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Rat aggression swaps in pvp situations.

First post
Author
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#141 - 2015-06-24 02:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
My point is that if i point them they should be forced to 1v1 me, and it should not me being forced to 1v1 him and also tank the entire site (cause everything swaps). That isnt as big an issue with stuff like tanky cruisers or bs cause tanking the site isnt that hard usually but for ships whos primary defence isnt paper tank and/or ehp but getting under guns and signature and mobility its almost impossible.



Problem is there is no way to get this. We had it the one way where ratter just screwed if jumped. Which was abused by many players who ran ships/fits that lets be honest had no way in hell otherwise of killing that ratter any other way. The rat dps required to actually bring the ratter down. That pvp'er not breaking tank in any other way. Eve not a fair place I know but at some point...even this crap rates a wtf seriously?.

So they went the other route which can screw the solo hunter. But even this has outs. they may not like them (run a tanky t3 to hunt the tank t3) but they are options.

Only way I see for some meeting in the middle Is some funky code that goes along the lines of:

if ratter attacked by a 3rd party
then stop attacking them, don't attack the pvpe'er, and let them and 3rd party work it out.


Abuse here is if stuck and getting beat down hard I could run an alt to get me a get out of pve jail free card. Who needs e-war immunity, throw away alt (which one could have in 0.0 to scout the bs) give the same effect.

Then the code gets real funky as the if then else's pile up if ratter or even pvp'er shoots rats (I kill ratter in an officer spawn, and then go you know that officer bs is looking pretty tempting and since here anyway......) .

Is rat immunity timer based (for all parties)? Do we have counters? Like say okay you 2 players get 3 tries to accidentally shoot us before we get all sleeper AI mode on your ass?
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#142 - 2015-06-24 10:11:42 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
My point is that if i point them they should be forced to 1v1 me, and it should not me being forced to 1v1 him and also tank the entire site (cause everything swaps). That isnt as big an issue with stuff like tanky cruisers or bs cause tanking the site isnt that hard usually but for ships whos primary defence isnt paper tank and/or ehp but getting under guns and signature and mobility its almost impossible.



Your point is forgetting a few key points of combat.

First, you are the aggressor. You have the initiative to pick if you will attack or not. The choice of ship was yours, the choice of fittings, even the hunting grounds so you knew the damage profile the environment would be throwing your way.

Second, You know the behavior of the environment. Plan appropriately. You get to choose when you attack, so maybe don't do it with a whole bunch of stuff around, or use other means to keep your target from getting away. I know for a fact that the rats won't stay on you because of ewar, they just don't like it. Non-Consensual PvE is an element of every game, so obvious that it never really gets discussed.

Mark Hadden
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2015-06-24 11:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Switch Savage wrote:
I generally just disagree with the concept that you should get a free ride from the rats for no real reason. I am of the opinion that if you wish to enter the site and receive a kill mail you should have to deal with the same environmental concerns that the pver himself is facing

has already been discussed here to death. It all boils down to lot less pvp encounters, more security for farmers and entire pvp profession screwed, giant chunk of pvp style removed from the game.


Switch Savage wrote:
Your argument seems to boil down to the fact that if they are dumb enough to be pointed then you deserve the kill. I partially agree with this however i do find it engaging game play when forced to have intimate knowledge of the PvE site i wish stalk my prey in.

your knowledge of PvE site is completely useless, since regular ratter will gtfo as soon as he sees you in local chat or on close dscan (entry gate to the plex). Your argument might have some merit in W-Space where no local is, but it's certainly pointless in K-Space where all you can count on is the speed of your nano ship, your dscan skill, range of your point and finally carelessness of your victim to monitor local properly, THAT'S IT!

Switch Savage wrote:
Call me a masochist if you will but It adds variety to the hunt. Anyway that is my thoughts on the matter I'm sure i'll catch you on mumble sometime and perhaps we can debate a bit further.

no it doesnt add variety, it removes pvp and adds safety for farmers, totally unneeded, they did totally fine those days pre-Retribution. Solo duders already got heavily nerfed by CCP, when they added MJD and supertanky, solo basically unkillable Marauders, when the meta shifted from BS to Ishtars -> NPC change was the last nail in the coffin.
Mark Hadden
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2015-06-24 11:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Mike Voidstar wrote:
First, you are the aggressor.
You have the initiative to pick if you will attack or not. The choice of ship was yours, the choice of fittings, even the hunting grounds so you knew the damage profile the environment would be throwing your way.

doesnt matter, typical carebear view - "you dont have to engage me when I'm ratting, your choice if you wanna get rekt by my Gurista bros here". Its not how this game worked and evolved for a decade.


Mike Voidstar wrote:

Second, You know the behavior of the environment.

broken environment is exactly what we discuss here, dont like and want to get rid off.

CCP touched NPC AI to close some PvE loopholes, didnt listen to the playerbase as usually in the course, followed their standard procedure and broke more(PvP) than they fixed essentially - now its time to get it right!!
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#145 - 2015-06-24 12:05:57 UTC
Point is, it was broke. It was balanced from that broken state.

Now you don't like having to adapt and actually use tactics that put your own assets at risk.

having a hard time dredging up any kind of sympathy.
Mark Hadden
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2015-06-24 12:11:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Point is, it was broke. It was balanced from that broken state.

Now you don't like having to adapt and actually use tactics that put your own assets at risk.

having a hard time dredging up any kind of sympathy.


no it wasnt broken, ratters did fine, they undocked and farmed their stuff, they had some risk but it was manageable one, they knew it and they dealt with it absolutely fine. More safety for PvE wasnt needed nor justified, facts prove me right.

Also stop repeating your assets at risk nonsense, your theory has been proven wrong 2 pages back.
An average ratter in an insured raven wouldnt put more asset at risk than a hunter in an uninsurable T2 ship on the opposite.
Ratter in ishtar or T3 even less because he's fast. A ratter in a marauder is now unkillable solo (even leaving the rats out of the calculation), nor was a realistic kill pre-Retribution. So what f....... risk are you talking about??
If you pimp your boat its your decision, do it right and dont get ya caught!
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#147 - 2015-06-24 12:59:45 UTC
Nuh Uh! isn't really a counter argument. You are either a Robert Alt, or else just another entitiled gankbear too butthurt to adapt to a somewhat more level playing field.

As people continue to die every day to solo hunters it seems the profession isn't dead. Ratters are players, not content to be farmed by PvP players. As such the environment does not need to be twisted to make them easy kills for throw away ships. The point is to fight them, not just kill them.
Mark Hadden
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2015-06-24 13:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
players are all content for each other thats why we play a pvp oriented MMO, farmers have always been content for pvpers, pvpers have always been content for other pvpers. whats your argument actually? People get farmed all the time, why are PvErs special? Those are actually the worst ones, not contributing anything to the game, inflating the economy with easy isk while even demanding the environment to protect them as we all see at your instance, Mike Voidstar.

and yeah Robert is me too, the toon I used to post with in forums.
Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#149 - 2015-06-24 13:49:49 UTC
Standings with NPC should apply. Just farm your standings with the NPC in the area where you
help them fight their opressors and done, no more agression. This will happen when the NPC will
use plex and become a market share.

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#150 - 2015-06-24 15:08:59 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
players are all content for each other thats why we play a pvp oriented MMO, farmers have always been content for pvpers, pvpers have always been content for other pvpers. whats your argument actually? People get farmed all the time, why are PvErs special? Those are actually the worst ones, not contributing anything to the game, inflating the economy with easy isk while even demanding the environment to protect them as we all see at your instance, Mike Voidstar.

and yeah Robert is me too, the toon I used to post with in forums.



You continue to display vast levels of "I don't get it".

If you want to take the view of everyone is content, then suck it up and go be content for the people who can somehow force you into taking bait.

Carebears are the vital engine of the EVE economy. Just as we need destruction to drive the need for production, we need production to fill the needs of destruction. Your shortsighted bleating about carebears inflating the economy show an absolute lack of understanding.

We need the destruction of ships with high mineral worth. Not throw away ships, nor necessarily ships with big price tags, though short of rare mods and ships these factors tend to stay linked due to market forces. In short, the destruction of the very ships you are afraid to put on the field to be destroyed. The PvE pilots have always fielded these sorts of ship. They still lose them all the time, if not in the exact way you would wish.

The acquisition of new rare modules helps make the overall EvE economy healthier too. The more liquid wealth you draw into a few hands, the less there is in the economy at large. So your bear farming high value loot and making himself rich is doing more good than you are by stopping him.

There are many ISK faucets in EVE, but their balance point isn't being disrupted by solo gankbears in throw away ships. The health of the game is in ensuring that the most minerals/raw resources is destroyed per encounter, and in that encounter being enjoyable by as many players as possible so that the most people want to stay subscribed.

So just grief killing bears with no stake of your own in the fight, and no realistic chance of losing the fight is what was bad for the game. If it had been corrected sooner the game would be better off now.
Mark Hadden
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2015-06-24 15:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Mike Voidstar wrote:

Not throw away ships,

you still keep at you lie about "throwaway ships". you've been proven wrong, repeatedely. Why do you still hold onto your strawman?

Mike Voidstar wrote:

So just grief killing bears with no stake of your own in the fight, and no realistic chance of losing the fight is what was bad for the game. If it had been corrected sooner the game would be better off now.

again, grasping at your obvious lie. Hunters risk not less than average bear. stop trying to get away with your lie and use it somehow as argument. The effort never was in the kill, yes, but in the hunt. Actually not hard to understand but you keep ignoring it, because it doesnt fit the rest of your weak argumentation.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#152 - 2015-06-24 16:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Your entire argument revolves around not being able anymore to use rat dps to kill larger ships with frigates and destroyers.

I have flown frigates in high dps missions, and know it can be done with Sig tanking. You can even do it up to a point while staying in point range of another ship. Of course some of those bears are packing webs, so your mileage varies.

The activity you hold as so high and holy was bad gameplay, poor game design, and harmful to the game as a whole. It got fixed. You can still hunt whoever you wish, but you will have to apply a little more brain power to it than just flying under guns and using a neut and scram while NPCs do your killing for you.
W0lf Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2015-06-24 17:48:39 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
My point is that if i point them they should be forced to 1v1 me, and it should not me being forced to 1v1 him and also tank the entire site (cause everything swaps). That isnt as big an issue with stuff like tanky cruisers or bs cause tanking the site isnt that hard usually but for ships whos primary defence isnt paper tank and/or ehp but getting under guns and signature and mobility its almost impossible.



Your point is forgetting a few key points of combat.

First, you are the aggressor. You have the initiative to pick if you will attack or not. The choice of ship was yours, the choice of fittings, even the hunting grounds so you knew the damage profile the environment would be throwing your way.

Second, You know the behavior of the environment. Plan appropriately. You get to choose when you attack, so maybe don't do it with a whole bunch of stuff around, or use other means to keep your target from getting away. I know for a fact that the rats won't stay on you because of ewar, they just don't like it. Non-Consensual PvE is an element of every game, so obvious that it never really gets discussed.



If you bring other games up, if i gank someone in wow who is pveing, you know who the mobs keep attacking? The players that aggroed them, they will never switch to me unless i draw aggro. Works that way in every single theme park mmo so dont bring that up. Also works that way in pretty much every rpg or similar offline game, hell even works that way in fps.


Also, your enitre point is totally blob him or totally outclass him and leave him no chance at all or dont even try while mine is that if you outclass or blob what the rats shoot doesnt matter and that they prevent the actual gfs.
Mark Hadden
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2015-06-24 18:18:57 UTC
[qwesdrfggedsgdfghuote=Mike Voidstar]Your entire argument revolves around not being able anymore to use rat dps to kill larger ships with frigates and destroyers.
[/quote]

dont tell me what my argument revolves around, everybody can read it up on these 8 pages.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

I have flown frigates in high dps missions, and know it can be done with Sig tanking. You can even do it up to a point while staying in point range of another ship. Of course some of those bears are packing webs, so your mileage varies.

stop lying.
Thats not working since NPC jam, damp, tracking disrupt and shoot you once you're there.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

The activity you hold as so high and holy was bad gameplay, poor game design

half eve is bad game design, point made is that entire PvP profession got screwed for no real reason, while CCP was fixing PvE.


Mike Voidstar wrote:
, and harmful to the game as a whole.

citation needed

Mike Voidstar wrote:
It got fixed.

no it got broken even more

Mike Voidstar wrote:
You can still hunt whoever you wish, but you will have to apply a little more brain power to it than just flying under guns and using a neut and scram while NPCs do your killing for you.

you exactly know thats not true, you again ignoring 8 pages of text. And thats why you defend new broken NPCs, who protect you while you farm them.
Javeeik
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#155 - 2015-06-24 21:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Javeeik
TL:DR

Stop moaning and learn to adapt if the ai was half decent theyd shaft you in your tiny ship regardless.


Post:

Jesus H Christ this is actually an infuriating read. There have been a few valid counter arguments on both sides but largely just blind ignorance to any point of view.

The rats first of all are nobodys buddy. Not your's not the PvE'r they dont know you from adam and you're in their domain and they will happily shaft you every which way on saturday if you are in their space. If your ship can't handle them well you should expect to explode the moment you enter.

I agree that currently the way aggro switches is bad. But it's more than reasonable to expect that a good chunk of the rats should swap to you, and your interceptor wouldn't survive a few mobs anyhow. If you wouldn't go inside that plex in your current ship on your own knowing the mobs would destroy you why should you be able to go in it and because someone else already there? Its unreasonable to expect you should be ignored by the rats.

Validating your arguments using the mechanics from other games is just daft. For 2 main reason's:
A) just because x game does it one way does not make that right correct or good.
B) (mot importantly) This is EvE, it's not WoW or GW2 or any other MMO, its not any other game it's EvE... so other games mechanics are irrelevant and a redundant argument for that alone.

As I Said above I can see why you say the AI is broken to a certain extent, and I agree it's dumb (the AI).
But that doesn't mean you should get a free ride just because you target someone they are already shooting.
The enemy of my enemy is not always your friend and in this case is just another target that came in their "home".

You all have relevant points but I think the fact is you shouldnt be able to go inside a complex in a ship that cannot handle the content inside. Or rather in a ships that is so massively inadaquately able to handle the rats.

Yes the AI needs improving it should be more intelligent, use more ewar, neuts and it should disrupt scram people more often. it should make better decisions and choose primary targets in a better way. and it should know within a reasonable margin how many guys it needs to peel off from its main group to at the very least hold onto your little frigate and finish that off. That would make for a much better game but unfortunately for you it would still mean you need to do more than just hold a point on someone and let rats do your dps, because that is also a broken mechanic.
Mark Hadden
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#156 - 2015-06-24 21:27:02 UTC
AI protecting the PvEer does the smallest sense, really.
Javeeik
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#157 - 2015-06-24 22:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Javeeik
It isnt protecting him though is it.

you are acting like a toddler seriously did you actually read any of my (granted long and poorly punctuated) post? If so click the edit button and try again. See if you can conjure up something well reasoned that covers what i said. I might disagree with you but ive actually explained why and rationalised it something you consistently fail to do, at least Wolf backs up his statements with half decent rationale.
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#158 - 2015-06-25 06:11:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Also, your enitre point is totally blob him .



lets focus on the blobbing. As been mentioned as its the only viable way now.


Lets roll back the clock to the good old days. Ratter aggro'd room, they loved him long time.


What exactly is the difference from a solo pvp'er using, and what happened many times needing, the rats to help the kill from say a 10 man hit team to bring the ratter down from a human run "blob"?

You see I am seeing the NPC assistance as still being a blob. Its say 10 NPC rats (have old boy jumped in a fresh wave in a CA) being dps backup to the solo pvp'er. This to me is not solo pvp. Its blob tactics. The blob in this case was just not player controlled.

Its still the earmark of the "blob". N+1 gang tactics. No rule says N has to be human controlled.

It was in no way different from a 10 man roam jumping the target.

What would a 10 man roam "blob" roam do? fast tackle locks down target calls warp to....10 peeps land, target, press f1.


Sounds a lot like the old system. Only difference is player interaction is damn near removed beyond tackle tackling. Put another way...it got a hell of a lot easier as it completely removed the fc herding a bunch of cats aspect player fleets can have. As well....the rats already there and they have pressed their F1 already. Don't have to tell them to shoot the target. They were proactive and have been doing that a while now lol.

This is where I just can't get behind these ideas. YOu all keep saying we have to blob it. Many were blobbing it in the old system. Some number of rats was your DPS backup, e-war as well in the case of some rats. It was still N+1. It was the "blob".
Mark Hadden
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2015-06-25 07:28:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Javeeik wrote:
It isnt protecting him though is it.

you are acting like a toddler seriously did you actually read any of my (granted long and poorly punctuated) post? If so click the edit button and try again. See if you can conjure up something well reasoned that covers what i said. I might disagree with you but ive actually explained why and rationalised it something you consistently fail to do, at least Wolf backs up his statements with half decent rationale.


no I honestly didnt completely, it was so bad and unreadable so I quit at some point in the mid of it, furthermore you didnt raise anything that hasnt been discussed prior..

I provided 8 pages of clearly obvious arguments here, almost my every single posting here had an argument,
idk how you could miss them - stop telling blatant lies like this, seriously wtf.

here a short summary of all points I provided
(please dont start on this again, all of that has been reiterated x times on previous 8 pages):

- rat aggro skewed the balance for hunters and raised the requirements beyond viability (evident from killboards)
- rat aggro killed all realistic chances for solos to catch prey because required gear is too heavy and slow (you need nano)
-> risk of hunting out of scale compared to reward (heavy stuff easy to bait, easy to catch + nice killmail <-> little success)
- removed (or as good) whole class of pvp content (solo hunters, see prior reasons)
- rat aggro stacks on top of other game changes which made ratting lots safer (MJD, marauders, shift to cruiser meta)
- massively decreased risk for farmers resulting from above reasons, totally unneccessary
- environment protecting the farmer makes no sense, from gameplay as lore reasons

on the contrary there is basically one single argument which isnt even a good one:
- rats helping the ganker is unfair, "this allows you to gank me with a throwaway ship"



Zan Shiro wrote:

What exactly is the difference from a solo pvp'er using, and what happened many times needing, the rats to help the kill from say a 10 man hit team to bring the ratter down from a human run "blob"?

You see I am seeing the NPC assistance as still being a blob. Its say 10 NPC rats (have old boy jumped in a fresh wave in a CA) being dps backup to the solo pvp'er. This to me is not solo pvp. Its blob tactics. The blob in this case was just not player controlled.

the difference is that he can 1) tank this blob 2) leave anytime he likes (mostly).


Zan Shiro wrote:

It was in no way different from a 10 man roam jumping the target.

sure it is. The "blob" the ratter spawned serves him as ISK source, while the other definitely doesnt.
Totally the same.. What a ridiculous argument, honestly. Damage-wise maybe there is remote similarity,
but still its the damage you spawned by yourself for farming, so you should eat most of its damage and take
care noone else grabs you with pants down in such a situation. That blob you're farming shouldnt protect
you from any pvp engagement, which it is basically doing now - this is ridiculous.

Zan Shiro wrote:

Sounds a lot like the old system. Only difference is player interaction is damn near removed beyond tackle tackling. Put another way...it got a hell of a lot easier as it completely removed the fc herding a bunch of cats aspect player fleets can have.

You can not have always a gang of people + FC dedicated to hunting ratters, but you can always be 1 solo guy doing that. Thats why I say NPC changes removed pvp and made ratting insanely safer for no reason, simply because there cant be solo proteuses, machariels or bricktanked ishtars constantly roaming your space in the place of bomber or recon pilots from pre-Retribution.
Javeeik
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#160 - 2015-06-25 11:01:19 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
Javeeik wrote:
It isnt protecting him though is it.

you are acting like a toddler seriously did you actually read any of my (granted long and poorly punctuated) post? If so click the edit button and try again. See if you can conjure up something well reasoned that covers what i said. I might disagree with you but ive actually explained why and rationalised it something you consistently fail to do, at least Wolf backs up his statements with half decent rationale.


no I honestly didnt completely, it was so bad and unreadable so I quit at some point in the mid of it, furthermore you didnt raise anything that hasnt been discussed prior..

I provided 8 pages of clearly obvious arguments here, almost my every single posting here had an argument,
idk how you could miss them - stop telling blatant lies like this, seriously wtf.

here a short summary of all points I provided
(please dont start on this again, all of that has been reiterated x times on previous 8 pages):

- rat aggro skewed the balance for hunters and raised the requirements beyond viability (evident from killboards)
- rat aggro killed all realistic chances for solos to catch prey because required gear is too heavy and slow (you need nano)
-> risk of hunting out of scale compared to reward (heavy stuff easy to bait, easy to catch + nice killmail <-> little success)
- removed (or as good) whole class of pvp content (solo hunters, see prior reasons)
- rat aggro stacks on top of other game changes which made ratting lots safer (MJD, marauders, shift to cruiser meta)
- massively decreased risk for farmers resulting from above reasons, totally unneccessary
- environment protecting the farmer makes no sense, from gameplay as lore reasons

on the contrary there is basically one single argument which isnt even a good one:
- rats helping the ganker is unfair, "this allows you to gank me with a throwaway ship"


In Fairness yes you're right that post was awfull on a whole new level! I wrote that on my phone half asleep in bed and marginally irritated by some of the entitled and upset replies. So i'm sorry for the Sh*t post i've edited it so it make some resemblance of coherance!