could only be a positive thing for the game as a whole.

Now, reducing the effort it takes to purchase said items isn't; because if you're too lazy or incompetent to fund it, you frankly don't deserve it.


Or, if you're too lazy to skill it you probably don't deserve it.

As for ISK.... join a corp. My first corp in high sec my mates let me salvage L4 missions as they ran them or they'd give me a T1 cruiser and have me shoot frigs.

When I moved to Null 8 months in one of my corpies gave me a Domi with faction drones...voila 12-15 mil ISK ticks.


I don't want WOW. I want EvE. EVE isn't for everyone and that's NOT a bad thing. EvE is about consequences, risk, and reward. You earn your **** in EvE, and you build relationships with people who help you achieve.

This whole "but I want EvE to be convenient for me me me right now now now crowd is what WILL kill EVE if you ever get your way. Perhaps not in a business sense...but certainly the unique and hardcore itch that EvE scratches for the vast majority of its current player base. That will be a sad day if it ever comes b/c there are few alternatives if any like it.

You want instant gratification? Go play Elite Dangerous or send your money to Star Citizen. But please stop pooping in our sandbox.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#31 - 2015-07-07 14:05:08 UTC
T2 mods and weapons for frigs are generally cheaper than most of the lower skill stuff apart from basic T1. Best bang for your isk usually. Easy enough to get a full fit with 1mo of training, as one of my alts has.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#32 - 2015-07-07 14:15:20 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.
TL;DR The people who have taken the time to master something are better at it than the people who haven't.

Welcome to the human condition.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-07-07 14:18:03 UTC
Jonah! That was damn close to the answer of my questions! Lol

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Ivant Sumboodi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-07-07 14:19:56 UTC
Guys like this make me worry, consider this-

they got rid of Learning Skills in 2008, they got rid of clones/upgrades/sp loss in 2013(2014? cant remember), so what'll happen 4 years from now? Getting rid of SP as we know it?
Naga Elohim
Aeras Krekan Syndicate
#35 - 2015-07-07 14:33:46 UTC
Set up a PI farm.
Use the proceeds to buy T2 gear.
Rinse and repeat.

It's easy when you know how! Big smile
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#36 - 2015-07-07 14:33:57 UTC
Ivant Sumboodi wrote:
Guys like this make me worry, consider this-

they got rid of Learning Skills in 2008, they got rid of clones/upgrades/sp loss in 2013(2014? cant remember), so what'll happen 4 years from now? Getting rid of SP as we know it?

Would still be too hard for some.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Jenshae Chiroptera
#37 - 2015-07-07 18:29:41 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Would still be too hard for some.
Some?
You have spoken to average people lately?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2015-07-07 18:48:37 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
I posted this in another thread but figure it's worth making my own just to see if anyone agrees with me. I have a feeling that this will make more established players cringe but I do believe it's true:

The challenge in making Eve accessible from a PvP standpoint isn't in the number of skill points that people start in, it's related to the expense as well as to the time required before you can "afford to lose" the T2 and higher items. Giving me more skill points to begin with won't meaningfully shrink the gap because it'll still be months at least before it's economically worth it for me to fly the things that dominate the PvP game. If I play casually (which I do) it's never worth it and between that and the long waits inherent to Eve PvP it's fundamentally not worth it for me to treat this as a PvP game.

Tl;dr -- giving me more SP won't make it cost effective for me to fly the good stuff against older players or players who have way more time to spend on the game than I do.


So you are basically telling the audience, that due to the fact you have time restraints, you are to be catered to?
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-07-07 19:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Time can not be barrier. The ONLY possible occation when that happens is when you can literally count the remaining days of your lifetime. As it would be unfair to change everything for 1 of 150.000 people dieing daily, and because time can not ever be a barrier, I declare



/thread.


Time always flows. The problem is that there are people who mistake Eve for an arcade game and we notice their bad influence in respect to our game. They believe they should have a say in things, but aren't even really a part of it. Most demands and wishes of these people result in saving time and/or challenges and skipping parts of the game to get to that which they then lower down to their primitive kind of FUN! You guys are like fw isk farmers. You suck the life out of this game!

EVE ONLINE is not arcade game, where you jump into the fun! You have no idea, mate.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-07-07 19:29:54 UTC
Those with the advantages will make whatever case they can to keep them.

We don't want competition here.

More Easy wins and QQ please