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[New structures] Mooring and docking features

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Author
James Zimmer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#501 - 2015-05-24 15:00:17 UTC
First, reading these comments, it seems like bumping is the issue, not mooring. Maybe it should take a HIC to hold down a Titan, and not any cruiser with an MWD.

Second, the thing's going to have guns, right? If someone points your Titan, or drops a bubble, it should die a comically quick death. I could see a problem where dicters are warped in every minute or so, sacrificing a ton of ships, but effectively pinning the super down. Simple solution: Bubbles don't work near these things.

Third, logging in a safe is always safer. True, but parking at a station will give greater security when you need to do something like bridge people around. You have POS guns, jammers and remote reps to keep you safe, and the ability to moor if something goes bad, unlike a random point in space. Something will have to be done to make sure these things don't go down too fast. Maybe tie it to sov, so they can only be taken out after sov structures fall.

Fourth, people can just log in space and let the sub lapse. True enough, but given the new changes to sov, I doubt this will be as viable as it once was. If you want to use a toon for something else, or leave a super for another player perhaps, you'll need a safe place to park, and this provides it.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#502 - 2015-05-24 15:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Nvm. found my answer in the Dev blog.

That being said. I'd prefer if ships that were moored to a structure when destroyed, remain invulnerable in the structure wreck... and if their owners logged in again / re-subbed, could undock from this wreck in a vulnerable state as per the present mechanics.

They'd either have to escape or get killed. But I think having them lose their ships upon station destruction if they are not online sucks.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Hafwolf
Krieg 7th Brigade
#503 - 2015-05-25 20:53:48 UTC
How about making bubbles not anchor able within say 60 k at a structure. That might help with the problems people are having with the new system. I think because guns will be fitted they will No longer be uncapped by an attacking force. So bubbles might not be a problem any more.
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#504 - 2015-05-27 01:58:30 UTC
Did not go through all 25 pages so apologies if it has already been mentioned.

One mechanic that produces some interesting game play is the changing of password in a POS. It has happened more than once that we find ships floating 150km off a POS simply because someone changed the password but can not fly (and retrieve) ships parked inside the force field which have been forcefully ejected. Sadly, it would seem this "feature" will disappear.

It would be great if we could somehow keep the ability to loot assets (ships/mods) from within a structure without actually having access to it.
Niskin
League of the Lost
#505 - 2015-05-29 18:23:56 UTC
First let me say that I like the idea of what they are trying to do with structures in general. Even though fitting defenses to a POS--like you would a module to a ship--might give me less flexibility than I have currently, I have no issue with that change. The idea of using structures to be able to put up market hubs or other things we can't do now, that is a great idea. With that in mind, the need to be able to dock does go hand in hand with putting up a market hub. So in general I'm fine with all of that.

What isn't a good idea is this concept that: because POS shields have issues that are hard to solve, the only solution is to remove them. Now I don't think docking and POS shields should be implemented together, they should be an either-or choice for any structure. Both are needed for different purposes, but let's be honest, docking in a structure is really no different than docking in a station, and station games suck. If you remove POS shields in favor of docking you will bring the pain of docking games to all. We need both functions available, if these new structures are to maintain and expand the function of structures in EVE.

Nobody seems to want to talk about these edge-cases or "secret problems" as they have been called throughout this thread. Whether it's POS-Bowling or Skynetting or Off-Grid-Boosting, all of these problems have been identified and discussed on these forums in the past. There are no "secret problems," only an unwillingness to deal with them on the dev side. I get it, the old code sucks and should be scrapped, you'll get no disagreement from me there. But rather than writing new code for a bunch of new features that purport to cover all the things the force-field did, just write new force-field code. I have faith in the dev's abilities, but asking them to do something stupid will just result in well-written albeit pointless code.

All the edge-cases that I've ever seen could be solved with one simple force-field design that acknowledges their existence. The force-field should be two parts: #1 Protection, #2 Systems Limitation. The protection aspect would mirror the current force-field size and functionality. If you are inside the visible shield you are protected from engagement and free to stage or manage your structure. The limitation aspect should be non-visible and extend past the protection field. Maybe 50% further, maybe some other amount, that is debatable. While in that space you can't lock others, activate boosts or light a cyno. The cyno restriction could be waved for those with the ability to enter the protective field, making it an offensive restriction only.

I'm sure there are edge-cases that I don't know about, but it just seems easier to deal with those directly, rather than try to come up with something new that does what force-fields do but in different ways. It's possible pilots may find better ways to exploit these new systems than they have under the current system. Not to mention, how do you know a structure is online when you aren't on grid with it? A force-field shows up on d-scan. That's pretty important to see in WH's at least.

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow

Syri Taneka
NOVA-CAINE
#506 - 2015-05-30 04:00:01 UTC
Darren Fox wrote:
I can only echo the last poster on this. Without some sort of forcefield mechanic, there is no "staging in space". Nowhere to keep a titan, safe-align a fleet etc. What mechanism/structure will ensure that gameplay is kept?


Why *should* that gameplay be kept?

Yeah, I'll admit, it's really nice to be able to bug out to an invulnerable hole in space where your enemies can't touch you - but it's horrifically broken.

Anything and everything not docked up should be vulnerable AT ALL TIMES.

You want to use your Titan? Unmoor it, bridge, then rope it back on to your Citadel and hope no one comes knocking in the meantime (or that your staging fleet is capable of dealing with said knockers).
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#507 - 2015-05-30 04:04:29 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:


Yeah, I'll admit, it's really nice to be able to bug out to an invulnerable hole in space where your enemies can't touch you - but it's horrifically broken.

Anything and everything not docked up should be vulnerable AT ALL TIMES.

You want to use your Titan? Unmoor it, bridge, then rope it back on to your Citadel and hope no one comes knocking in the meantime (or that your staging fleet is capable of dealing with said knockers).


What a great way to ensure that most Supercapital pilots unsubscribe and don't log in again! Which I guess is one answer to Supercapital proliferation...

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#508 - 2015-05-30 05:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Syri Taneka wrote:

Why *should* that gameplay be kept?

Yeah, I'll admit, it's really nice to be able to bug out to an invulnerable hole in space where your enemies can't touch you - but it's horrifically broken.

Anything and everything not docked up should be vulnerable AT ALL TIMES.

You want to use your Titan? Unmoor it, bridge, then rope it back on to your Citadel and hope no one comes knocking in the meantime (or that your staging fleet is capable of dealing with said knockers).


Let's look at this from the perspective where it is most needed, and therefore the best and only reason needed for a bubble-like mechanic to be kept - forward staging points.
To obtain this you had to first secure a moon from your enemies. Then you had to successfully anchor and online the tower. Once this is done you must keep constant vigil to insure you do not lose this very important objective. This is where players will be bridging/staging from of as they attack hostile space. Without this, you have no forward staging and are subject to have to base out of the nearest NPC/friendly station which can be several jumps away from your actual intended target. This means you actually have less points of contention between you and your enemies and therefore less interaction/content and a lot more time spent jumping.

To your "vulnerable at all times" comment. You realize a titan bridging is sending that fleet away correct? You do realize titans have died in the past because a player stayed behind and cynoed in an enemy fleet, yes? And that was with POS bubbles. Granted those titans kinda caused their own death save the one that got bumped out due to abuse of a mechanic and had it restored. But I digress, you now sit here infront of us and tell us that it should be a requirement that a titan bridge his fleet away while completely open to attack. I'm pretty sure you can see how stupid your comment sounded right about now. If you don't I'm sorry.



As far as the structure patch goes.
Moored ships should be cloaked to prevent free intel by a simple driveby and dscan. Active scouting will allow for enemies to gain the knowledge of what is there.
Ships should all have an invulnerability when unmooring/undocking as we have currently.
There should be a high PG/CPU module that can be attached to any and all structures which creates a forcefield exactly like the current POS bubble. Likely a small/medium/large version of the module which determines size and fitting requirements.
Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#509 - 2015-05-30 19:30:28 UTC
Eve is all about tradeoffs to get benefits. For the better part of the last decade super pilots have complained they couldn't dock. Well they still cant dock and thats for more than a few reasons ( station Size vs ship size, most of us saw what happened when CCP gave out free titans and let them undock in 6-C on sisi and how it made no sense to let these ships dock )

And now we have mooring, tradeoff being the intel that is given away by it. But it lets supers and their pilots effectively keep an asset safe for a period of time.

But some people are still caught up in this tradeoff, And i dont see why for a few obvious reasons:

- If you have ever dropped a super or been seen in one someone probably has you listed as a super pilot and on watch list, i have 3 dozen on mine who operate near my area just incase.
- if your a super pilot and they know it they can find you with locator agents easily as is
- Many corps and alliance have towers where supers are kept bookmarked on alts for observation of activity as is
- Areas where supers are produced are well documented, If you made one someone somewhere knows you did.


So accounting for all of that, whats the big deal if they can see where you can park it? They already have access to so much more information so this is hardly a crisis of "Free Intel".

My proposal is just to hide supers moored to Structures from D-Scan and to remove the "owned by information that appears when you show info on them. This means they can track where supers are the same way they are now, but they may not know whose super is whose. Which makes ambushing a specific pilot much more intel intensive and difficult.

plus if that really becomes an issue just give super invulnerability for 30 seconds after unmooring the ship, thats enough time to warp or jump for an inexperienced pilot, let alone a professional or experienced one.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

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Steven Hackett
Ehefkae
#510 - 2015-06-02 10:19:52 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
Darren Fox wrote:
I can only echo the last poster on this. Without some sort of forcefield mechanic, there is no "staging in space". Nowhere to keep a titan, safe-align a fleet etc. What mechanism/structure will ensure that gameplay is kept?


Why *should* that gameplay be kept?

Yeah, I'll admit, it's really nice to be able to bug out to an invulnerable hole in space where your enemies can't touch you - but it's horrifically broken.

Anything and everything not docked up should be vulnerable AT ALL TIMES.

You want to use your Titan? Unmoor it, bridge, then rope it back on to your Citadel and hope no one comes knocking in the meantime (or that your staging fleet is capable of dealing with said knockers).

Why stop there? Remove stations all together, you shouldn't have a place to be safe doing your gameplay either. You can store your stuff in anchored containers that can be shot.
Some of us doesn't use stations currently, please stop trying to ruin our gameplay while you yourself want to keep your gameplay safe.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#511 - 2015-06-06 02:53:25 UTC
As long as highsec is nice and safe.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

davet517
Raata Invicti
#512 - 2015-06-07 00:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
This isn't rocket science (pun intended) devs. When you're moored in a super, you're invulnerable. You can look around space, d-scan, and interact with the services and hangers of the structure to which the mooring is attached.

When you un-moor, you're invulnerable until you touch a module, or warp, within the "docking range" of the mooring. This will allow the super-pilot to align and warp off, jump out, or re-moor, all while invulnerable. If he's bridging, he's only vulnerable for the length of the bridge cycle, and can re-moor as soon as it ends.

It's essentially the same thing that we have today, with the slight drawback of being vulnerable for as long as it takes a bridge to cycle, and the plus of being able to use station services and hangers directly. You won't be able to orbit shields and shoot at folks and then jump back in, but that's a ***** move anyway.

I doubt that many super pilots are going to moor their ship and take off to do other things, just like they don't do it today, even though they technically can in a maintenance array. It just gives them a staging point in space that's equivalent to what they have now.

As for intel and all that. If a pilot is concerned, he can un-moor, safe-log-off, and he poofs, all while invulnerable. When he logs back in, he e-warps right back to within mooring range. I think super pilots are smart enough in general to check the current situation before logging back on. They might have to check to make sure that someone didn't grab their mooring spot while they're logged off.

Same functionality, slightly improved utility, different wrapper.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#513 - 2015-06-07 19:21:13 UTC
davet517 wrote:
This isn't rocket science (pun intended) devs. When you're moored in a super, you're invulnerable. You can look around space, d-scan, and interact with the services and hangers of the structure to which the mooring is attached.

When you un-moor, you're invulnerable until you touch a module, or warp, within the "docking range" of the mooring. This will allow the super-pilot to align and warp off, jump out, or re-moor, all while invulnerable. If he's bridging, he's only vulnerable for the length of the bridge cycle, and can re-moor as soon as it ends.

It's essentially the same thing that we have today, with the slight drawback of being vulnerable for as long as it takes a bridge to cycle, and the plus of being able to use station services and hangers directly. You won't be able to orbit shields and shoot at folks and then jump back in, but that's a ***** move anyway.

I doubt that many super pilots are going to moor their ship and take off to do other things, just like they don't do it today, even though they technically can in a maintenance array. It just gives them a staging point in space that's equivalent to what they have now.

As for intel and all that. If a pilot is concerned, he can un-moor, safe-log-off, and he poofs, all while invulnerable. When he logs back in, he e-warps right back to within mooring range. I think super pilots are smart enough in general to check the current situation before logging back on. They might have to check to make sure that someone didn't grab their mooring spot while they're logged off.

Same functionality, slightly improved utility, different wrapper.


What you suggest is pretty much the bare basic/minimum that should be implemented based on current gameplay.

Been around since the beginning.

Kasumi Gotto
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#514 - 2015-06-09 20:58:56 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Having (super)capitals visible from space, even if invulnerable to direct assault, is going a huge intelligence boost to opposing forces.


Make a certain radius around the structure invisible to scanning like the recons have right now. You need probes or someone to go there and scout it.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:


  • Having (super)capitals traceable in such a manner could allow third parties to ambush (super)capital pilots as soon as they remove moorings to destroy the ships before they can escape.

Define 'escape'. Couldn't they just jump as soon as they untether themselves? It would come down to timing I guess. I am not sure how much of a practical problem this really is.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Having a fixed mooring capability on those structures will create problems if the structure mooring capability is full when another (super)capital pilot tries to use it under pressure.
  • [/list]


    Tough break? This seems more of a logistical problem for the group trying to use the structure. Go someplace else I guess would be the solution. I'd need more detail for how the mooring feature would work though. Such as: If you log off while you are tied to the structure, can you log off and technically still be 'attached' to the structure? If so, can there be an interface to tell you who is moored so you know how many can be parked there? Seems something like that would settle the issue.
    DrysonBennington
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #515 - 2015-06-13 23:24:20 UTC  |  Edited by: DrysonBennington
    There has to be a new skill involved with Mooring. The better the skill or skill set the faster the ship is moored and unmoored.

    I would have to say that a set number of capitals for each station should be based on volume. The max volume for a mooring system would 155 million cu/m or the size of an Avatar. Anything larger would create its own gravitational problems with the structure.

    Each station would have varying degree of capital volume storage that could be increased by adding Mooring Modules to the structures. Each Mooring Module would provide 50 million units of Moored Volume. Four modules could added to a structure for a total of 200 million units of Moored Volume that would allow for a single Titan to be moored alone or up to ten Moros.

    Mooring would also require more fuel to be used in order to maintain the orbit of the station or structure as well as extending the stations shields around the capital. If the fuel runs out all capitals are decoupled and left to drift.

    While the capital is mooring it should also be considered active and able to return fire and be fired upon. After mooring is complete the weapons systems are taken offline and any fighters or bombers in open space are disconnected and left adrift.

    Some excellent Mooring effects are also going to have be designed. Tractor beams and fuel lines are a must. Just as the gantries extending and retracting into the station are also must when the capital is moored.
    Nasar Vyron
    S0utherN Comfort
    Test Alliance Please Ignore
    #516 - 2015-06-14 06:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
    DrysonBennington wrote:
    There has to be a new skill involved with Mooring. The better the skill or skill set the faster the ship is moored and unmoored.

    No for so many reasons... Just pretend the system is automated by structure and you play no role in the matter.

    DrysonBennington wrote:
    I would have to say that a set number of capitals for each station should be based on volume. The max volume for a mooring system would 155 million cu/m or the size of an Avatar. Anything larger would create its own gravitational problems with the structure.

    Each station would have varying degree of capital volume storage that could be increased by adding Mooring Modules to the structures. Each Mooring Module would provide 50 million units of Moored Volume. Four modules could added to a structure for a total of 200 million units of Moored Volume that would allow for a single Titan to be moored alone or up to ten Moros.

    You realize, of course, that mooring occurs outside a structure not within. So you're literally wanting to applying a volume restriction to the space outside of the structure...

    DrysonBennington wrote:
    Mooring would also require more fuel to be used in order to maintain the orbit of the station or structure as well as extending the stations shields around the capital. If the fuel runs out all capitals are decoupled and left to drift.

    Variable fuel consumption rates sucked. They should never be brought back. Oh somebody onlined the reprocessing array last night and never turned it off? Whelp had fuel to last till I was home from work, now it's offline.

    DrysonBennington wrote:
    While the capital is mooring it should also be considered active and able to return fire and be fired upon. After mooring is complete the weapons systems are taken offline and any fighters or bombers in open space are disconnected and left adrift.

    Mooring = docking on the outside of a structure, it should be instant. No possibility of haha you got doomsdayed in the minute it took you to finish mooring/unmooring.
    AnzacPaul
    Tactically Challenged
    Tactical Supremacy
    #517 - 2015-06-14 07:27:23 UTC
    Just let supers dock. I can't see any reason not to let them nowadays.
    Isoroku Yasukawa
    Nulli-Secundus
    #518 - 2015-06-14 10:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Isoroku Yasukawa
    @Ytterbium: How do you envisage supercap movement taking place with the new structures?

    Right now it is simply beyond a nightmare if you are outside a large power block. Garage door cyno removal - understood the reasons, but where is the quid pro quo?
    lord xavier
    Rubbed Out
    PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
    #519 - 2015-06-19 18:39:22 UTC
    What about buying/selling super carriers? What is to stop someone from uncloaking and pointing or stealing it when the other pilot hops out? How would you propose the idea of doing a transaction for a super carrier? Without a proper and "safe" way to buy or sell a supercarrier/titan, you are looking at local builds inside alliances for them. Which, everyone not owning sov or do not live in Sov space (Npc null/Lowsec) would be completely out of the picture for ever buying a super of some kind.
    Asuka Solo
    I N E X T R E M I S
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #520 - 2015-06-20 15:42:32 UTC
    lord xavier wrote:
    What about buying/selling super carriers? What is to stop someone from uncloaking and pointing or stealing it when the other pilot hops out? How would you propose the idea of doing a transaction for a super carrier? Without a proper and "safe" way to buy or sell a supercarrier/titan, you are looking at local builds inside alliances for them. Which, everyone not owning sov or do not live in Sov space (Npc null/Lowsec) would be completely out of the picture for ever buying a super of some kind.


    True this.

    CCP should just forget about this mooring concept and forget about fixing the potential intelligence / all knowing local / dscan problem(s) it would introduce.

    Just allow supers to dock as per the existing sub cap / capital docking mechanism.

    Solves the transaction concerns by putting supers on the market and nips the intel issue in the bud before its even introduced.

    Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!