Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Well, I don't talk about Goons and Tests, because they can't kill small-medium alliance and doesn't matter what they do.
We survived Tests invasion and even kill them, but most dangerous was always when some key members in small-medium alliances leave Eve and simply nearest alliances gone from Eve and because of it we had nothing to kill, noone roam like before, simply no traffic and no events for small-med groups.

And here absolutely doesn't matter what Goons can do and whom they ble to kill in HS or zero space - it doesn't change number of pilots in game or because of they's action people will not leave Eve, but vecause of CCP stupid action - people leave, and if 1-2 key players leave - leave hundreds of other players too. And this is killing Eve, not Goons. If alliance gone - noone will join they, they's friends will not join them and play Eve, it's simple.

I think you underlined one of the huge problems EVE currently has while complaining about something that makes zero sense.

First of all, there was obivously a period of time where there were no "old" players. All EVE players were relatively "new" EVE players, and they created content for themselves. The problem is that nowadays there's literally so much high-level gameplay going on that being a newbro with garbage skills is simply less fun than it used to be. When I started playing EVE for the first time in 2006, it was rare to see a battleship fleet. If I hopped in a ****** T1 frigate and went to Providence, the first person I PvP'd would probably be in the same boat. By 2015 people have had literally more than 10 years to discover and perfect the absolute best risk minimization tactics in a game that encourages exactly that.

In order to find fun content, the bulk of new players will swarm to veterans to create content for them. This doesn't mean that CCP should constantly cottle the veterans and bend to their desires, it means that CCP should be looking at why the ideal experience for a new player is to join a corp with 15,000 other new players. Ten years ago it was okay to just "be bad" because so many other people were "just bad". With the average SP being so high nowadays, all of the "bads" do best by grouping up and being led by a veteran, which doesn't teach them to be independent or create their own content.

^^ Ignore Iain man, he literally posts in every thread in Features & Suggestions and ***** on everything everyone says, including CCP. He isn't interested in having any sort of constructive conversation, he just wants to talk down to people like he's "smart" or something

I really hate agreeing with Rivr, but yeah, he's said it. If you think removing these skills is the answer, then you need to find a different game. If you are unwilling to use these skills to teach new players the importance of training skills thoroughly, but would rather cut their knees out by handing them super freebies, then you also need to consider a new game. Further, you're not even in the same ball park with reality when you say there is no reason to have a skill if you start it at 3. Small hybrids 3 won't allow you to train T2 blasters, nor get the full 25% damage bonus from the skill. Same with the engineering skills. I would not be opposed to them having a faster train time or starting a higher level than they do, but removing them or granting them at 5 would be a bad decision. You can do PLENTY with them not at 5. Your opinion that they are 'mandatory' is also erroneous. You don't have to train them. You don't have to train weapons, drones, anything. You choose to. Your point is not a point. Have fun beating this dead horse.

Go find a new game. Isk for skills? Get out. Instant l5? Get out. This is not the game for you.

I didn't say removing those skills was the answer... I said it would reduce the learning curve and increase how soon a newbro can become competitively engaged in the game.

As far as giving them lvl 3 of said skills, it's pointless because you're saving them all of maybe 5 hours per each skill.
You still would have close to a month of training time in order to be able to optimize fits or which ever attributes these skills effect.
The ships are fully capable of limiting these factors themselves, and we don't need these skills to add to the confusion.

As far as comparing these to blaster skills, that's not a valid comparison, as these are a dedication to a line of weaponry, which is optional. You can choose blasters, rails, arty, AC, assault missiles, guided missiles, etc. etc. etc...
However, if you're wanting to use ships for something more than shooting belt rats in HS, you're not doing it right if you don't max out the skills I listed. They are not optional... It doesn't matter what aspect of piloting you involve yourself in, if you're not building an optimized fit that requires these skills at max, then you fit is significantly hindered compared to your competition.

You didn't HAVE to train learning skills when they were around, but you'd be an idiot not to.
As CCP said then, and with med clones, it's an illusion of choice.. A choice between loss, or loss.... You either lose training time, or you lose fitting/efficiency capability.
Dedicating yourself to a ship line, or to a weapon line is one thing.


I also consider the end of your comment to be as troll as you can possibly get.
Of course training anything is optional, because the game is optional.
But, if you're playing the game and playing it with the intent of becoming better; then the skills I listed are non-negotiable.
You will need to train them at some point.

Your considerations are invalid. You keep proving how little you actually understand. It doesn't matter if you save new players 5 minutes or 5 hours. If you grant skills at level 3, especially the beginning ones, you're giving them enough to work with, that they may get in, get their hands dirty, and decide what they want to train. You're giving them 15 of the maximum 25% bonus those skills offer, or 6 of the maximum 10, as the case applies. There is also no reason they can't be modified to train faster, s they don't take as long for Level 5, but in the same sentence, 4 days for capacitor systems operation 5 is not bad. There are ALOT of other things you should train before you train that skill to 5, and that is made more than evident by comparing skill times of say, gunnery 3 and 4 to capacitor sys. Op. 5. Comparing them to blasters is completely relevant. They are both skills that you can choose to train or not to train, and they both work on the percent per level basis.


Your belief that skills need to be removed because you don't see the point is absolutely incorrect. I'm really done wasting my time with you saying the same thing over and over and over. Broken record. And I was not trolling. I was being dead serious. You can choose, or NOT choose to train anything. No skills are mandatory. Undocking is not mandatory. In Eve, you either choose to do things, or you choose not to. You don't get given free stuff for choosing to not choose. If you can't get along with that, then please contract me your stuff and uninstall. If you play this game long enough, all skills are non-negotiable, because you run out of things to train. You are absolutely free to train anything in whatever order you want(allowance made for prerequisites). You can be completely effective in PVP without having a single weapons system trained. You can be completely effective in mining without being able to use a mining laser or mining drones, without being able to mine at all.


There is also a distinct difference between learning skills and these skills. Learning skills provided no benefit to ANY activity in Eve. There was not a single thing you could undock and do that would benefit from training learning skills. Most the skills on your list apply a direct benefit to something. The one or two that do not, looking again at Jury Rigging, by all means remove that. The others, no. They all apply a direct benefit to something(barring that one or two) and you don't HAVE to train them to play Eve. You are also not required to see the point of them for them to have a point that everyone else sees and accepts as truth.


Then you get the sense of accomplishment by being able to log back in on your second day and see 15 skills complete that you're suggesting needs to be taken away by taking those rank 1 skills away. That is an entirely different subject on its own. But also one you'll have to find someone else to discuss it with. I had my doubts about you to begin with, but now I'm quite certain, and will act accordingly to continued observation of yourself.

I've been hearing this suggestion a lot lately and it's one of the worst ideas ever.

What in the world are you going on about in this part of your comment?

I get that you and I don't agree, but this is just.... wow....

I would very much love to see a player that has retained an account with no trained skills and never having undocked,

See, it's this part of your last comment that made me think you're trolling.
You may not be intentionally trolling, but to consider that anyone would have an account that is basically used for nothing but chatting is just... wow...

I can understand not undocking, but if you're not at least training skills, then you're not playing the game, you're logging in... That's it.

I would also like to see who exactly you're explaining as completely effective at mining, if they're not even mining...
How does that work? Do they just smash into the roid until their hull is full? Cause if that was possible, that would be awesome, but also still considered mining.

I can understand you disagreeing with me, but don't try to marginalize every skill in the game as if they're nothing more than the skills I listed.
Sure, you don't have to train any of them, you also don't have to fit your Titan in order to Cyno it into the heart of enemy territory.
However,much like that Titan example, you'd be an idiot not to maximize those skills.

You push and push to say that they're not mandatory, but you and I both know that in the game of Eve, maximizing your capabilities is extremely important if you want to be competitive.
To me, it's like saying you don't need more than a 1st grade reading level in order to read The Art of War...
You may not need a higher reading level, but you're gonna have a whole lot of problems, and likely going to be skipping some words.

That's fine if you want them, and for all intend and purposes, CCP can also want them. But this lowest level of intelligence/curious drive should not be the indicator on where to move the game or the NPE to. Higher standards and a higher degree of implied independence from game provided help ought to be implied because this is what the game demands from you at later stages after you got addicted. However, if you want these "idiots" (quoted from Phoenix Jones) in the game, then you are obliged hereby to teach them and help them and support them to become less of an idiot and turn into an EVE player that actually contributes more to the game than paying CCP for useless and meaningless content, such as more money grabs aka SKINS.
Personally, however, I do not really need more BRAVE in the game to farm them. That is utterly unsatisfying. To me, "farming BRAVE" is akin to farming NPCs in the next Forsaken Hub. The only downside? BRAVE does not give me money for doing it. So, every time someone suggests going to BRAVE space to get some "action", I leave the fleet and rather go hunt NPC.

Aerasia, I wonder where I am wrong. I stated on multiple occasions that more SP does not help them at all. They can fly things faster they do not understand (impressively demonstrated by Phoenix Jones, I have to thank him for that) nor can they afford them. If that is improving the NPE in your opinion and I am wrong on it, then I rest my case. I also posted several ways or at least improvements to parts of the NPE that actually improve and better it. Whereas you and other people are so focused on SP, that you lose sight for what's really wrong with the matter. But by all means, continue to ride that train.

Joe Risalo, yes they would need to train them to become better at handling their tools. That is the entire purpose of the skills: You become better at what you do over time. However, I fail to see how this has anything to do with NPE. I conceded so far that can get more SP in some of the more vital core skills to have a wider variety of actions available to them right from the start. That's accomplished with giving them the skills at level 1 or 3 at the bottom of this list and only these. With these skills they could do every possible thing available in the game that's feasible to do for a newbie. Whether they are actually able to do something with the increased SP count, is highly questionable as evidently shown by Phoenix' reddit poster. Every other skill, that are mentioned in this list as well as by you all the time, are necessary skills to improve the performance of your tools over time. They have absolutely no connection to what the NPE is about.
As you stated wonderfully in your last post: One cannot read The Art of War with 1st grade reading comprehension. However, giving people 7th grade reading comprehension right from the start does not make them capable of reading or understanding The Art of War either. They might be able to read the letters, but they do not understand the meaning of them as they just see words and do not have the experience or knowledge to understand the deeper meaning and connection between them in this work. It is mandatory for a student to learn these meta skills by slowly and steadily improving the reading comprehension and many other personal skills. Same goes for the skills that you want to see rolled into a char right away.