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Casual highsec solo industry

Author
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
#21 - 2015-06-06 18:07:06 UTC
z'kroh wrote:
Sure you can, but why alone? This game is pure agony for solo gaming. Seriously. Very, very seriously.


Aye, I have heard the "Dude, you're playing solo in a multiplayer game??" time and again. Very seriously, I knew what I was getting into before I even launched the game for the first time in 2006. I spent about a week reading up on the game before deciding to try it out. I think it is a testament to EVE's versatility that I have been successfully playing the game solo for 9 years so far.

Then again, I had a lot of fun playing with others over the years as well - it is just not my main playstyle.

And to come back on topic:

Do Little wrote:
Casual means different things to different people. I spend about an hour a day adjusting prices, submitting jobs and hauling stuff to market. Since I only make modules I can haul in a Blockade Runner which speeds things up a lot. I enjoy the gameplay - some people prefer to do other things.


Casual for me is not having to spend hours researching every detail. That's why I have developed a small custom-made industry tool that knows all my blueprints, and that I can use to give me a list of required materials and costs for a batch of different items - with or without invention. Then I just thave to buy all I need (agreed, blockade runners ftw), and start the jobs.

The problem lately was merely that the market prices were lower than I could build my items. That is why I wanted to know if it is still possible to compete at all - now that I do, I realize I will have to do a little research to find other items to build that are profitable. The upside is that I will have to add new items to my blueprints collection, and thus become more flexible.

Estephania wrote:
I have found that many items are sold below or at the price of their manufacturing cost. Which means many industrialists are virtually working for free, or selling at loss. I doubt you can make any profit with small scale industrial operation, maybe on select items after spending hours researching the market. But then you can hardly call it casual.


I'm not so sure they are all working for free - if you have the infrastructure to build either in lowsec at a POS or in null and bring your items to market, you have quite an advantage. Granted, on smaller items like modules the difference should not be that substantial, but at the margins for most T2 items it can play a role.

Then again, it is quite possible many industrialists out there just do not take all costs into account. If you do not have to buy all materials you tend to forget they come with a cost nontheless.

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-06-06 18:47:42 UTC
For T1 items MANY think that the minerals they mine are free, so any isk they get from selling the finished product is manufacture profit. Then you also have people that mine/buy minerals far away from any tradehub and forget that they dont have to kmanufacture before bringing it to a tradehub and sell for a nice profit.

Some items that use alot of minerals may also be easier to build in a remote mining system, import the minerals you cant get localy and haul the finished product. PLaying 0.01 isk game in a tradehub to sell ore/mineral vs selling finished product for same mineral price
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-06-07 02:42:05 UTC
z'kroh wrote:
Sure you can, but why alone? This game is pure agony for solo gaming. Seriously. Very, very seriously.


you are not playing solo if you are buying from and selling to other players.

about the whole trading vs industry thing:

it doesn't matter where your profit actually comes from, as long as you KNOW where it comes from.

it's not exactly hard to find people willing to sell ore and other ressources at 10-20% below jita. but that's usually at the arse of the universe.

jita ressources to jita end product should be your benchmark. that's actual industry profit.

everything else (cheaper ressources, markup on end product) is a trading and/or hauling profit.

if a major part of your profit comes from things that are not industry, you should seriously consider switching over to that activity.
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
#24 - 2015-06-07 10:24:47 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
z'kroh wrote:
Sure you can, but why alone? This game is pure agony for solo gaming. Seriously. Very, very seriously.


you are not playing solo if you are buying from and selling to other players.


Hah, I had not thought about it that way. Even talking about "Market PvP" tends to lose its meaning as there is no direct communication, but it's true regardless.

Gilbaron wrote:
about the whole trading vs industry thing:

it doesn't matter where your profit actually comes from, as long as you KNOW where it comes from.


Continuing this line of thought, why should we even distinguish between industry and trading profits? Unless you control the whole material chain, there will always be some part of trading involved in industry when you buy materials. Getting materials cheaper than the reference market hub price is a trading profit, but as you said, it does not matter where it comes from if you know from where.

The only reason I would see is to ensure that you do not lose profits by transforming your materials in industry.

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#25 - 2015-06-07 13:57:17 UTC
When I started in industry, I wanted to be vertically integrated - involved in every aspect of the production process. It worked for a while but the time investment required to harvest my own materials grew at the same rate as my business - it wasn't sustainable. I am still self sufficient for P2 and make my advanced components but the other stuff is purchased.

I use the in game industry tool to check profitability. My costs are below "average" so I'll be paying a bit less than the cost shown by the tool and I use the selling price it provides as my floor price. Other than that, I don't pay much attention to the numbers - I'm playing a game, not running a business. At the end of the month, I usually have enough surplus cash to PLEX multiple character training for a couple of accounts and that tells me I'm doing something right!

My industrial operation is concentrated in my own 1 player corporation but my main is in a different player corp and I have a couple of characters in NPC corps so I can continue operations uninterrupted during a war. Solo and social are not mutually exclusive.
AeonOfTime
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
#26 - 2015-06-07 17:22:02 UTC
Do Little wrote:
When I started in industry, I wanted to be vertically integrated - involved in every aspect of the production process. It worked for a while but the time investment required to harvest my own materials grew at the same rate as my business - it wasn't sustainable. I am still self sufficient for P2 and make my advanced components but the other stuff is purchased.

I use the in game industry tool to check profitability. My costs are below "average" so I'll be paying a bit less than the cost shown by the tool and I use the selling price it provides as my floor price. Other than that, I don't pay much attention to the numbers - I'm playing a game, not running a business. At the end of the month, I usually have enough surplus cash to PLEX multiple character training for a couple of accounts and that tells me I'm doing something right!

My industrial operation is concentrated in my own 1 player corporation but my main is in a different player corp and I have a couple of characters in NPC corps so I can continue operations uninterrupted during a war. Solo and social are not mutually exclusive.


Sounds like you are way ahead of me then. I built a tool to keep track of everything because otherwise I forget what I did :) I like the idea of just using the ingame tool though, as an experiment I will try to do the same.

Might I ask if you sell your stuff close to a hub, or out of the beaten paths?

Lone wolf and nomad extraordinaire. eve.aeonoftime.com

Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-06-07 21:34:39 UTC
AeonOfTime wrote:


Gilbaron wrote:
about the whole trading vs industry thing:

it doesn't matter where your profit actually comes from, as long as you KNOW where it comes from.


Continuing this line of thought, why should we even distinguish between industry and trading profits? Unless you control the whole material chain, there will always be some part of trading involved in industry when you buy materials. Getting materials cheaper than the reference market hub price is a trading profit, but as you said, it does not matter where it comes from if you know from where.

The only reason I would see is to ensure that you do not lose profits by transforming your materials in industry.


You need to distinguish between market and industry profit to make sure the industry part is earning isk instead of loosing part of the trading profit. This is the number 1 reason many items are sold at lower prices than you can make it. Instead of earning 2b/month from trading you "earn" 1b from manufacturing and at the same time screw others trying to get into manufacturing
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-06-08 12:38:32 UTC
AeonOfTime wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
z'kroh wrote:
Sure you can, but why alone? This game is pure agony for solo gaming. Seriously. Very, very seriously.


you are not playing solo if you are buying from and selling to other players.


Hah, I had not thought about it that way. Even talking about "Market PvP" tends to lose its meaning as there is no direct communication, but it's true regardless.

Gilbaron wrote:
about the whole trading vs industry thing:

it doesn't matter where your profit actually comes from, as long as you KNOW where it comes from.


Continuing this line of thought, why should we even distinguish between industry and trading profits? Unless you control the whole material chain, there will always be some part of trading involved in industry when you buy materials. Getting materials cheaper than the reference market hub price is a trading profit, but as you said, it does not matter where it comes from if you know from where.

The only reason I would see is to ensure that you do not lose profits by transforming your materials in industry.



why waste time on industry if it's not making you any money ?

there are very few edge cases, where industry is buying you time instead of money, but that's different.

an example would be someone buying minerals in some remote highsec area that is only building freighters. whenever a freighter is ready, the hull is filled with excess stuff and autopiloted to jita. the return trip is made in a shuttle.

simply making freighters is not exactly a brilliant idea. but using the hulls to save time can be a good idea. transporting the minerals to jita might take several roundtrips, doing the returntrip in a shuttle can provide more time for the cool things in eve.
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#29 - 2015-06-08 16:02:10 UTC
I've tried selling in Amarr, Dodixie and Hek. I buy stuff in Jita but you can usually get better margins in any of the other regional hubs. I also learned the hard way that a cloaked Blockade Runner can be blown up approaching the Jita dock - the smaller hubs seem to be a lot safer! I dropped Amarr some time ago because it was farthest from my base and I didn't want to invest the time and effort to manage 3 markets. Right now Hek is my best market but that too is cyclical - if you asked me a few months ago I would have said Dodixie.

I'm still on the steep edge of the learning curve and realize that "location" is one of the few ways a merchant can add value in a pure commodity market like Eve. Right now I have several projects on the go to diversify my gameplay but that is definitely something I am interested in investigating once I have some time.
Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2015-06-08 19:50:18 UTC
Create an insta-dock bookmark well within the docking ring. While in warp, set destination to the station and enable autopilot. You will dock instantly. You will want insta-undock bms too.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Nicola Romanoff
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#31 - 2015-06-12 14:41:15 UTC
I make a profit selling T2 and some T1 stuff, I sell in Jita, I don’t really ponce about sourcing from different places, I get together a bulk amount of what I want, order it, public courier to where I build, build it, public courier it back. The amounts are not fantastic, I am not maximising isk per hour but I am making some isk.

Do I want more. Yes, could I plex my account, probably not. But I am looking at industry to pay for pvp loses, which it does because I don’t fly expensive stuff. Now if I wanted to fly expensive stuff I would maybe need to be more focused on the details, but as long as I research enough to know if I buy this at A and ship it to B and then build it and ship it back to A it give me a profit, then I am happy.
Nicola Romanoff
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#32 - 2015-06-12 14:44:09 UTC
Jan Minayin wrote:
T2 industry is totally fine. My solo (3 character) hisec industry setup was making a healthy profit from T2 crusiers and modules, even just buying and selling in Jita.

As long as you have a wide portfolio and can adapt quickly to market trends, and build in a POS with a half decent system index, you should be able to turn a profit.


Does the POS matter if you are solo, isnt the 10% station tax offset by the fuel costs of the POS?
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#33 - 2015-06-14 17:30:42 UTC
In my experience the big difference between POS and station is time. POS labs and arrays get a huge bonus for time efficiency. For making T2 modules this doesn't matter much - you're only saving an hour or two per run but it really makes a difference for research, copying and invention. Those tasks will take days longer in a station. You also must use a POS if you want to invent or manufacture T3 ships and subsystems.

I took my POS down during a war and decided not to put it back up. I've since skilled a couple more characters for invention and don't miss the POS. Station is actually easier to work in because you don't need to physically move stuff between labs & arrays to get things done.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
Just let it happen
#34 - 2015-06-15 04:14:26 UTC
I took up manufacturing for one purpose: To add value to what I mine. I make and sell stuff for, on average, 30% to 50% more than I could get just bulk selling the ore.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-06-24 13:20:11 UTC
There's no such thing as an item that is sold below cost unless in the very rare case of a liquidation attempt for one reason or another.

I think you're forgetting how to actually calculate cost. Just because tritanium sells for 5.12 isk for example (random number I pulled out of my ass don't take it literally) doesn't mean the cost of an item that inputs ten tritanium costs 51.2 isk each. Tritanium is in all actuality a FREE item if you can mine it yourself - or reprocess other items you loot into it.

If you think an item is being sold "below cost" you're probably either seeing liquidation (if it's just a momentary sell listing) or if it's consistent, they're probably getting the input elsewhere for cheaper than you are.
Vulpinus Perfidium
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-06-24 21:20:31 UTC
Legatus1982 wrote:
There's no such thing as an item that is sold below cost unless in the very rare case of a liquidation attempt for one reason or another.

I think you're forgetting how to actually calculate cost. Just because tritanium sells for 5.12 isk for example (random number I pulled out of my ass don't take it literally) doesn't mean the cost of an item that inputs ten tritanium costs 51.2 isk each. Tritanium is in all actuality a FREE item if you can mine it yourself - or reprocess other items you loot into it.

If you think an item is being sold "below cost" you're probably either seeing liquidation (if it's just a momentary sell listing) or if it's consistent, they're probably getting the input elsewhere for cheaper than you are.


Yes, yes.. this.

Now, kind Legatus, how much can I pay you to make me a few hundred frigates?
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-06-25 16:14:15 UTC
Vulpinus Perfidium wrote:
Legatus1982 wrote:
There's no such thing as an item that is sold below cost unless in the very rare case of a liquidation attempt for one reason or another.

I think you're forgetting how to actually calculate cost. Just because tritanium sells for 5.12 isk for example (random number I pulled out of my ass don't take it literally) doesn't mean the cost of an item that inputs ten tritanium costs 51.2 isk each. Tritanium is in all actuality a FREE item if you can mine it yourself - or reprocess other items you loot into it.

If you think an item is being sold "below cost" you're probably either seeing liquidation (if it's just a momentary sell listing) or if it's consistent, they're probably getting the input elsewhere for cheaper than you are.


Yes, yes.. this.

Now, kind Legatus, how much can I pay you to make me a few hundred frigates?


For the low price of ten billion isk you can be the proud owner of one combat ready atron :)
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-06-25 18:47:44 UTC
Legatus1982 wrote:
There's no such thing as an item that is sold below cost unless in the very rare case of a liquidation attempt for one reason or another.

I think you're forgetting how to actually calculate cost. Just because tritanium sells for 5.12 isk for example (random number I pulled out of my ass don't take it literally) doesn't mean the cost of an item that inputs ten tritanium costs 51.2 isk each. Tritanium is in all actuality a FREE item if you can mine it yourself - or reprocess other items you loot into it.

If you think an item is being sold "below cost" you're probably either seeing liquidation (if it's just a momentary sell listing) or if it's consistent, they're probably getting the input elsewhere for cheaper than you are.


The cost assosiated with minerals are either the price you pay to get it OR the price you can sell those minerals for.
If you can sell 10 units of tritanium for 51.2isk (numbers from quoted post) or manufacture an item that use 10 tritanium and sell for 51isk, that item is sold below cost! Its irrelevant that you can mine it without using a single isk, the mineral still have a value.

Kgu
#39 - 2015-06-25 22:46:18 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Legatus1982 wrote:
There's no such thing as an item that is sold below cost unless in the very rare case of a liquidation attempt for one reason or another.

I think you're forgetting how to actually calculate cost. Just because tritanium sells for 5.12 isk for example (random number I pulled out of my ass don't take it literally) doesn't mean the cost of an item that inputs ten tritanium costs 51.2 isk each. Tritanium is in all actuality a FREE item if you can mine it yourself - or reprocess other items you loot into it.

If you think an item is being sold "below cost" you're probably either seeing liquidation (if it's just a momentary sell listing) or if it's consistent, they're probably getting the input elsewhere for cheaper than you are.


The cost assosiated with minerals are either the price you pay to get it OR the price you can sell those minerals for.
If you can sell 10 units of tritanium for 51.2isk (numbers from quoted post) or manufacture an item that use 10 tritanium and sell for 51isk, that item is sold below cost! Its irrelevant that you can mine it without using a single isk, the mineral still have a value.



The trouble is that there's no way to "short," mineral prices other than building things with your own under par. It is possible that the MIMAF producer is simply witless and doesn't realize the forgone profit (in which case, they're effectively dumping materials on the market to a kind of buy order - the demand for their module or ship priced under the market-sourced-cost), but it's also the case that, even if he knows what he is doing, that he realizes an intangible "profit," from the act of producing and selling things from the ground up. At which point he is perfectly willing to operate "at a loss," and subsidize his business with trade or missions, etc. What these players are engaged in is a kind of subsidy to their customers, but one they enjoy giving.

Incidentally, you can usually tell around patch-time that a surplus of production alts have been put to use speculating because thereafter we see predictable spikes in production at costs far exeeded by par. That is, they spend a lot more than would usually be necessary to produce things they believe will appreciate due to patch changes and new demand. So the curiosity of producing things and selling them at a great distance from material market value is one of the few ways to access a speculative short or long position on the market itself or at least market prices of produced modules relative to mineral production.

tl;dr: Minerals they mine aren't "free," but the miner can act as though their productive activity and consequential value is zero or even negative and they would do this because they value the activity itself and are willing to compete to subsidize the players who buy their wares below the mineral value floor. Now, off to check the hubs for stuff to reprocess.
HJK CLONE1
Yulai Heavy Industries
#40 - 2015-07-04 14:40:28 UTC
http://nevillesmit.com/

You might find this guy's chronicle useful. For what its worth I've run into quite a few solo hi-sec folks being pretty successful at T2.
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