Player Features and Ideas Discussion

As missiles are getting more buffs and love I am worried that other weapon systems are getting more and more outdated.

Let's do quick comparison about weapon systems(remind me if anything is false or if something important is missing):

[Drones]
+ Dynamic damage type
+ Tracking
+ Don't require ship capacitor
+ Don't require ship targeting
+ Drone unit individual tracking
+ Does not require fitting
+ 'EWAR immune'
- Vulnerable to smartbombs
- Drone travel time
- Destroyable
* Works against small and other subcapital ships

[Laser turrets]
+ Do bunch of damage (scorch is magic at mid-range)
+ Nice range
+ Ammunition cost very little or not at all
- **** when when trying to hit something up close
- Stuck to EM/thermal damage type, that makes the weapon system good against some targets but unusable in some situations
- Suck loads of cap
- Hard to fit, huge PG requirements
- Vulnerable to energy neut, tracking disruption, ecm, dampening...

[ Missiles]
+ Dynamic damage
+ Don't require cap to fire
+ Don't require ship tracking
+ Hit far
+ With auto-targeting missile immune to all EWAR
+ Burst DPS launchers with great application
+ careful piloting can stack volleys
* Counterable with by other means: defender missiles(does anyone use them?), smartbombs
- More vulnerable to target sig radius than other weapon systems (AEGIS will counter this)
- More vulnerable to target speed than other weapon systems (AEGIS will counter this)
- Slow reload
- Not instant hit (not as bad it used to be)
* Costly ammunition (explained by demand good to economy)

[Projectile turrets]
+ Semi-dynamic damage
+ Hella alpha on arty
+ Don't require cap to fire
+ ACs easy to fit
+ Tracking bonused ammo
* Affected by most EWAR: tracking disruption, ecm, dampening
- Low overall top out on damage
- Fight almost exclusively in falloff
- Artillery is difficult to fit right

[Hybrid turrets]
+ Overall nice weapon system
+ highest paper DPS per unbonused turret
- Vulnerable to energy neut, tracking disruption, ecm, dampening
- Medium expensive ammo
= Okay fitting, not particularly tight on most ships
- Require cap
- **** hitting targets up close
- Stuck to kinetic and thermal damage

Missiles have got much needed love but now it is starting to feel that weapon system that is already working well gets the last pieces needed to become the superior weapon system.

What we can see is that both drones and missiles are nearly immune to countering. Almost every turret system is vulnerable to many/all EWAR including need to be able to track the target. As missile sig&speed hitting problems are tackles both drones and missiles can hit fast moving targets.

Things that need to change:
1) All turret ships need optional fitting choice of either drones or/and missiles as turrets have limited tracking are crap against any EWAR.
2) * There should not exist any ship that uses either missiles or drones as main weapon system. You are tackling with Ishtar now and next it will be other drone ship that is above all.. Next will become the missile ships as they will soon be the superior weapon.
3) Projectile turrets should not have dynamic damage as many(or all?) minmatar ships have utility drones and missiles for dynamic damage type
4) Projectile turrets should take very little cap to fire that they were not completely cap drain immune weapon system
5) As it now bigger ships have rapid smaller missile versions and soon the modules that buff the variables to hit small targets frigates will soon need more than speed or sig radius adjustments to be able to survive against flown big ships.

CCP already realizes the problem in balance between drones&missiles vs turret EWAR vulnerability but that is not the only issue. There are other problems between the weapon systems as well that have to be settled. As it is relation to ship designs such as Ishtar and other ships that use drones and as missiles get buffed the problem will spread to missile ships.

I love lasers but for me currently there simply is no reason to fly laser ships and the reasons get less and less. Please do not forget the balance!

So, a few additions, and a few corrections to the pro/con list. My changes are in BOLD and additions are in BOLD ITALICS. As an aside, I have not yet looked at your proposal, just the pro/con analysis, which seems to omit blasters in hybrids and has some stuff I can't agree with in projectiles.

Because missiles have lagged far behind the other weapon systems in regards to balancing. Most of the changes to missiles in the last few years have been nerfs where most other weapon systems have been getting buffed.

That is true and I am happy that the missiles have gained buff as those have been desired. Though now they are becoming the only weapon of choice as they start hit anything, are EWAR immune and have dynamic damage type. AKA weapon system that fits almost any situation.

Don't forget that the life for frigates and cruisers is getting more painful too by this change as ship with rapid launchers and right modules can probably nuke them no matter what speed or sig radius they have.

1. Seems I stand corrected thank you.
2. Not sure if you understand me correctly. This stands that every ship should basically have either limited drones OR optional missile slot
3. I understand that such change can feel outrageous but how the weapons are implemented the balance issues will exist and things to remain broken. When they are done with drone ships next will be missile ships..
4. You just described how it is for amarr fleet. Most amarr ships have very limited drones and no missiles. Of course if this would be done to counter low DPS projectile base damage would have to be adjusted. Now the lower base damage is explained by that you can choose the resistance hole you are shooting.
5. That may become real problem in the upcoming update with the new modules

The addition of missile application mods is long overdue.
I wouldnt draw any conclusions before the raw stats are released.

This stance seems extremely out of line with current realities. We have 2 examples of problematic drone usage across a couple dozen ships that use them as a main weapon. The ishtar being an issue in no way supports the conclusion that drone primary ships are an issue. It actually argues against that conclusion since it stands out so strongly even among it's drone cruiser peers.

If anything the whole issue could likely be solved by a cruiser drone band nerf to anything with 125mbit.

Missiles were almost all buffed. Only heavies were nerfed and lights were buffed again and then nerfed a little again. Its probably projectiles that have seen the least change, with only a slight buff to range that was to rebalance the TE nerf.

The big kick to missiles most likely came from the buffs to cruisers and the shift to the speed meta. I dont think they are behind other weapons, I think perhaps we've made things too mobile which hurts missiles (which use absolute speed) more than turrets (which use relative velocity).

1) You can fit missiles so that virtually no matter what the smaller ship does you will always hit. With turrets its a race. If the small ships get to orbit / close enough to start circle that your tracking won't stay up. So with missiles you can with correct fit "always hit" where with turrets you can need at least 2 webs to hit.
2) Not I-WIN button but you can still shoot in situation turret boat is incapable to do any damage which is a big thing. I never said it was I-WIN button.

Fine Ishtar is a special case in that regard yes. But drones perform still significantly well being able to hit both big and small targets while kiting without targeting with dynamic damage type. For example small t1 drone ships burst damage very well. Making them very versatile in comparison to any turret boat.