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Missile idea

Author
James Zimmer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-06-10 06:23:57 UTC
Ok, my bad. I saw 50 and 100 and immediately thought percentages.
Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2015-06-10 08:30:12 UTC
James Zimmer wrote:
Ok, my bad. I saw 50 and 100 and immediately thought percentages.


no worries :D
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#23 - 2015-06-10 12:29:59 UTC
Still another mechanic to balance. Still a stealth nerf to anything except straight buffer tank.

As for people not understanding your idea, as the OP you are responsible for communicating clearly. The 4th ghost hitpoint comments are accurate summations of the idea stated differently from your preferred verbiage. So telling someone these are wrong is bad.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Leto Aramaus
Frog Team Four
Of Essence
#24 - 2015-06-10 12:46:18 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Still another mechanic to balance. Still a stealth nerf to anything except straight buffer tank.

As for people not understanding your idea, as the OP you are responsible for communicating clearly. The 4th ghost hitpoint comments are accurate summations of the idea stated differently from your preferred verbiage. So telling someone these are wrong is bad.


I also thought of another way in which he might mean this to work... a flat percentage penalty to active repairs.

I gave the example of adding a 4th type of HP, that would require "repping through" before ACTUAL HP was repaired.

But OP could also mean that:

Upon one of these new missiles hitting a target: for X seconds/minutes repairs on that target are reduced by X%. Whether or not this percent stacks with more successful missile hits, or is flat and never increases, I don't know.

OP, is this what you meant?
Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-06-10 17:09:11 UTC
Leto Aramaus wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Still another mechanic to balance. Still a stealth nerf to anything except straight buffer tank.

As for people not understanding your idea, as the OP you are responsible for communicating clearly. The 4th ghost hitpoint comments are accurate summations of the idea stated differently from your preferred verbiage. So telling someone these are wrong is bad.


I also thought of another way in which he might mean this to work... a flat percentage penalty to active repairs.

I gave the example of adding a 4th type of HP, that would require "repping through" before ACTUAL HP was repaired.

But OP could also mean that:

Upon one of these new missiles hitting a target: for X seconds/minutes repairs on that target are reduced by X%. Whether or not this percent stacks with more successful missile hits, or is flat and never increases, I don't know.

OP, is this what you meant?


I would not like seeing anything in flat percentages because that would make smaller ships suffer too much unless the amount of disruption was calculated similar to how a smaller faster ship can take less damage from a larger missile due to factors such as it own speed. there never should be any stacking effect, so the disruption effect stays the same it does not go higher or lower then the intended balance. Another missile hitting only renews the effect but only after the current effect has ended. The final product would also have current ship resistances play against the effect. To do that would simply use current shield or armor skills into the calculation. i know this sounds like a lot but in current pvp damage and resistance and ecm etc... are already working in the background.

My disruption missiles will help against the impending drifter invasion !
Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2015-06-10 17:26:40 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Still another mechanic to balance. Still a stealth nerf to anything except straight buffer tank.

As for people not understanding your idea, as the OP you are responsible for communicating clearly. The 4th ghost hitpoint comments are accurate summations of the idea stated differently from your preferred verbiage. So telling someone these are wrong is bad.


Well what can i say some change / mechanic balance is always inevitable, i don't think anyone could honestly say missiles are in a good state outside of pve and be honest with themselves.

If it were a ghost hit-point i would have asked that there should be some pre-repair before the actual repair began which is something i didn't say. there is still a repair but it is just less then the full amount. It is good that buffer tank is immune something should have an advantage that way. Well say you have a ship fit well for tanking together with a logistic ship fit well for repair, how do missiles in their current state touch either ship ?

I think it's easy for people read / hear one thing and interpret another thing happens all the time, especially when there are vested interests involved, but I'm not going to take responsibility for that.
Iain Cariaba
#27 - 2015-06-10 17:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Not that Forumguy wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
this comment is close to right, but leaves out a very important factor.

Fleets.


Lets say a small fleet of 4 people with 2 logis is able to burn down a fleet of 10, thanks to logi.
Now, take 2 of those 10 in the losing fleet and give them these missiles.
All the sudden, logi and active tank becomes useless.


This is basically a nerf to all forms of active rep, which would be a very unneeded buff to hull and armor buffer tanks.



These objections are an over-reaction, its simply less repair then what would have been uninterrupted, no missile will completely abolish repair altogether i never said that or suggested it.

Not that Forumguy wrote:
And yes it is an over-reaction when people choose to argue a point with a situation that would never see the light of day.

Serious question here: How long, exactly, have you been playing EvE?

Do you understand how fights between major and minor powers work? Oh, your idea will reduce reps by 50hp, that's all well and good, until you realize that people in this game get together in fleets of hundreds. There's already enough crying about how Ishtars are overpowered, now imagine a fleet of 100 Ishtars capable of making enemy logi rep through 5000hp of damage per volley before repairing the damage done by the drones. Last fight we had in Querious, I was part of a fleet that had over 200 Ishtars in it. 200 Ishtars times your 50hp per missile rep reduction, and yes, we could have easily fit a launcher onto our Ishtars.

The only way to prevent the above from happening would be to make it totally non-stacking, which makes it totally useless.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-06-10 17:33:37 UTC
Not that Forumguy wrote:
Well say you have a ship fit well for tanking together with a logistic ship fit well for repair, how do missiles in their current state touch either ship ?


The same way turret ship does but a few seconds later because of the delay between missile launch and impact. Beside that, it's pretty much the same, shoot until it dies or warp off.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#29 - 2015-06-10 17:37:16 UTC
They touch the logi by breaking the tank on the logi. Like every other weapon system, and with a longer range than the vast majority of their weapon size, so you can theoretically stack far more DPS ships hitting one logi that turrets can.

Also, they have selectable damage, predictable application, application irrelevant to your current motion, are capless, can be coordinated into truely heinous alpha strikes if everyone is flying the same thing and doing it right, have launchers with ridiculously good application for their class and frightening burst DPS when heated (RMLs) and so on. That they tend towards mediocre application and DPS (still beating the crap out of projectiles) is called balance. No, they aren't dominant. No, they aren't what they used to be. No, missiles aren't particularly competative in fleets or loosely coordinated small gangs. Yes, they can be made scary powerful and viable in well comped and flown small gangs and are a good choice in certain kinds of solo.

That the current kiting meta does not favor missiles does not inherently mean they need a massive buff or more single purpose mechanics. Some launchers and hulls need fixed, primarily torpedos and heavies, and the SBs that make torpedos so hard to balance need to be iterated on at the same time they fix torpedos.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2015-06-10 19:13:34 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
this comment is close to right, but leaves out a very important factor.

Fleets.


Lets say a small fleet of 4 people with 2 logis is able to burn down a fleet of 10, thanks to logi.
Now, take 2 of those 10 in the losing fleet and give them these missiles.
All the sudden, logi and active tank becomes useless.


This is basically a nerf to all forms of active rep, which would be a very unneeded buff to hull and armor buffer tanks.



These objections are an over-reaction, its simply less repair then what would have been uninterrupted, no missile will completely abolish repair altogether i never said that or suggested it.

Not that Forumguy wrote:
And yes it is an over-reaction when people choose to argue a point with a situation that would never see the light of day.

Serious question here: How long, exactly, have you been playing EvE?

Do you understand how fights between major and minor powers work? Oh, your idea will reduce reps by 50hp, that's all well and good, until you realize that people in this game get together in fleets of hundreds. There's already enough crying about how Ishtars are overpowered, now imagine a fleet of 100 Ishtars capable of making enemy logi rep through 5000hp of damage per volley before repairing the damage done by the drones. Last fight we had in Querious, I was part of a fleet that had over 200 Ishtars in it. 200 Ishtars times your 50hp per missile rep reduction, and yes, we could have easily fit a launcher onto our Ishtars.

The only way to prevent the above from happening would be to make it totally non-stacking, which makes it totally useless.


you could have diminishing amounts per player missile but i would prefer no stacking at all, but no it would not be useless because it does its missile damage type for example thermal and some disruption, so you are able to add some damage while the rep is lower, but without totally diminishing the repair altogether, it adds something interesting to using missiles without being over the top.
Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2015-06-10 19:18:07 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
They touch the logi by breaking the tank on the logi. Like every other weapon system, and with a longer range than the vast majority of their weapon size, so you can theoretically stack far more DPS ships hitting one logi that turrets can.

Also, they have selectable damage, predictable application, application irrelevant to your current motion, are capless, can be coordinated into truely heinous alpha strikes if everyone is flying the same thing and doing it right, have launchers with ridiculously good application for their class and frightening burst DPS when heated (RMLs) and so on. That they tend towards mediocre application and DPS (still beating the crap out of projectiles) is called balance. No, they aren't dominant. No, they aren't what they used to be. No, missiles aren't particularly competative in fleets or loosely coordinated small gangs. Yes, they can be made scary powerful and viable in well comped and flown small gangs and are a good choice in certain kinds of solo.

That the current kiting meta does not favor missiles does not inherently mean they need a massive buff or more single purpose mechanics. Some launchers and hulls need fixed, primarily torpedos and heavies, and the SBs that make torpedos so hard to balance need to be iterated on at the same time they fix torpedos.


Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-06-10 19:20:00 UTC
Not that Forumguy wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
They touch the logi by breaking the tank on the logi. Like every other weapon system, and with a longer range than the vast majority of their weapon size, so you can theoretically stack far more DPS ships hitting one logi that turrets can.

Also, they have selectable damage, predictable application, application irrelevant to your current motion, are capless, can be coordinated into truely heinous alpha strikes if everyone is flying the same thing and doing it right, have launchers with ridiculously good application for their class and frightening burst DPS when heated (RMLs) and so on. That they tend towards mediocre application and DPS (still beating the crap out of projectiles) is called balance. No, they aren't dominant. No, they aren't what they used to be. No, missiles aren't particularly competative in fleets or loosely coordinated small gangs. Yes, they can be made scary powerful and viable in well comped and flown small gangs and are a good choice in certain kinds of solo.

That the current kiting meta does not favor missiles does not inherently mean they need a massive buff or more single purpose mechanics. Some launchers and hulls need fixed, primarily torpedos and heavies, and the SBs that make torpedos so hard to balance need to be iterated on at the same time they fix torpedos.


Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.


Or I could just apply that damage directly instead of trying to counter rep and kill my target faster...
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#33 - 2015-06-10 19:45:03 UTC
Not that Forumguy wrote:

Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.

Missiles are probably the best weapon system to tack something like this onto. Conceded.
Now, please give evidence that such a system existing at all is good for eve.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2015-06-10 20:39:53 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:

Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.

Missiles are probably the best weapon system to tack something like this onto. Conceded.
Now, please give evidence that such a system existing at all is good for eve.


Well that's not an entirely fair question, to be able to provide that evidence i would have to understand the math and code and every possible scenario, exact numbers etc. simply put i don't have the spreadsheet. but i could put to you, provide evidence that such a system existing at all isn't good for eve.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2015-06-10 20:51:55 UTC
Not that Forumguy wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:

Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.

Missiles are probably the best weapon system to tack something like this onto. Conceded.
Now, please give evidence that such a system existing at all is good for eve.


Well that's not an entirely fair question, to be able to provide that evidence i would have to understand the math and code and every possible scenario, exact numbers etc. simply put i don't have the spreadsheet. but i could put to you, provide evidence that such a system existing at all isn't good for eve.


The niche use is useless when you could be really applying those damage. All it does is slow down kills for missile ships who already have to wait for their damage to apply.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#36 - 2015-06-10 21:14:59 UTC
Not that Forumguy wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:

Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.

Missiles are probably the best weapon system to tack something like this onto. Conceded.
Now, please give evidence that such a system existing at all is good for eve.


Well that's not an entirely fair question, to be able to provide that evidence i would have to understand the math and code and every possible scenario, exact numbers etc. simply put i don't have the spreadsheet. but i could put to you, provide evidence that such a system existing at all isn't good for eve.


If you cannot provide evidence that a change is good, then you should not post a proposal of a change, or should drop it when counter arguments to the change emerge which you cannot surmount.

If there is no increase in DPS from this, it is a niche use weapon which will likely not see much use (see the state of FOF missiles) for a large investment in coding, an extra variable on all ships, and another non-intuitive mechanic, as well as tipping the scales against active tanks and passive regen tanks of every sort because such a weapon exists but is not used. Great use of resources, and way to make eve a tough but learnable game. Not.

If there is an increarse in DPS from this, it is still a large investement in coding, an extra variable on all ships, and a non-intuitive mechanic, for a weapon which forces people to try to track ANOTHER invisible value (like signature radius) and compensate for that value when deciding when and how much to rep someone or light their local tank for. Wooo. Sounds awesomely balanced

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2015-06-11 18:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Not that Forumguy
James Baboli wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:

Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.

Missiles are probably the best weapon system to tack something like this onto. Conceded.
Now, please give evidence that such a system existing at all is good for eve.


Well that's not an entirely fair question, to be able to provide that evidence i would have to understand the math and code and every possible scenario, exact numbers etc. simply put i don't have the spreadsheet. but i could put to you, provide evidence that such a system existing at all isn't good for eve.


If you cannot provide evidence that a change is good, then you should not post a proposal of a change, or should drop it when counter arguments to the change emerge which you cannot surmount.

If there is no increase in DPS from this, it is a niche use weapon which will likely not see much use (see the state of FOF missiles) for a large investment in coding, an extra variable on all ships, and another non-intuitive mechanic, as well as tipping the scales against active tanks and passive regen tanks of every sort because such a weapon exists but is not used. Great use of resources, and way to make eve a tough but learnable game. Not.

If there is an increarse in DPS from this, it is still a large investement in coding, an extra variable on all ships, and a non-intuitive mechanic, for a weapon which forces people to try to track ANOTHER invisible value (like signature radius) and compensate for that value when deciding when and how much to rep someone or light their local tank for. Wooo. Sounds awesomely balanced


Well how much damage does ECM do ? it is still used, i think there would be a lot of coding to complete for even things we think are basic, well do you track all these variables during a fleet fight / or squad fight, or do you fit your ship the best way you can by training your skills the highest they can be, then do the best you can in the situation. And at the end of the day game balancing passes sort out any balance issue. Having unpredictable things you can't track happening is a good thing for eve in pvp area.
Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-06-11 18:31:33 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:

Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.

Missiles are probably the best weapon system to tack something like this onto. Conceded.
Now, please give evidence that such a system existing at all is good for eve.


Well that's not an entirely fair question, to be able to provide that evidence i would have to understand the math and code and every possible scenario, exact numbers etc. simply put i don't have the spreadsheet. but i could put to you, provide evidence that such a system existing at all isn't good for eve.


The niche use is useless when you could be really applying those damage. All it does is slow down kills for missile ships who already have to wait for their damage to apply.


You could argue that the damage may be a little less because of an added function, if you look at laser ammo it has various attributes such as range and damage. well i don't think it is niche at all since many ships have high resistances and repair and logistics as well. plus the reduction in damage is countered by the drop in repair (when the effect happens during a rep cycle) so what you will see is a spike in damage on your target (when the effect happens during a rep cycle) so it gives a chance for the missile to punch a hole in the defenses, some of the time.
Not that Forumguy
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2015-06-11 18:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Not that Forumguy
Not that Forumguy wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Not that Forumguy wrote:

Your point is valid you could do that, but what weapon is yet fit for that purpose, i think missiles have the opportunity and function for the effect.

Missiles are probably the best weapon system to tack something like this onto. Conceded.
Now, please give evidence that such a system existing at all is good for eve.


Well that's not an entirely fair question, to be able to provide that evidence i would have to understand the math and code and every possible scenario, exact numbers etc. simply put i don't have the spreadsheet. but i could put to you, provide evidence that such a system existing at all isn't good for eve.


If you cannot provide evidence that a change is good, then you should not post a proposal of a change, or should drop it when counter arguments to the change emerge which you cannot surmount.

If there is no increase in DPS from this, it is a niche use weapon which will likely not see much use (see the state of FOF missiles) for a large investment in coding, an extra variable on all ships, and another non-intuitive mechanic, as well as tipping the scales against active tanks and passive regen tanks of every sort because such a weapon exists but is not used. Great use of resources, and way to make eve a tough but learnable game. Not.

If there is an increarse in DPS from this, it is still a large investement in coding, an extra variable on all ships, and a non-intuitive mechanic, for a weapon which forces people to try to track ANOTHER invisible value (like signature radius) and compensate for that value when deciding when and how much to rep someone or light their local tank for. Wooo. Sounds awesomely balanced


A bit silly, so my only recourse is to get a job at ccp, to read the spreadsheet and prove it, in which case ill develop my missile concept into the game anyway :P

Well how much damage does ECM do ? it is still used, i think there would be a lot of coding to complete for even things we think are basic, well do you track all these variables during a fleet fight / or squad fight, or do you fit your ship the best way you can by training your skills the highest they can be, then do the best you can in the situation. And at the end of the day game balancing passes sort out any balance issue. Having unpredictable things you can't track is a good thing for eve in the pvp side of things
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#40 - 2015-06-11 18:53:17 UTC
Not that Forumguy wrote:


Well how much damage does ECM do ? it is still used, i think there would be a lot of coding to complete for even things we think are basic, well do you track all these variables during a fleet fight / or squad fight, or do you fit your ship the best way you can by training your skills the highest they can be, then do the best you can in the situation. And at the end of the day game balancing passes sort out any balance issue. Having unpredictable things you can't track happening is a good thing for eve in pvp area.


ECM is EWAR. It is purely EWAR. Just like neuts are purely EWAR, paints are purely EWAR, webs are purely EWAR, etc. DPS is DPS. The two are seperate types of things. EWAR and remote reps are designed to be a force multiplier, while DPS is the force you are multiplying.

Also, you think that more variables you can't track, just estimate is good purely for the sake of more incalculable variables? That sounds simplistic to me. More variables is better only when those variables are part of a mechanic which coherently serves one of two greater purposes, Balance or Immersion. I do not see this improving balance, and it breaks immersion to me.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

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