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Why can drone ships use up-size weapons?!

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2015-06-23 16:13:36 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
why do you think that sentries are "sized-up" weapons?? They are drones which require lots of bandwidth, yes, but thats it - there were cruiser ships with enough bandwidth for sentries.
Drones are not guns.


You're right. Guns don't have selectable damage. Guns don't have infinite ammo. Guns can't engage from any range. Guns can't be placed over there while I shoot you from over here. Guns can't be pulled back and redeployed, forcing you to re-lock your target. Guns can't allow me to do frig, cruiser and BS damage as I see fit, on a hull of my choosing.


Lasers can have infinite ammo if you stick with T1 ammo. And I've almost never run out of T2 or faction ammo with lasers in a PvP engagement. And oddly smart bombs or other guns can't shoot the guns off my ship...but for some reason I often lose my drones. I know, lets limit the size, but make them immune to being shot, smart bombs, and bombs. Okay?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#22 - 2015-06-23 16:29:36 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
why do you think that sentries are "sized-up" weapons?? They are drones which require lots of bandwidth, yes, but thats it - there were cruiser ships with enough bandwidth for sentries.
Drones are not guns.


You're right. Guns don't have selectable damage. Guns don't have infinite ammo. Guns can't engage from any range. Guns can't be placed over there while I shoot you from over here. Guns can't be pulled back and redeployed, forcing you to re-lock your target. Guns can't allow me to do frig, cruiser and BS damage as I see fit, on a hull of my choosing.


Lasers can have infinite ammo if you stick with T1 ammo. And I've almost never run out of T2 or faction ammo with lasers in a PvP engagement. And oddly smart bombs or other guns can't shoot the guns off my ship...but for some reason I often lose my drones. I know, lets limit the size, but make them immune to being shot, smart bombs, and bombs. Okay?


Lasers aren't Hybrids or Projectiles. So what if they have infinite T1 ammo? Does that represent all weapons used in all engagements? Do people even use T1 ammo?

"You can destroy my drones, that makes them balanced"

I've never seen people crying about drones being destructible. If it was truly a drawback, there would be threads every day complaining about how bad they are and yet there are not. Hardly seems like a drawback at all, in fact it seems so insignificant that no-one even bothers to complain about it.

Oh god.
Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2015-06-23 16:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Leoric Firesword
afkalt wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Which big ships? Carriers?



All of them.

He explicitly mentions that ships bigger than destroyers get to use frigate sized drones.

This is very much a case, imo, of be careful what you ask for.


you can also slap small lasers on a 'geddon, your argument here is moot.

EDIT: I'm a drone boat user, and I loves me drone boats, but sentries on cruisers is really just too powerful.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#24 - 2015-06-23 16:36:20 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
why do you think that sentries are "sized-up" weapons?? They are drones which require lots of bandwidth, yes, but thats it - there were cruiser ships with enough bandwidth for sentries.
Drones are not guns.


You're right. Guns don't have selectable damage. Guns don't have infinite ammo. Guns can't engage from any range. Guns can't be placed over there while I shoot you from over here. Guns can't be pulled back and redeployed, forcing you to re-lock your target. Guns can't allow me to do frig, cruiser and BS damage as I see fit, on a hull of my choosing.


Well... Projectiles have selectable cap free damage, as do missiles. Lasers have infinite ammo. Guns don't suffer from drone control range, you can engage what you lock. Guns can't be shot out of space without defeating my tank. Guns have options with implants not available to drones.

You are right that drones have some unique qualities. They also have unique and powerful drawbacks.

I can agree that perhaps looking at bandwidth on some boats would be appropriate, but drones themselves still have significant tradeoffs to justify their abilities.


No they dont. They have EM/THERMAL/EXPLO with some other variants as a combo of explo/kinetic damage which do low damage. Capless yes. Also arty tracking cannot compare to sentry. Sentries are better than arty in all ways. Which include shooting strictly kinetic. I know you arent comparing acs, cause theyre **** and cant kill much of anything past 20km. I cannot engage a garmur at 50km with my autocannons, sry. I cannot track a frig in orbit at 20km with arty either. If youre in a drone boat though, just release some light drones and youll be fine. Just cause i can lock something, doesnt mean i can do anything about it. My rack of guns can be affected by a single TD. It would take 5 TDs to affect your flight of drones, for one drone ship. Which no one would do. You can damp a turret ship, and then im SOL cause i cant shoot anything. Drones will keep fighting though.

Lasers dont have infinite ammo, the crystals do burn up eventually. I can shoot your drones, but you have a 375m3 drone bay full of replacements. Meanwhile youre taking 0dmg, while im taking all of your damage. On top of that, you have durability bonuses to that 375m3 of drones. You basically have a battleships worth of EHP in drones in your cargobay plus another 30-60k EHP in your ship. Shooting drones as a way to counter drone ships is one of the dumbest excuses i hear. Its possible yes, but highly impractical.

I really think CCP needs to make the decision on drone ships. Either big drone bays, but not bonused HP. Or bonused HP and smaller dronebays. Not both though. Otherwise the whole "you can shoot mah drones" excuse is moot.


I'm sorry... you aren't seriously trying to compare the drones in a dronebay to the reloads you can carry of laser crystals? I mean, if you had tried to argue missiles or projectile ammo, sure... But Lasers instant switching ammo that lasts for eternity per crystal and each one is measured in fractions of m3?

And sure, it's not likely to hit at extreme range if you are using the short range version of a turret, but I'm pretty sure Artillery, Rails and Beams can be made to hit the outer edge of anything your ship can target. It takes mods to get sentries to hit out there too. No matter what the range of the sentry you are still subject to drone control range, even on the Ishtar that's a base of 85km, 60km for everything else. If you allow yourself to be kited inside the engagement envelope of the stationary sentry drones then you should probably rethink your strategy.

And Yes, you can release light drones... and I can't count the light drones I have seen waved away by the drones, smartbombs, and even direct fire of enemies. Drones not coming from a Gurista ship are easy to pop, happens all the time. It's not like that "battleship of EHP" will stand there and keep shooting at you till the very end---you can't ignore that drones stop firing when you kill them individually, so you aren't eating dps from all of them if you are popping them, and they have the signature of a stationary cruiser---and you can just get away from them unless you are somehow tackled.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#25 - 2015-06-23 17:53:37 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


I'm sorry... you aren't seriously trying to compare the drones in a dronebay to the reloads you can carry of laser crystals? I mean, if you had tried to argue missiles or projectile ammo, sure... But Lasers instant switching ammo that lasts for eternity per crystal and each one is measured in fractions of m3?

And sure, it's not likely to hit at extreme range if you are using the short range version of a turret, but I'm pretty sure Artillery, Rails and Beams can be made to hit the outer edge of anything your ship can target. It takes mods to get sentries to hit out there too. No matter what the range of the sentry you are still subject to drone control range, even on the Ishtar that's a base of 85km, 60km for everything else. If you allow yourself to be kited inside the engagement envelope of the stationary sentry drones then you should probably rethink your strategy.

And Yes, you can release light drones... and I can't count the light drones I have seen waved away by the drones, smartbombs, and even direct fire of enemies. Drones not coming from a Gurista ship are easy to pop, happens all the time. It's not like that "battleship of EHP" will stand there and keep shooting at you till the very end---you can't ignore that drones stop firing when you kill them individually, so you aren't eating dps from all of them if you are popping them, and they have the signature of a stationary cruiser---and you can just get away from them unless you are somehow tackled.


No im not comparing laser m3 to dronebay. I was stating that laser crystals are not infinite. They do burn out eventually. Probably could have spaced that out better.

My muninn does about 190-220dps to 90km with 720s and locks out to 100km. Doing that takes 2 TC. Its locked into either explo/kinetic to get that range. Ishtars and especially fleet ishtars dont fit guns. A single DLA is not hard to fit. What is the range on bouncers/wardens under the same scenario? With 2 drone tracking computers for comparisons sake.

Dont even get me started on tank/speed comparisons due to the rediculous requirements for arty.

Uhh.. stationary sentry drones.. no. Ishtars burn around dropping sentries and then abandon them and drop another set. Then when youre out of range of that set, here comes another set. Have you even fought a skilled ishtar gang? The ishtar doesnt sit still, its already planning the next area to drop sentries while you are trying to avoid the first set.

If you pay attention to your drone window you can easily recall the drone in a brawl situation meaning your drones dont die if youre good. Losing one drone due to rescoop means you still have 4 that are shooting me, meanwhile my turret ship has done 0 damage to you while i focus on killing drones. If im in a BC/BS or a cruiser the lock time to relock your drones after you scoop/redeploy means i may never even lock your drones to get damage on them. Especially if you juggle the deploy/rescoop to purposely reset my targeting. If your drone dies to a turret ship or other drones, you should probably pull them back in and relaunch. That is an easy counter to someone shooting your drones. If you dont do that, thats your own problem, and not an inherent weakness.

SB use lots of fitting and require a utility high.. can i counter drones with stabber fi? Or a thorax, or my muninn with arty? I dont have the grid for a SB. Not every ship can fit a SB, so its not a one size fits all counter.

Can my turrets still shoot when im damped/jammed?
Can my turrets ignore that sentinel with td?
Can my turrets shoot every damage type on demand by swapping my turrets from acs to hybrids to lasers? While using 0 ammo/cap?

The fact drones can be shot is a very insignificant drawback when considering all the options at your disposal on a droneboat to mitigate that issue. Recall/abandon, huge drone bays and HP bonused drones. Short of a SB battleship, there really are few cases of drones dying in large numbers short of the drone pilots own incompetence to not pull the one being shot in and relaunch.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Juan Mileghere
The Corporate Raiders
Safety.
#26 - 2015-06-23 17:58:39 UTC
Grezh wrote:
Let me shoot guns off a ship and I'll let any other ship fit oversized guns.

Seriously, having your drones destroyed is a big drawback for the weapon system and that is why they must be inherently more powerful in certain ways to compensate such a weakness.

When do drones get primaried realistically?

Blobbing Explained
Aplysia Vejun
Children of Agasul
#27 - 2015-06-23 18:13:02 UTC
Juan Mileghere wrote:

When do drones get primaried realistically?

In nearly every small group fight against non-stupid ennemies
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#28 - 2015-06-23 18:35:28 UTC
Aplysia Vejun wrote:
Juan Mileghere wrote:

When do drones get primaried realistically?

In nearly every small group fight against non-stupid ennemies


That. People in FW region, and more generally LS, are used to shooting drones, because vexors & tristans everywhere, and it drastically reduce damage. Either the guy is in a brawl configuration, and support will blap the drones, either he is trying to kite and drones travel time will destroy his dps. Focusing drones is most of the time a rly good way to not die. Also, decent kitchen sink fleet always has capability to deal with enemy drones.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-06-23 18:37:36 UTC
Kione Keikira wrote:

Small laser Rokh is a thing btw. It shouldn't have to be, but because of how EVE mechanics are it is one.




Okay, lemme stop you there. Small laser Rokh isn't a thing. MrHyde is a thing. A very large thing with a very large stick.


As far as drones, there are certainly some considerations to make with them. Perhaps Sentries need their bandwidth increased. But the Ogre is a large drone as well, a 'battleship' drone, and there doesn't seem to be a problem with ishtars that use Ogre's.


The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2015-06-23 18:40:19 UTC
Frankly a heavy drone ishtar is perfectly fine because the Heavy drone is balanced. The only drones that aren't are sentries which trade one of the drone's weakness (having to move between targets) and some damage for a **** ton of strengths. Sentries would be balanced if you couldn't abandon them or if they just didn't exist anymore.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#31 - 2015-06-23 20:39:00 UTC
Quote:

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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

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