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Next iteration of overview/bracket icons on Singularity

First post
Author
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#261 - 2015-06-29 21:07:48 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why do we have 8 icons for asteroids when 1 was previously sufficient?


You have 1 that indicates the site itself and then 1 for each type of variant
Base - Veldspar
+5% - Concentrated Veldspar
+10% - Dense Veldpsar

This is the same with Ice belts and their asteroids.

Is it not useful to know which is the better one? Especially for people that do not know all the variants off the top of their head? They now just need to know that bigger icon with asteroids is the better denser one?


Frankly, no, it is not 'better'....it just adds waay more clutter than is needed. Why does the Survey Scanner exist? Because if someone wants to know (other than just by looking at the physical size in space) which rock has more in it, they can, otherwise, if they simply don't care...they don't fit the module.

As to the usefulness of cluttering the overview with many superfluous icons to 'inform' them as to which rocks are 'better'...do you have plans to do this same thing with all ship brackets, so that way people don't have to remember which ships are kitting ships and which are brawlers off the top of their head? (please don't do this btw, just using it as an example as to why too much info everywhere isn't always the best thing)

Pretty quickly new miners learn what they need to mine, just like every other profession in Eve. There is no need to add pointless clutter. (which they also have to memorize before they get the benefits of it too) Just like we didn't need 27 separate drone icons...a single icon for asteroids is sufficient...
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#262 - 2015-06-29 21:47:16 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP Claymore wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why do we have 8 icons for asteroids when 1 was previously sufficient?


You have 1 that indicates the site itself and then 1 for each type of variant
Base - Veldspar
+5% - Concentrated Veldspar
+10% - Dense Veldpsar

This is the same with Ice belts and their asteroids.

Is it not useful to know which is the better one? Especially for people that do not know all the variants off the top of their head? They now just need to know that bigger icon with asteroids is the better denser one?


I can understand the desire to provide the maximum information possible, but this needs to be balanced by preventing information overload. Mining is not a fast paced twitch operation, where an instant display of quality is demanded IN ADDITION to the text identifying the type. By having so much information present in the icons, it moves beyond adequate information, firmly into the realms of clutter.

This applies to other items ie cargo containers, please, in UI design less is definately more. This has been proven many times over the years, in many fields.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but, The temptation to reinvent the wheel is always with us, but beyond benefits through refinement, a new shape of wheel, disregarding generations of prior experience, Is rarely an improvement.

However, that aside, Icons of cruiser size and larger, are improved now, drones, are heading in a good direction, if one were able to simplify some of the complex groups, ie asteroids, and containers, re evaluate the icons for non combat items, and most importantly, make sub cruiser sized icons visible (far far too small) then we could have a winner.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Joia Crenca
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#263 - 2015-06-30 02:23:55 UTC
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why do we have 8 icons for asteroids when 1 was previously sufficient?


You have 1 that indicates the site itself and then 1 for each type of variant
Base - Veldspar
+5% - Concentrated Veldspar
+10% - Dense Veldpsar

This is the same with Ice belts and their asteroids.

Is it not useful to know which is the better one? Especially for people that do not know all the variants off the top of their head? They now just need to know that bigger icon with asteroids is the better denser one?


Frankly, no, it is not 'better'....it just adds waay more clutter than is needed. Why does the Survey Scanner exist? Because if someone wants to know (other than just by looking at the physical size in space) which rock has more in it, they can, otherwise, if they simply don't care...they don't fit the module.

As to the usefulness of cluttering the overview with many superfluous icons to 'inform' them as to which rocks are 'better'...do you have plans to do this same thing with all ship brackets, so that way people don't have to remember which ships are kitting ships and which are brawlers off the top of their head? (please don't do this btw, just using it as an example as to why too much info everywhere isn't always the best thing)

Pretty quickly new miners learn what they need to mine, just like every other profession in Eve. There is no need to add pointless clutter. (which they also have to memorize before they get the benefits of it too) Just like we didn't need 27 separate drone icons...a single icon for asteroids is sufficient...



Hmm... actually I can't say that it's that bad. I have to create a separate overview for mining anyway, so the different sized icons for that aren't as much of an issue as not being able to quickly see the difference between npc, player, etc. If you tried to have the icons or even info for asteroids on the same overview as your combat overview, you'd have so many things dropping out of the bottom anyway that you'd quickly be frustrated.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#264 - 2015-06-30 05:53:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Claymore wrote:
Bracket and Overview icon changes are up on SISI.

Reduced number of drone icons.
Blue and filled friendly NPC.
Thicker line strokes so 90% should be a little better.

Can we revert ships back to the square boxes? It was really easy to tell the difference between frigates, cruisers, battleships, etc. Not liking the new triangle shapes. At all.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Steijn
Quay Industries
#265 - 2015-06-30 08:55:28 UTC
i actually re-plexed my account so i could at least see what the upcoming changes to the changes were going to be like, i wish i hadnt bothered.

Sorry CCP, but you really have dropped the ball with this one.
CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#266 - 2015-06-30 10:08:06 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Didn't read all posts, just my feedback ...

What I like, the blue color of "friendly" NPCs ... what I don't like is the blurred border and solid fill. What was the reason for that? For me the frame with light fill was more crisp (especially D and BC), and with red/blue they can't be confused with players anymore. For the drones ... I think it is a step back with unification, helpful would be a clear separation of combat/ewar (only ECs are used here anyway) and size.

In general I have found the solution for me by coloring all players, not having another color, with orange background. So I can use the icon diversity as secondary information, which works quite well.


Currently we have slimmed down the drone groups to
Combat Drones (S, M , L drones)
Sentry Drones
Fighter / Fighter Bombers
EW Drones

We do not plan on introducing sizes to combat drones and EW drones.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#267 - 2015-06-30 10:18:58 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
Bracket and Overview icon changes are up on SISI.

Reduced number of drone icons.
Blue and filled friendly NPC.
Thicker line strokes so 90% should be a little better.


Soo,

the mess with battleship, cruiser, dread and titan icons. Is there any chance that we can fix that?
cruiser and dread look to much alike, leaving battleships being the odd, slowpoke cousin in the middle.
There are enough nice ideas here to get it right. CCP employs consistency when renaming stuff and balancing all the time. Please don't fall short of that when redesigning your interface.


It is not something we had planned to look at just now.

If this is a real pain point then we could look at making tweaks for the release after Aegis.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Zappity
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#268 - 2015-06-30 10:19:03 UTC
Steijn wrote:
i actually re-plexed my account so i could at least see what the upcoming changes to the changes were going to be like, i wish i hadnt bothered.

Sorry CCP, but you really have dropped the ball with this one.

I think the changes are great - I can finally tell the difference between a frigate and destroyer for a start. I do like that they are iterating and fixing it up so we can better see the distinction between NPCs and players. And I'm really glad that they are fixing it up for colour blind people which I didn't even consider in the earlier versions.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#269 - 2015-06-30 10:25:43 UTC
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why do we have 8 icons for asteroids when 1 was previously sufficient?


You have 1 that indicates the site itself and then 1 for each type of variant
Base - Veldspar
+5% - Concentrated Veldspar
+10% - Dense Veldpsar

This is the same with Ice belts and their asteroids.

Is it not useful to know which is the better one? Especially for people that do not know all the variants off the top of their head? They now just need to know that bigger icon with asteroids is the better denser one?


Frankly, no, it is not 'better'....it just adds waay more clutter than is needed. Why does the Survey Scanner exist? Because if someone wants to know (other than just by looking at the physical size in space) which rock has more in it, they can, otherwise, if they simply don't care...they don't fit the module.

As to the usefulness of cluttering the overview with many superfluous icons to 'inform' them as to which rocks are 'better'...do you have plans to do this same thing with all ship brackets, so that way people don't have to remember which ships are kitting ships and which are brawlers off the top of their head? (please don't do this btw, just using it as an example as to why too much info everywhere isn't always the best thing)

Pretty quickly new miners learn what they need to mine, just like every other profession in Eve. There is no need to add pointless clutter. (which they also have to memorize before they get the benefits of it too) Just like we didn't need 27 separate drone icons...a single icon for asteroids is sufficient...


Maybe they do not know about the Survey Scanner yet.

They might not do it as a profession but something they like to do every now and again and therefore never really learn what to mine, they just mine because it is fun but know that bigger in this case is better so they go for that.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#270 - 2015-06-30 10:31:38 UTC
Steijn wrote:
i actually re-plexed my account so i could at least see what the upcoming changes to the changes were going to be like, i wish i hadnt bothered.

Sorry CCP, but you really have dropped the ball with this one.


Can you please provide some feedback as to why you specifically do not like the new changes?

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#271 - 2015-06-30 10:46:37 UTC
I'm not too keen on logistics and non-combat drones getting the same bracket as scout drones but I do really like the consistent cross profile for all drone types. The ewar drone bracket is a bit tiny, I think you need to scale it up to reduce eyestrain.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#272 - 2015-06-30 11:33:10 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
Bracket and Overview icon changes are up on SISI.

Reduced number of drone icons.
Blue and filled friendly NPC.
Thicker line strokes so 90% should be a little better.


Soo,

the mess with battleship, cruiser, dread and titan icons. Is there any chance that we can fix that?
cruiser and dread look to much alike, leaving battleships being the odd, slowpoke cousin in the middle.
There are enough nice ideas here to get it right. CCP employs consistency when renaming stuff and balancing all the time. Please don't fall short of that when redesigning your interface.


It is not something we had planned to look at just now.

If this is a real pain point then we could look at making tweaks for the release after Aegis.


Thank you for addressing my comment. If I seem fixated on this issue of consistency of icon progression, it's because every time I see these icons in the overview or in space, I get sad because it is an wasted opportunity. I don't know whether I am alone in this or the people who cared before just gave in to resignation, but if you are interested in what people said to this specific issue (namely "consistency of icon progression") just look at the part of this very thread before he carnyx release. It was mentioned as a pain point rather vocally at that time, with lots of constructive feedback.

Btw, drones are better now. Thanks :)
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#273 - 2015-06-30 12:09:51 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Why do we have 8 icons for asteroids when 1 was previously sufficient?


You have 1 that indicates the site itself and then 1 for each type of variant
Base - Veldspar
+5% - Concentrated Veldspar
+10% - Dense Veldpsar

This is the same with Ice belts and their asteroids.

Is it not useful to know which is the better one? Especially for people that do not know all the variants off the top of their head? They now just need to know that bigger icon with asteroids is the better denser one?


Useful - yes, back when I mined, that would've been useful.

But choosing a bigger asteroid for a more dense variant is counter-intuitive. The more dense varieties are almost always smaller roids with less overall quantity than the less dense. Bigger tends to indicate more. And the term density actually means the same amount of stuff can fit into a smaller package.

Bigger means better - sure, but in this scenario I think its backwards. Bigger should indicate more, and better could've had a little + superscript or something.

Heck, even your labeling on the icons indicates small, medium and large asteroids... not their density.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
#274 - 2015-06-30 12:58:01 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Can you please provide some feedback as to why you specifically do not like the new changes?

Maybe this is what frustrates us players the most, there was over 12 pages of feedback (of the very constructive side) from the 3-4 weeks this mess was on SiSi, then over 90 pages of feedback from after it hit TQ, not to mention the feedback you got earlier this spring from the first ISIS version (icon for literally every single different thing ever)...

Yet you still seem to not understand what it is exactly that isn't good about this "minor icon swap." Go back and re-read those three relevant threads, and you will know 100% what we don't like.

Yes, this current turd is more polished than the previous, but it is still a turd, and you are still trying to tell us its not, simply because you are trying to polish it.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#275 - 2015-06-30 12:59:27 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Didn't read all posts, just my feedback ...

What I like, the blue color of "friendly" NPCs ... what I don't like is the blurred border and solid fill. What was the reason for that? For me the frame with light fill was more crisp (especially D and BC), and with red/blue they can't be confused with players anymore. For the drones ... I think it is a step back with unification, helpful would be a clear separation of combat/ewar (only ECs are used here anyway) and size.

In general I have found the solution for me by coloring all players, not having another color, with orange background. So I can use the icon diversity as secondary information, which works quite well.


Currently we have slimmed down the drone groups to
Combat Drones (S, M , L drones)
Sentry Drones
Fighter / Fighter Bombers
EW Drones

We do not plan on introducing sizes to combat drones and EW drones.


That is a major help. Do we still have multiple icons for all the containers?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#276 - 2015-06-30 13:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Claymore
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:
CCP Claymore wrote:
Can you please provide some feedback as to why you specifically do not like the new changes?

Maybe this is what frustrates us players the most, there was over 12 pages of feedback (of the very constructive side) from the 3-4 weeks this mess was on SiSi, then over 90 pages of feedback from after it hit TQ, not to mention the feedback you got earlier this spring from the first ISIS version (icon for literally every single different thing ever)...

Yet you still seem to not understand what it is exactly that isn't good about this "minor icon swap." Go back and re-read those three relevant threads, and you will know 100% what we don't like.

Yes, this current turd is more polished than the previous, but it is still a turd, and you are still trying to tell us its not, simply because you are trying to polish it.


I am asking for this players specific feedback on the changes we have made, recently in the past week or so.

The 12 pages of feedback here and the 90 from TQ have nothing to do with these changes, which I believe is what the player was talking about.

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Wilhelm Knicklicht
Nasty-Boyz
Templis CALSF
#277 - 2015-06-30 13:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Wilhelm Knicklicht
not sure if this pertains to TQ or SISI but - arrgh!

friendly NPC icons (that nobody cares about) get colored to stand out...

while player ships are white to blend in better with gates, stations, etc?

it should be the other way around!

since blue usually is considered to represent "friendly", a neutral color like orange or turquoise could work.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#278 - 2015-06-30 13:55:02 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
That is a major help. Do we still have multiple icons for all the containers?
Most likely, yes. These are the brackets - and their names as class - that are currently found on Sisi (and turned them into CSS sprites). Select Small Bracket size to hide the Isis icons.

NPEISDRIP

Lim Hiaret
Hiaret Family
#279 - 2015-06-30 15:04:39 UTC
Have to say, I got used to the new icon set by now. Some icons are rather silly though. The freighter looks like a small soldier head with a helmet on. And the stick men? I would prefer something more serious. All in all it seems we are back to space invaders and asteroids now. But thats fine by me.

A bit more of a futuristic or technological look would be nice. Maybe some lines a bit wider. And maybe you should use a vector format for the icons which could be rendered when the client starts or when the scale factor is changed.

CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#280 - 2015-06-30 15:33:25 UTC
Lim Hiaret wrote:
Have to say, I got used to the new icon set by now. Some icons are rather silly though. The freighter looks like a small soldier head with a helmet on. And the stick men? I would prefer something more serious. All in all it seems we are back to space invaders and asteroids now. But thats fine by me.

A bit more of a futuristic or technological look would be nice. Maybe some lines a bit wider. And maybe you should use a vector format for the icons which could be rendered when the client starts or when the scale factor is changed.



Oh in a perfect world.

Sadly the current system does not properly support vector graphics. It would be amazing if it did, and it is something we are looking into. At the moment though it is not something we can use. One day!!!!

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters