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The Hecate

Author
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-04-11 02:45:49 UTC
Kuekuatsheu wrote:
I just saw the Fanfest presentation about the Hecate and Jackdaw and I'd like to chip in my two cents of the Hecate bonuses, for those who are less in the loop I'll list them for you:

Gallente Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret rate of fire
7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking speed
5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules

Role Bonus:
95% reduction in Scan Probe Launcher CPU requirements

Defense Mode:
33.3% bonus to all armor and hull resistances while Defense Mode is active
33.3% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness while Defense Mode is active

Propulsion Mode:
66.6% bonus to MWD speed boost and reduction in MWD capacitor use while Propulsion Mode is active
33.3% bonus to ship inertia modifier while Propulsion Mode is active

Sharpshooter Mode:
66.6% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range while Sharpshooter Mode is active
100% bonus to sensor strength, scan resolution and targeting range while Sharpshooter Mode is active

Slot Layout: 7H, 4M, 4L, 6 turrets

The way I see it, this ship has 1 obvious flaw, that is Capacitor Usage.

This ship being a hybrid ship needs capacitor to fire, capacitor for it's armor repairer, capacitor for it's MWD (which even with the Propulsion Mode bonus still uses nearly twice as much capacitor per cycle as an Afterburner), then there is the propulsion jamming modules and the obvious need for an explosive armor hardener since all Gallente ships have terrible Explosive resistances.

In the following fit:
6x Light Neuton Blaster II with Void S

1x 1MN Microwarpdrive II
1x Warp Scrambler II
1x Stasis Webifier II
1x Small Capacitor Booster II

1x Small Armor Repairer II
1x Armor Explosive Hardener II
1x Damage Control II
1x Energised Adaptive Nano Membrane II

This ship would use:
4.21GJ/sec for its 6 Guns
1.25GJ/sec for its MWD
1.7GJ/sec for its Propulsion Jamming Modules
8.89GJ/sec for its Armor Repairer
1.5GJ/sec for it's Armor Hardener

That's 17.55GJ/sec, more than most PvP Cruisers.

With all these modules running at once even using cap booster 200 charges and using either Semiconductor Memory Cell or Capacitor Control Circuits in all of it's Rig Slots, the Hecate still wouldn't be capacitor stable.

I'd like to propose two changes to this ship to address these ends:

Firstly changing the 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret rate of fire per level to 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level. That way the damage would increase without increasing the capacitor usage.

Secondly reducing the number of Hi Slots to 6 and turret hard points to 5.
To compensate for the loss of a turret hardpoint give the ship 15mbit/sec drone bandwidth and a 50m3 drone bay.
Three Hobgoblin II with Max skills would provide the Hecate 59.4 dps.
One Small Neuton Blaster II with Void S and Max skills including the Hecate's bonuses provides 53.3 dps.
An acceptable trade.

With this the Hecate would have reduced the Capacitor need for it's Guns from 4.21GJ/sec to a much more reasonable 2.80GJ/sec, that means the ship can be Cap Stable with the Active Buffering fit, has comparable DPS and will be able to use drones which will please the die hard Gallente.

Also, and you can thank me later for pointing this out, the Hecate won't turn into a up-armored Catalyst with three Magnetic Field Stabilizers and a Damage Control that has no issues using a Microwarpdrive constantly due to the massively reduced capacitor cost and signature radius.


When this thing is released i'm inviting you for a match of 5 rounds so we could try and see how bad is it.


"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Kuekuatsheu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-04-11 03:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuekuatsheu
Tiddle Jr wrote:
When this thing is released i'm inviting you for a match of 5 rounds so we could try and see how bad is it.


I never said it would be OP or UP, i just think most people will default to using 3 Magnetic Field Stabilizers and using it as a Hull/Armor tank with crazy MWD bonuses rather than the active buffer tank it was designed to be. Seems wasteful I'm suggesting reducing it's capacitor draw and investing 18% of the ships DPS into drones so using the low slots as Magnetic Field Stabilizers is not the only fit worth using.

Edit: After reviewing all the Tactical Destroyers it's safe to say I'm offically in camp Svipul (those defensive bonuses are just dumb), however the Hecate is my 2nd favorite, then Confessor (reasonable EHP Armor tank for a destroyer), least favorite is the Jackdaw, I fail to see the point of lots of agility on a missile boat since missiles only really travel in straight lines (JOKE!) but seriously wtf on the reversed propulsion bonuses.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-04-11 05:59:23 UTC
Kuekuatsheu wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
When this thing is released i'm inviting you for a match of 5 rounds so we could try and see how bad is it.




Edit:I fail to see the point of lots of agility on a missile boat since missiles only really travel in straight lines (JOKE!) but seriously wtf on the reversed propulsion bonuses.


So you can fly it like a frigate that costs many dozens of times the price? I imagine its to allow it to serve in what I anticipate will be its "brawler" build rather than the kiter that it's like to become.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-04-11 06:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
This has already been pointed out but -

33% bonus to hull resistances, all you need to know about this ship. Hull tanked Gallente ships are already really really good and that's with 60% standard resist. If this thing has decent hull hp....two t2 reinforced bulkheads and 3 t2 hull rigs will make this ship a monster. I'm terrified yet oddly excited to see the first man-tanked Hecate in action.

Is it known how much structure this ship is getting?
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#25 - 2015-04-11 13:18:46 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
The Hecate's defensive mode is way out of line when compared to the other T3 Dessies. That thing is going to be a load of fun. I guess I should train into it or something.


You know the entire line, whether released or not, is going to get nerfed into the stone age soon, yeah?


Sounds pessimistic so you are one of those who won't fly them huh


Being a realist and understanding that something is way OP and in for a nerf does not in anyway prevent a person from having fun while it lasts.

It just means you probably won't see Ginger getting all upset when said nerf happens.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Darth Magus
The Lone Magus
#26 - 2015-06-20 16:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Magus
Kuekuatsheu wrote:
I just saw the Fanfest presentation about the Hecate and Jackdaw and I'd like to chip in my two cents of the Hecate bonuses, for those who are less in the loop I'll list them for you:

Gallente Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret rate of fire
7.5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret tracking speed
5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules

Role Bonus:
95% reduction in Scan Probe Launcher CPU requirements

Defense Mode:
33.3% bonus to all armor and hull resistances while Defense Mode is active
33.3% bonus to armor repairer effectiveness while Defense Mode is active

Propulsion Mode:
66.6% bonus to MWD speed boost and reduction in MWD capacitor use while Propulsion Mode is active
33.3% bonus to ship inertia modifier while Propulsion Mode is active

Sharpshooter Mode:
66.6% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range while Sharpshooter Mode is active
100% bonus to sensor strength, scan resolution and targeting range while Sharpshooter Mode is active

Slot Layout: 7H, 4M, 4L, 6 turrets

The way I see it, this ship has 1 obvious flaw, that is Capacitor Usage.

This ship being a hybrid ship needs capacitor to fire, capacitor for it's armor repairer, capacitor for it's MWD (which even with the Propulsion Mode bonus still uses nearly twice as much capacitor per cycle as an Afterburner), then there is the propulsion jamming modules and the obvious need for an explosive armor hardener since all Gallente ships have terrible Explosive resistances.

In the following fit:
6x Light Neuton Blaster II with Void S

1x 1MN Microwarpdrive II
1x Warp Scrambler II
1x Stasis Webifier II
1x Small Capacitor Booster II

1x Small Armor Repairer II
1x Armor Explosive Hardener II
1x Damage Control II
1x Energised Adaptive Nano Membrane II

This ship would use:
4.21GJ/sec for its 6 Guns
1.25GJ/sec for its MWD
1.7GJ/sec for its Propulsion Jamming Modules
8.89GJ/sec for its Armor Repairer
1.5GJ/sec for it's Armor Hardener

That's 17.55GJ/sec, more than most PvP Cruisers.

With all these modules running at once cycling cap booster 200 charges and using either Semiconductor Memory Cell or Capacitor Control Circuits in all of it's Rig Slots, the Hecate still would barely be capacitor stable (19.6GJ/sec with cap booser 200 cycling).

I'd like to propose two changes to this ship to address these ends:

Firstly changing the 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret rate of fire per level to 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level. That way the damage would increase without increasing the capacitor usage.

Secondly reducing the number of Hi Slots to 6 and turret hard points to 5.
To compensate for the loss of a turret hardpoint give the ship 15mbit/sec drone bandwidth and a 50m3 drone bay.
Three Hobgoblin II with Max skills would provide the Hecate 59.4 dps.
One Small Neuton Blaster II with Void S and Max skills including the Hecate's bonuses provides 53.3 dps.
An acceptable trade.

With this the Hecate would have reduced the Capacitor need for it's Guns from 4.21GJ/sec to a much more reasonable 2.80GJ/sec, that means the ship can be Cap Stable with the Active Buffering fit, has comparable DPS and will be able to use drones which will please the die hard Gallente.

Also, and you can thank me later for pointing this out, the Hecate won't turn into a up-armored Catalyst with three Magnetic Field Stabilizers and a Damage Control that has no issues using a Microwarpdrive constantly due to the massively reduced capacitor cost and signature radius.

(Edited for flawed math on the regeneration rate, didn't multiply max capacitor over recharge rate by 2.4 for max regeneration rate at 30%. The sighted fitting which would be a full tank Hecate would be cap stable. Wrote this at 2am local time, gimme a break =P)


1) Well first of all the proposed fit above is very very general. Noone realy uses small armor rep by itself in PVP. It feels like a PVE fit with PVP mods in mids. So that in itself has alot of flaws. Use Small Ancillary Armor rep - it eats way less cap.

2) There are very few ships that can run MWD on indefinitely - and even they require specific fit (cap mods) and possibly deadspace mods (think Garmurs). Plus if you're fitting for brawling - why are you even concerned with running MWD indefinitely? Once you grab your target - you turn off your MWD (if their scram doesnt do the courtesy for you) and brawl them down.

3) Thirdly - adding a % turret dmg bonus would screw up the alpha (on rails for example) as strong alpha - is reserved for the Minnies. On the other hand a % rof bonus makes Rails (and arties) hit much harder (it spikes up overall ship DPS like no tomorrow).

4) You missed the obvious utility high slot. If you "think" that the ship has cap issues - try using a NOS in that high slot. I promise - you will be pleasantly surprised:)

5) if you want to use Hecate as a kitey rail ship (think railtrons, although I would not personally reccomend this) - you would def have to fit it differently if you want cap stability and perma-MWD

...So while your propositions were somewhat thought out, they definitaly have alot of assumptions not based on any concrete evidence or analysis of how Gallente ships work in PVP.

5/10
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#27 - 2015-06-22 13:56:42 UTC
[Hecate, Use Party Pants]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Small Transverse Bulkhead I
Small Transverse Bulkhead I

If math isn't superbad, around 10k ehp with 5.5k hull ehp. Needs 1%-PG imp. Pushes through the entire AAR-mag in about 20secs, that's long before your capacitor is dry. Deals 698.5dps cold without implants at spitting range, but has scram and two webs anyways.
With 2 3%-hardwirings and heat, you're looking at 847dps.
Decripid Sano
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-06-23 08:56:02 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I am sad that the Hecate is not going to be a badass light/medium drone platform. I know everyone (myself included) bitches about how OP drones are but they are supposed to be Gallente's unique weapon system and I was hoping the Hecate would do something interesting in the drone department.


There's plenty of drone platforms around already, what more do you need?? I guess everyone's already forgotten about the Algos and Dragoon.
Ortilus Orsides
Doomheim
#29 - 2015-06-23 10:07:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ortilus Orsides
Enjoy the OPnes of this ship while you can, cause it's gonna get gutted like a fish come the next patch right after it's release.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#30 - 2015-06-23 10:25:25 UTC
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
Enjoy the OPnes of this ship while you can, cause it's gonna get gutted like a fish come the next patch right after it's release.


We can hope. Smile
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2015-06-23 10:38:20 UTC
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
Enjoy the OPnes of this ship while you can, cause it's gonna get gutted like a fish come the next patch right after it's release.


luckly and historicaly all gal's ships became forgotten by devs (even Ishtar's *cough*cough* ... case) as soon as they release them.
so, Iroq and Myself got a high chances of having this ship without changes for years...

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Ortilus Orsides
Doomheim
#32 - 2015-06-23 11:04:49 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
[Hecate, Use Party Pants]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Small Transverse Bulkhead I
Small Transverse Bulkhead I

If math isn't superbad, around 10k ehp with 5.5k hull ehp. Needs 1%-PG imp. Pushes through the entire AAR-mag in about 20secs, that's long before your capacitor is dry. Deals 698.5dps cold without implants at spitting range, but has scram and two webs anyways.
With 2 3%-hardwirings and heat, you're looking at 847dps.


Without no cap booster and If they have neuts, you'd be dead before your AAR runs out of it's first mags. And for some reason unlike the ASBs, without cap the AARs won't rep. And trust me, NO ONE is gonna want to engage this little dragon without neuts.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-06-23 11:15:09 UTC
When this ship is released, will Eve have a tide change and become "T3Ds ONLINE"??
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#34 - 2015-06-23 11:34:12 UTC
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
[Hecate, Use Party Pants]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Small Transverse Bulkhead I
Small Transverse Bulkhead I

If math isn't superbad, around 10k ehp with 5.5k hull ehp. Needs 1%-PG imp. Pushes through the entire AAR-mag in about 20secs, that's long before your capacitor is dry. Deals 698.5dps cold without implants at spitting range, but has scram and two webs anyways.
With 2 3%-hardwirings and heat, you're looking at 847dps.


Without no cap booster and If they have neuts, you'd be dead before your AAR runs out of it's first mags. And for some reason unlike the ASBs, without cap the AARs won't rep. And trust me, NO ONE is gonna want to engage this little dragon without neuts.


Cause I'm totally going to engage a sentinel in such a fit Roll

Just because it would run dry eventually is far from a reason to fit a CB. I'm flying AAR canes with a neut and mwd. People told me that doesn't work when in fact I didn't cap once yet. Same is expected from the hecate. You got ~900-1k capacitor. If you manage to cap yourself out by running that AAR or similar, please skill yourself or get good at target selection.
Ortilus Orsides
Doomheim
#35 - 2015-06-23 15:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ortilus Orsides
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
[Hecate, Use Party Pants]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Damage Control II

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Small Transverse Bulkhead I
Small Transverse Bulkhead I

If math isn't superbad, around 10k ehp with 5.5k hull ehp. Needs 1%-PG imp. Pushes through the entire AAR-mag in about 20secs, that's long before your capacitor is dry. Deals 698.5dps cold without implants at spitting range, but has scram and two webs anyways.
With 2 3%-hardwirings and heat, you're looking at 847dps.


Without no cap booster and If they have neuts, you'd be dead before your AAR runs out of it's first mags. And for some reason unlike the ASBs, without cap the AARs won't rep. And trust me, NO ONE is gonna want to engage this little dragon without neuts.


Cause I'm totally going to engage a sentinel in such a fit Roll

Just because it would run dry eventually is far from a reason to fit a CB. I'm flying AAR canes with a neut and mwd. People told me that doesn't work when in fact I didn't cap once yet. Same is expected from the hecate. You got ~900-1k capacitor. If you manage to cap yourself out by running that AAR or similar, please skill yourself or get good at target selection.


Don't get me wrong, I like this fit. Since the ship is slow it's gonna need dual webs to hold a target down while hammering out 800+ dps. I just wanted an explanation from you on how you were planning on sustaining your cap without boosters since this ship is way more cap thirsty than the other T3Ds. If there's a T3D ship that needed 2 utility high, It's this one.
Syrilian
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-06-23 15:51:23 UTC
So will this ship be used for exploration with the probe scanner CPU reduction?
Paranoid Loyd
#37 - 2015-06-23 16:17:32 UTC
Syrilian wrote:
So will this ship be used for exploration with the probe scanner CPU reduction?

Yes, that's one of it's uses...

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Syrilian
Doomheim
#38 - 2015-06-23 16:26:16 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Syrilian wrote:
So will this ship be used for exploration with the probe scanner CPU reduction?

Yes, that's one of it's uses...


Probably not one of the best uses of it though eh? :)
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#39 - 2015-06-23 22:52:40 UTC
Ortilus Orsides wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I like this fit. Since the ship is slow it's gonna need dual webs to hold a target down while hammering out 800+ dps. I just wanted an explanation from you on how you were planning on sustaining your cap without boosters since this ship is way more cap thirsty than the other T3Ds.


I wasn't planning on sustaining. Don't have to sustain your target very long with such damage. Make it a social event and get a friend along and you'll have 1500+ dps to gank with.

For honourabru pvp there are most certainly better fits, but if you just land on someone and start melting it 30-40secs of cap should be sufficient.
Azda Ja
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2015-06-23 23:15:53 UTC
Syrilian wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Syrilian wrote:
So will this ship be used for exploration with the probe scanner CPU reduction?

Yes, that's one of it's uses...


Probably not one of the best uses of it though eh? :)

I have a feeling Ralph and Omarr are going to have a fun time using it to mission bait. No scan alt needed either, can do it all in one ship.

Grrr.

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