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Column on overview to demystify % chance hit or dmg
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Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2015-06-29 12:59:25 UTC
As there's a big push for making EVE newbie friendly, I think that an overview column or variant solution that told the player the % chance to hit would be a good idea.

Many of the mechanics under the hood of PVP are complicated. I believe that the % chance hit formula is beyond the ability of an average player to understand. I also believe that angular velocity, distance and transversal speed, comparison of signature radius and so on is unnecessarily cumbersome for your day to day player trying to pick up the game.

I would propose a % hit value to be added to the overview (or elsewhere) that simply did that math for the player so that they can see at any given time if they can connect their shots. This type of information provides natural feedback for the new player to then naturally adjust their piloting.

Also such a feedback would avoid me having to give the whole, 'Imagine pointing at someone 100 yards away from you...' speech over and over, or explaining E-war or missiles entirely different calculations for success.

Obviously there's potential speed bumps to implementing something like this, but for a game that is based around the shooting of bad guys, its surprising how hard it is to answer the question, "what's my chance to hit?"
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#2 - 2015-06-29 13:08:44 UTC
Let's just have log messages telling the pilot the exact optimal orbit or that they should keep at range or click in space (a little flashing arrow could show them where).

Seriously, the concept that the closer/faster you orbit, the less chance you have to hit is not that hard, you get a feel for it without having to be able to rainman the calculation in your head or have your hand held in the overview.

Also I have seen this exact same thread title/idea before, was it you ?
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-06-29 13:09:13 UTC
that sounds like a coding nightmare

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#4 - 2015-06-29 13:43:25 UTC
Coding nightmare.
Reduces all of the things about knowing your ship and weapons. i.e. skills
WAY more free intel than the one thing needed to be able to derive approximately what it is (the signature radius)
-1.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Black Pedro
Mine.
#5 - 2015-06-29 13:45:12 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
that sounds like a coding nightmare

Indeed. But perhaps if the calculation was just applied to ships that are targeted it wouldn't be so bad. I mean the calculation is made everytime a weapon fires, and all the information should already be available to the client so could be done locally.

Something like a colour coding of the brackets or targetting icon (green/yellow/red, or a continuous scale) or some other indicator for each target providing information to the pilot about their chance of hitting with turrets (and something analogous for missiles). I've seen this idea proposed before though so perhaps it is just too difficult to code.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#6 - 2015-06-29 13:45:25 UTC
Personally I think I would rather people learned what there ships were and were not capable of rather than expecting the client to spoon feed them the data. Its more satisfying in the long run and produces better pilots.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-06-29 13:51:56 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
that sounds like a coding nightmare

Indeed. But perhaps if the calculation was just applied to ships that are targeted it wouldn't be so bad. I mean the calculation is made everytime a weapon fires, and all the information should already be available to the client so could be done locally.

Something like a colour coding of the brackets or targetting icon (green/yellow/red, or a continuous scale) or some other indicator for each target providing information to the pilot about their chance of hitting with turrets (and something analogous for missiles). I've seen this idea proposed before though so perhaps it is just too difficult to code.


well thinking about the amount of weapons, ammo, ships, bonuses, distances between the 2 ships, sig etc etc and the server having to calculate this value everytime a ship moves sounds like a ballache. im no game coder so cant really comment, it just sounds madness

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-06-29 13:59:15 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
that sounds like a coding nightmare

Indeed. But perhaps if the calculation was just applied to ships that are targeted it wouldn't be so bad. I mean the calculation is made everytime a weapon fires, and all the information should already be available to the client so could be done locally.


well thinking about the amount of weapons, ammo, ships, bonuses, distances between the 2 ships, sig etc etc and the server having to calculate this value everytime a ship moves sounds like a ballache. im no game coder so cant really comment, it just sounds madness



You've quoted someone who points out that the calculation could be done client side using information from the server, and then made the opposite point :o)
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-06-29 14:01:36 UTC
thats true i misread that, sorry my bad

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Black Pedro
Mine.
#10 - 2015-06-29 14:03:32 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
well thinking about the amount of weapons, ammo, ships, bonuses, distances between the 2 ships, sig etc etc and the server having to calculate this value everytime a ship moves sounds like a ballache. im no game coder so cant really comment, it just sounds madness
I am not qualified to say, but the client knows all this information (except for perhaps signature radius?) and could do it without having query the server. The number doesn't even have to be perfect, even just a relative indication of the chance to hit could help newer pilots better assess the tactical situation.

But I could be totally wrong about its feasibility. In any case, if technically possible, the idea has merit.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-06-29 14:27:48 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Let's just have log messages telling the pilot the exact optimal orbit or that they should keep at range or click in space (a little flashing arrow could show them where).

Seriously, the concept that the closer/faster you orbit, the less chance you have to hit is not that hard, you get a feel for it without having to be able to rainman the calculation in your head or have your hand held in the overview.

Also I have seen this exact same thread title/idea before, was it you ?


Adding information that can potentially help a less veteran pilot with a non-intuitive subject will not make you worse. In fact the actual combat utility is likely to be very minimal to someone with experience and training.

However I believe it would be helpful for new pilots who are learning to be able to understand that they have a 0% chance to hit someone. I tend to hang out in circles with more new players than old, but in those circles comprehension of these game mechanics is very low. Frequently folks will fly the wrong ship, the wrong way, and become frustrated. Blaming the player is fine, but you won't be able to sustain the game without bringing in the new blood.

The full concept that has to be explained is summed up in an excellent video on eve-altruist: http://www.evealtruist.com/2011/12/video-tracking-and-spiralling.html that runs about 12 minutes.

After you learn that, you can move onto how missiles calculate hits. Then you can look at ewar and figure out how that works. Eve is not intuitive.



Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#12 - 2015-06-29 14:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
It would not be a coding nightmare. The coding would be about as easy as it gets. All the necessary data is already available on the overview except sigRad. Since the other numbers are there, I'm sure sigRad could be added easily, and thus chance to hit could be added just as easily after running one simple mathematical calculation.

I imagine that current the calculations are only done for objects upon which you are running offensive modules, and only when those cycle. No need to run calcs unnecessarily.

This proposal would require the chance to hit calculations be performed for every object on the overview every time it updates. Client lag could become a problem. But, then again, computers are very good at running repetitive tasks like that. And considering all the other numbers available on your overview, it may not so much as burp (more than it already does).

If CCP were to implement this, I'd like to see a matching graphical indicator as well. But only upon selecting a target by clicking on it. Brackets are known to slow down frame rates significantly, and I don't think you'd want to have your client trying to render chance to hit calcs and graphics if you have all brackets on in crowded space, or happen to accidentally click on your drones overview in the middle of a 256-person Ishtar or Wrecking Ball fleet.

One easy to implement change would be to have the tracking column be in the same units as tracking is listed in weapon information. I think the right one is angular velocity. Its the one measured in rad/sec. This ofc would only help turrets. Add sigRad. That would help everyone.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#13 - 2015-06-29 16:01:07 UTC
There is one thing that disturb me in that thread...

If a newbie cannot understand that his chances to hit are related to speed and orbite distance, how could he possibly understand that the chance to hit indicator is derived from those two values? And if he cannot, how will he understand that that indicator is not randomly changing? And how will he deduce what he need to change in order to increase his hit chances?

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#14 - 2015-06-29 16:08:37 UTC
Another attempt to try and have sig radius show on the overview, I wonder which alliance these alts belong to to try and make this somehow happen. Hint, it has nothing to do with "newbies" and everything to do with "lol, now I know how a lot of extra info due to his sig".
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#15 - 2015-06-29 17:24:25 UTC
Throwaway Sam Atild wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Let's just have log messages telling the pilot the exact optimal orbit or that they should keep at range or click in space (a little flashing arrow could show them where).

Seriously, the concept that the closer/faster you orbit, the less chance you have to hit is not that hard, you get a feel for it without having to be able to rainman the calculation in your head or have your hand held in the overview.

Also I have seen this exact same thread title/idea before, was it you ?


Adding information that can potentially help a less veteran pilot with a non-intuitive subject will not make you worse. In fact the actual combat utility is likely to be very minimal to someone with experience and training.

However I believe it would be helpful for new pilots who are learning to be able to understand that they have a 0% chance to hit someone. I tend to hang out in circles with more new players than old, but in those circles comprehension of these game mechanics is very low. Frequently folks will fly the wrong ship, the wrong way, and become frustrated. Blaming the player is fine, but you won't be able to sustain the game without bringing in the new blood.

The full concept that has to be explained is summed up in an excellent video on eve-altruist: http://www.evealtruist.com/2011/12/video-tracking-and-spiralling.html that runs about 12 minutes.

After you learn that, you can move onto how missiles calculate hits. Then you can look at ewar and figure out how that works. Eve is not intuitive.



Could not disagree more, I grasped tracking/chance to hit almost entirely intuitively, I've never sat down and worked it out mathematically, never used one of those graphs in EFT. After having it explained to me in the most basic terms, i learned what each fit I flew could do by flying, trying different things *intuitively*... like noticing my hits were better when I didn't MWD @ 500m or that I got hit less when I did the same. The balance between these things is something you cannot stick in a column on the overview.

I don't actually think it would help at all as players would focus on the silly chance to hit column and forget about the chance to get hit which is equally as important... are you going to put a column in the overview for that too ?
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#16 - 2015-06-29 17:48:42 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Another attempt to try and have sig radius show on the overview, I wonder which alliance these alts belong to to try and make this somehow happen. Hint, it has nothing to do with "newbies" and everything to do with "lol, now I know how a lot of extra info due to his sig".

Please, do tell what besides the sig radius is confirmed by sig on overview?

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-06-29 18:10:15 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:


Could not disagree more, I grasped tracking/chance to hit almost entirely intuitively, I've never sat down and worked it out mathematically, never used one of those graphs in EFT. After having it explained to me in the most basic terms, i learned what each fit I flew could do by flying, trying different things *intuitively*... like noticing my hits were better when I didn't MWD @ 500m or that I got hit less when I did the same. The balance between these things is something you cannot stick in a column on the overview.

I don't actually think it would help at all as players would focus on the silly chance to hit column and forget about the chance to get hit which is equally as important... are you going to put a column in the overview for that too ?


Is it a reasonable argument that the existing information, Angular in r/s, Transversal in m/s and distance is non-intuitive?

I'm not sure why someone would be wrong focusing on something telling them what their chance to hit was. The concept of a chance to hit is very common across many games, and it usually is not buried.

I'll point out that you mention above that someone took the time to explain to you in basic terms how it all works. Many folks shy away from the social aspects of gaming until it's too late. Eve certainly isn't very good single-player, but the thought would be to keep people interested until they can find a group.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-06-30 04:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Portmanteau wrote:
Let's just have log messages telling the pilot the exact optimal orbit or that they should keep at range or click in space (a little flashing arrow could show them where).

Typical slippery slope argument. The OP is a decent idea, your criticism is not needed.



Lan Wang wrote:
that sounds like a coding nightmare

Yes, since the game already must calculate this info for you, it's a real burden to spit it out onto the overview so you can see it.

And before you ask, no, client-side calculations do not increase server load.



Samillian wrote:
Personally I think I would rather people learned what there ships were and were not capable of rather than expecting the client to spoon feed them the data. Its more satisfying in the long run and produces better pilots.

It's a good point, and I'm not sure where I stand on the issue. I think, however, that newbies will quickly find that it does not really spoonfeed them much at all, as they will simply discover that they currently lack a decent chance to hit and they'll have to study turret stats anyway to find out why. Once they learn to hit sometimes, the overview information might actually accelerate their learning process for it will give them quick answers to their burning questions and help to prevent the development of turret mechanic superstitions.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#19 - 2015-06-30 06:38:43 UTC
Good idea. The overview should display a chance to hit percentage.

To add to that idea, the tutorial could also explain how to make that number go higher. That would require the tutorial to actually explain something useful, however, which I am fairly sure is not allowed.

I'm thinking along these lines:

1. Learn how to lock a target.
2. Learn how to fire your turret at the target.
3. Demonstrate location of chance to hit percentage on overview.
4. Teach new players several ways to increase chance to hit for turrets.
....

Next step in tutorial. Teach new players how to increase damage application for missiles.


After that. Remind new players that maneuvering their ship in ways that maximizes chance to hit needs to be balanced against maneuvering their ship to keep it alive.

All this sounds like a terrible idea, as it would make it possible to actually learn to play Eve by doing the tutorial. We simply cannot have that.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#20 - 2015-06-30 07:25:45 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Another attempt to try and have sig radius show on the overview, I wonder which alliance these alts belong to to try and make this somehow happen. Hint, it has nothing to do with "newbies" and everything to do with "lol, now I know how a lot of extra info due to his sig".

Please, do tell what besides the sig radius is confirmed by sig on overview?


Shield or armour tanked, extenders or active tanked, gang links, implants. That's all VERY useful/important info. This is not a difficult answer and, frankly, asking the question means one lacks the understanding. It also helps clown fleets do "sort by best damage application" especially so when painters are used, and this sort of F1 cattle fleet usefulness is exactly what we don't need.
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