These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

[PRESS] Hilen Tukoss neural tissue sample analysis; other releases

Author
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#21 - 2015-06-16 04:59:09 UTC
You know, Scherezad, Ishukone and Zainou naturally have an interest in the interplay between burn scanners and novel clone architecture. We'll have to take this to some associates off-forum.

That said, my understanding during your and Tenebrae's analysis was that the burn was abnormally powerful or accurate...? Tissue damage increases proportionally with the effect of the burn scan itself, if I'm recalling correctly...?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#22 - 2015-06-16 05:15:11 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
You know, Scherezad, Ishukone and Zainou naturally have an interest in the interplay between burn scanners and novel clone architecture. We'll have to take this to some associates off-forum.

That said, my understanding during your and Tenebrae's analysis was that the burn was abnormally powerful or accurate...? Tissue damage increases proportionally with the effect of the burn scan itself, if I'm recalling correctly...?

It seemed fairly significant - within scope for a normal burn scan, but high enough that we were wondering if it was an outlier! It may well be. With that sort of neural structure it's difficult to say. Normally we would look at the spread of damage through the columnar layers to determine burn strength, but we weren't able to do that here, obviously.
Doctor Valate
Delve Medical Services
#23 - 2015-06-16 05:22:59 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Is it normal for the initial response to a scientific publication on the IGS to be met with immediate suggestions of conspiracy?


Oh yes, particularly with anything to do with brains, it would seem.

Test some Sebiestor brains ? Ooooo, the test subjects must have all been conspiring with each other to manipulate the results, says the IGS.

Rather a silly response, if you ask me.


That said, there are a lot of rather odd circumstances surrounding this whole affair, which tends to promote the formation of conspiracy theories.

The solution, as it always is in Science, is to cram your brain into the cracks of the universe, and lever them apart with the power of scientific thought, revealing what is underneath.

Doctor Valerie Valate. Not to be confused with the other Valerie Valate.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#24 - 2015-06-16 05:23:19 UTC
Hmmm. I see. It might be interesting to see if we can identify a designer clone blank in use by Eifyr & Co. or Poteque that we could use for testing, if it's simply a very rare production model.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Anslo
Scope Works
#25 - 2015-06-16 06:46:17 UTC
Good job Priano

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
#26 - 2015-06-16 08:06:04 UTC
Lucas Raholan wrote:

whether they deem to declare it 'lack of compliance' is irrelevant, they failed to comply with their own edict when they completely and utterly failed to prevent the ransacking of our Empire by a bunch of Matari savages. I see no reason to place trust in a group that can't even back itself up, let alone defend the cluster. Your offer of assistance is most welcome though


so, it's not so much fun when the boot is on the other foot?
Maybe the lesson you took from the Elder's attack was the wrong one 'holder'.

-Tertianus Rethelior

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.

Reinheart Novan
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#27 - 2015-06-16 08:52:45 UTC
Well done to the teams involved both in the exploration of these systems and for the investigation of this sample.

I do find the links to the Sisters of Eve intriguing. Given their presence within the system now known as Thera and now this it seems to indicate this group has more involvement in what is going on than one would expect of a simple aid agency.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-06-16 09:30:27 UTC
I'm not one for conspiracy theories, though I inherently do not trust either the Empire governments or major corporation boards. In both cases their main concern is self preservation and increase in profit (or Imperial power).

Several things trouble me with regards to this whole mess.

If the footage we saw was from a reasonable time ago then why was Tukoss' body still floating in space? We know the drifters are using biomass so why would they not have taken his? Why also would they leave sleeper bodies floating in hard vacuum rather than treating them with some respect and removing them?

We are assuming that the body found was indeed the body Tokoss was inhabiting in the footage. It could easily be a clone and even an old one at that. I have three corpses out there somewhere and any one of those could be dumped in a location to claim I was killed there. Naturally the DNA would be a perfect match.

Another point that concerns me is with respect to the drifters themselves. They are clearly powerful and we have evidence of a large fleet. We are being whipped up into a defensive (and greed driven in many cases) fervor with regards to the threat they pose. Yet they have not attacked en masse. Why would a large fleet with superior weaponry give up the advantage of surprise and numbers by dispersing their forces and simply popping up here and there? If they had intended to attack surely they would have done so decisively, in force and out of the void.

This would have made more sense as they could have utterly destroyed any fleet at anchor with little effort, and as a by-product harvested enormous amounts of biomass. They didn't. This along with Hilen's reference to them seeming to be in panic makes me wonder whether they are running from something. Or gathering for a defensive engagement.

Too many questions and not enough answers for me right now, I prefer to make decisions based on evidence rather than supposition. However I am extremely concerned about the rise in anti-drifter thinking. Yes we must be prepared should they prove to be hostile, but we must also hold in mind the possibility that they may be running from a greater threat.
H1de0
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#29 - 2015-06-16 11:02:25 UTC  |  Edited by: H1de0
Scherezad wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
You know, Scherezad, Ishukone and Zainou naturally have an interest in the interplay between burn scanners and novel clone architecture. We'll have to take this to some associates off-forum.

That said, my understanding during your and Tenebrae's analysis was that the burn was abnormally powerful or accurate...? Tissue damage increases proportionally with the effect of the burn scan itself, if I'm recalling correctly...?

It seemed fairly significant - within scope for a normal burn scan, but high enough that we were wondering if it was an outlier! It may well be. With that sort of neural structure it's difficult to say. Normally we would look at the spread of damage through the columnar layers to determine burn strength, but we weren't able to do that here, obviously.


First of all I would like to congratulate dr. Tenebrae and dr. Scherezad on successfully performing analysis of the provided sample and producing a thorough report detailing it's outcome.

Before expressing my point of view, I would like the elaborate a little more on the "next step" in clone reactivation and any possibilities of failure the lie ahead.

Common knowledge is that FTL communication (on which the process of transneural burning scan results transfer is based) utilizes a quantum mechanics dichotomy known as the EPR paradox. Few however are aware that this kind of information transfer is very hard to temper with from the outside of the capsule. Given the nature of this phenomenon it is required that the fluid containing entangled Helium atoms is stored in complete isolation from the outside environment that implies immunity to interference from any external radiation. In this setup the capsule can be considered as an additional layer of protection.

However each information processing system, no matter how isolated or black-boxed, has to be considered as vulnerable when we add data IN/OUT routes in to the mix. In the case above scanner-router link and information encoding modules are Your potential breach gates. Those, in theory, could be compromised but such an act would require infiltrating the capsule layer AND altering the desired data stream. I need not mention, that any POD breach triggers the transfer process almost instantly hence a potential attacker would have nanoseconds at best to try and perform the hack.

Of course, to gain assurance, the capsule remains would have to be examined, but, based on the data we have, my conclusion would have to be that any kind of interference to the scanning or data transfer processes during or before dr. Tukoss's vessel destruction is highly improbable.

Please understand that I'm far off from supporting any conspiracy theories here. However, based on the above, I would consider accepting dr. Tukoss's death as premature.


P.S.
In an off-line discussion Priano-san suggested on experimenting with recently acquired Entosis Link device to test if any potential communications system breaches could be exploited.

Decrypting the Sleeper cache..

Stef Darklighter
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Deepwater Hooligans
#30 - 2015-06-16 19:13:59 UTC
Lucas Raholan wrote:


With the release of this report and the analysis into Hilen's cerebral cortex, I have taken the remains back into my possession for safe archiving and storage befitting the late doctor. In regards to CONCORDS ‘request’ for it to be handed over to them, I must refuse such a request from an organisation that clearly makes no attempt to even respond to the threat posed by the Vigilant Tyrannos, an organisation so incompetent they failed to stop even the Minmatar terrorists they called ‘Elders’ from running rampage and whose edicts have lead to a state of forever war between empires causing untold numbers of deaths, all while still purporting to stand for the protection of peace. Such a group is not one I care to trust or even believe can stand against a foe with clear technological superiority.

They are welcome to our published results from our own investigation of which they observed taking place; however, Hilen’s remains won’t be ending up in one of their classified vaults to never be seen again.


In the event Concord chooses to abandon all pretenses and attempts to take the artifact, I can offer you safe haven in both Nullsec and certain wormhole systems; they will not dare to pursue you into these regions. Additionally, if you require firepower, my guns stand with you. It is the tyranny of Concord which drove me to leave Empire space for the lawless wilds of Tenerifs.

Regardless, I wish you luck in your quest!

"I just wanna do hood-rat things with my friends"

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#31 - 2015-06-17 14:29:28 UTC
Reinheart Novan wrote:
Well done to the teams involved both in the exploration of these systems and for the investigation of this sample.

I do find the links to the Sisters of Eve intriguing. Given their presence within the system now known as Thera and now this it seems to indicate this group has more involvement in what is going on than one would expect of a simple aid agency.


I'm not sure much can be read into the presence of Sisters implants, as many pilots currently use 'Virtue' and 'Ascendancy' implant sets already. Tukoss may simply have been using those sets. Mind, I don't believe we had a large enough sample to determine which implant set was present. Were these proprietary implants, it'd be another thing altogether.

Mind, Eifyr & Co. has worked with the Sisters before, so who knows? They may have been, again.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#32 - 2015-06-18 06:59:01 UTC
It's possible that the scan didn't take, it's possible that the information wasn't transferred, and it's possible that someone sabotaged clone bank.

I think it more likely that Hilen Tukoss was revived at an unknown facility and is lying low. If the Drifters were after me, that's what I'd do.

Scherezad wrote:
Is...

Dr. Priano-haani, is it normal for the initial response to a scientific publication on the IGS to be met with immediate suggestions of conspiracy?

Not at all. It's most improper.

However, evaluating the sartorial choices of those involved is common. You're looking lovely, dear. Beautiful dress there.

Quote:
I am perfectly willing to field questions regarding my work here (I conducted around sixty non-destructive thin-slice tests for this publication) but I'm not really comfortable with replying to ... conspiracy theory.

Am I still proceeding with submitting this to the Journal of Intergalactic Neuroanatomy and Neuroanalytics?

There's evidence that the man used nano-cranial devices from the Sisters of Eve. That's an organization with a tendency to roll out new and non-standard technology.

Is there any previous occasion where their devices have interfered with or altered a burn? Have you possibly contacted them and asked if they might know anything in regards to this?

Can you do into a bit more depth about the oddities in this man’s brain configuration? Have you seen irregularities like this previously?

I lack your expertise and, to be honest, I read about fifteen pages of your work but didn’t understand much of the terminology.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#33 - 2015-06-18 14:39:18 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
evaluating the sartorial choices of those involved is common. You're looking lovely, dear. Beautiful dress there.


Hello Makkal-haani :) You can always be relied on to brighten my day! Thank you. I do my best to keep up with you.

Makkal Hanaya wrote:
There's evidence that the man used nano-cranial devices from the Sisters of Eve. That's an organization with a tendency to roll out new and non-standard technology.

Is there any previous occasion where their devices have interfered with or altered a burn? Have you possibly contacted them and asked if they might know anything in regards to this?

Can you do into a bit more depth about the oddities in this man’s brain configuration? Have you seen irregularities like this previously?

I lack your expertise and, to be honest, I read about fifteen pages of your work but didn’t understand much of the terminology.


The burn process generally doesn't propagate through standard neurological hardware outside of some very specialized devices made by Zainou. Implants are properly signal-blockers, so they will inhibit proper transmission of a burn signal. This isn't generally a problem as it's very rare for an implant to isolate a neuronal structure. I've never heard of that being the case for a Capsuleer, certainly, only in cases of severe damage to the midbrain or lower brain. I've never heard of an implant set altering a burn signal beyond the blocking behaviour, though.I suppose a hormone regulation implant might cause changes in the burn transmission speed as a local effect! An interesting question.

The individual's brain is very strange. Frankly, examining it was much more like examining a fabricated neuronal structure than a humanlike brain. Neocortex is generally fairly organized - it's organized into columns of six layers. Layers 2 and 3 communicate between columns, so these middle layers may be considered cross-communication channels between logical units. For this person, however, these cross-columnar pyramidal neurons exist throughout the column, including layers 1, 4 and 5. Typically, 4 and 5 communicate with the midbrain and are associated with pattern storage and recall.

This suggests that the individual with this brain was able to perform logic on patterns before fully recalling the pattern. Almost as if this individual had instinctual rational capabilities, or could immediately assess the correctness of a memory or thought. That's just guesses on my part, of course, but that sort of deep interconnectedness is very, very far outside of the human experience. I'd also suggest that the individual would perhaps display schizophrenic tendencies, and may have had difficulty following long-chain logical patterns due to interference from the presence of the intercolumnar pyramidal neurons.

I mentioned cephalopoda as a possible connection due to the more generalized neuron structure, and the lack of sulci and gyrii - unheard of in higher mammals. I wasn't able to find any deep connections between the two on investigation, though - it's a surface feature.

If any of that doesn't make sense, please do let me know! I'll break the terminology down for you. I understand that I sort of talk in code sometimes.

- S
Jev North
Doomheim
#34 - 2015-06-18 14:51:44 UTC
I wonder if anyone has kept around a Misu Ban­iya brain bit for comparision.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-06-18 14:56:41 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
...This suggests that the individual with this brain was able to perform logic on patterns before fully recalling the pattern. Almost as if this individual had instinctual rational capabilities, or could immediately assess the correctness of a memory or thought....


This sounds rather like pipelining in some hardware operating systems. Is it possible Hilen was using a new kind of clone? And is the structure similar in any way to the structure of the Drifter brain?
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#36 - 2015-06-18 15:22:48 UTC
Jev North wrote:
I wonder if anyone has kept around a Misu Ban­iya brain bit for comparision.


There remain a number of Baniya cerebral samples in capsuleer possession, and I can consult with a Zainou counterpart to see what the corporation has on Baniya's or general Jovian cerebral structure. That said, I suspect that the Baniya samples are unlikely to match Raholan's Tukoss sample in size and shape, and so may not provide an effective comparison.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#37 - 2015-06-18 15:33:45 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
...This suggests that the individual with this brain was able to perform logic on patterns before fully recalling the pattern. Almost as if this individual had instinctual rational capabilities, or could immediately assess the correctness of a memory or thought....


This sounds rather like pipelining in some hardware operating systems. Is it possible Hilen was using a new kind of clone? And is the structure similar in any way to the structure of the Drifter brain?


Hm. You are perhaps thinking a little too high-level! If I had to use a computer hardware analogy, I'd consider the interconnections to be NOT and AND gates. Multiplex boolean-only pipelines!

This is certainly a new sort of clone - I've never seen anything like it. It might be similar to the Drifter neuromorphology! I'm afraid I haven't had the chance to do any study of any of the recoveries from Drifters. It woudlnt' surprise me if their neuromorphology was rather different from human. This, though... this is very difficult to wrap my head around.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-06-18 15:52:25 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
...This suggests that the individual with this brain was able to perform logic on patterns before fully recalling the pattern. Almost as if this individual had instinctual rational capabilities, or could immediately assess the correctness of a memory or thought....


This sounds rather like pipelining in some hardware operating systems. Is it possible Hilen was using a new kind of clone? And is the structure similar in any way to the structure of the Drifter brain?


Hm. You are perhaps thinking a little too high-level! If I had to use a computer hardware analogy, I'd consider the interconnections to be NOT and AND gates. Multiplex boolean-only pipelines!

This is certainly a new sort of clone - I've never seen anything like it. It might be similar to the Drifter neuromorphology! I'm afraid I haven't had the chance to do any study of any of the recoveries from Drifters. It woudlnt' surprise me if their neuromorphology was rather different from human. This, though... this is very difficult to wrap my head around.


Now that description actually sounds much more like the mythical Babbage machines, complex question in, crank handle once, simple answer out.
Daaaain
Innocent Friend
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2015-06-18 17:39:02 UTC
Man I really wish I could understand all this babble. You fellas are blinding me with science. Is there any way you could explain in layman terms lovely Ms. Scherezad.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#40 - 2015-06-18 18:24:21 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Now that description actually sounds much more like the mythical Babbage machines, complex question in, crank handle once, simple answer out.


That, sir, is actually a very good description of a brain! Cranky simplification machines.
Previous page123Next page