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[Proposal] Mild nerf to T3 Strategic Cruisers
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#21 - 2011-12-28 11:50:52 UTC
This idea is so bad, I don't even know where to start.

Don't mess with T3s, except to nerf their gang links. Alternately, buff the command ship's links so that they return to their proper role in the fleet.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Aineko Macx
#22 - 2011-12-28 13:41:58 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
This idea is so bad, I don't even know where to start.

You should at least try to use like arguments, because right now you only you sound like every other whiny carebear that is afraid their shiny is getting nerfed.

Quote:
Don't mess with T3s, except to nerf their gang links. Alternately, buff the command ship's links so that they return to their proper role in the fleet.

Fleet CS with T1 ganglinks already gave badass bonuses. T3's with T2 ganglinks are over the top.

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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#23 - 2011-12-28 14:08:07 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
This idea is so bad, I don't even know where to start.

You should at least try to use like arguments, because right now you only you sound like every other whiny carebear that is afraid their shiny is getting nerfed.

Quote:
Don't mess with T3s, except to nerf their gang links. Alternately, buff the command ship's links so that they return to their proper role in the fleet.

Fleet CS with T1 ganglinks already gave badass bonuses. T3's with T2 ganglinks are over the top.

Calling floppie a carebear Lol priceless.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-12-28 14:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vertisce Soritenshi
Good god...

Let me get this right. You want to nerf T3 ships because they give more bonuses than other ships out there that are a third or even a quarter of the cost?

A properly fitted T3 costs 600 mil or more last time I checked. They give the bonuses they do because they cost a lot. They cost a lot because of what it takes to manufacture them. Now if there is a balancing issue between the T3 ships I am all for fixing that...but these are "T3" ships. They are the best of the best right now. They should be slightly better than a T2 BC but not better than a T2 BS. They should not be worse than T2 BC's and lower. Simple as that.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2011-12-28 14:28:23 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Trying to balance ships around the brain-dead NPCs we have instead of trying to balance the NPCs against the way ships actually work in PvP is the fundamental error here.


So the fact that the Tengu receives range, damage and rate of fire bonuses when no other missile-based ship in the game gets those bonuses, is no cause for concern?


Not especially, when turret ships also have range, damage and RoF bonuses. If it's OK for a Zealot to have those 3 bonuses, then you need to really go into more detail as to why this is a bad thing.

And... Doesn't the Cerberus get a range, RoF and damage bonus? The EVE Wiki thinks it does:

Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage and 10% bonus to Missile velocity per levelHeavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile flight time and 5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cerberus

(Depending on exactly what you want to count as a "bonus", the CNR gets a damage bonus in the form of an extra launcher slot, on top of its listed range bonus and RoF bonus.)

In short your objection is not only factually incorrect, it's also nonsensical. Bonuses on their own are meaningless; you have to look at the context of the ships stats as well.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#26 - 2011-12-28 15:04:24 UTC
Leave my Tengu alone and bring other T3's up to the same level.

Instead of crying and moaning for nerfs you guys should spend your useless time posting stuff to improve other T3's and "mission boats".

...
Aineko Macx
#27 - 2011-12-28 15:19:24 UTC
Lol seems like I really struck a nerve there. Everyone knows the Tengu is OP. ******* hipocrits.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#28 - 2011-12-28 15:33:46 UTC
The tengu needs a good hard nerf. It has high dps, long range and heavy tank. The other t3's (barring the legion) get to pick 2 of 3. The legion cannot have high dps but gets the other two just fine.What? I for one rarely use t3's in pvp (not counting off grid boosting). The more specialized recons, BC's and pirate faction cruisers are more effective at a lower cost. About the only role they do better than anything else is the probing cruiser class marauder for exploration. But it has no t2 equivalent in that role to compete with. The only thing on them that needs an across the board nerf is the ganglink subsystem. Either CS's need to be buffed to 5% per lvl or t3's need to be nerfed to 3% per lvl. Doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me which is done.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#29 - 2011-12-28 16:19:15 UTC
Agreed that CS should get the +5% for warfare links while T3s should only get +3%. T3 boosters get plenty of other compensating advantages.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#30 - 2011-12-28 17:44:18 UTC
T3s will be nerfed by the introduction of T4s. Big smile

We need more T3s available... from frigates on up to Battleships.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2011-12-28 17:57:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Aineko Macx wrote:

Without sticking on complex mods on the ship T3's don't get to 2 bil. In fact, the cookie cutter alliance Tengu/Loki fit is 600-700 mil. That is less than a Mach or a Carrier and still Tengus have way less weaknesses than those (yeah I know, different ship classes, but when people bring arguments like "it costs so much, it should pwn" it has to be mentioned).

I did say 500m-2b :P Most solo T3 pilots will stick on some seriously expensive mods, T2 rigs etc. and those are the T3s that really pwn. As for "it costs so much, it should pwn", a carrier plays a different role, and in most fights is considerably more useful than another T3.

Funny you should bring up pirate faction battleships though, would you fight a Bhaalgorn in a Tengu? Or a Machariel for that matter? Proteus vs. Vindicator?

Anyway, I'll admit a fleet of 600-700m ISK T3s are pretty awesome, especially with logistics support. But then again, if you kill one or two of them even sacrificing a scorpion and a fleet of whelp canes would still leave you ISK positive at the end. And if you can't kill them, because you don't have any ewar, logistics or webbers, then you probably wouldn't have won even if they weren't flying T3s.

From someone who killed 1 Loki and sent the other off the field with a 'Cane and a friend in a Drake:
Keep the changes small. Lengthening the training time of subsystems would be a good idea if something was needed to compensate for any future removal of the exploding-T3 skillpoint loss, and the Tengu might be able to do with its missle subsystems rejiggered (making the missile subsystems into a choice between the Accelerated Ejection Bay for high-to-facemelt-DPS HAM fittings a la the Legion counterpart or the Rifling Launcher Pattern for long-range, moderately-high-but-not-uber DPS HML fittings would be a good idea IMO.) Don't go all "nerfbat-into-ground" on them as a class though, as the Legion would become useless and the Loki and Proteus would become what the Legion is now.

As to the T3 vs. pirate faction BS issue...you'd be surprised: for instance, a webbing Loki could kite a Vindi to death with ease (how is a blaster Vindicator supposed to hit out to Loki bonused web range?), and even with 800mm ACs, the Mach still might have trouble with a T3 under its guns. Also, the only thing that keeps the Tengu from kiting everything under the sun is the lack of a long enough point; if something else (maybe a drag or stop bubble cleverly placed by said Tengu pilot?) is keeping the Bhaal from warping off in the Bhaal vs. Tengu case...that's one dead Bhaalgorn!

Also, more and more varied uses for Sleeper loot/salvage would be a Good Thing IMO. T3 ammo might be an interesting concept to ponder...
Aineko Macx
#32 - 2011-12-28 18:13:49 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
We need more T3s available... from frigates on up to Battleships.

IMO T3's are a result of CCPs inability to find roles for new ships. So they went "hey lets make modular ships that do it all, just better", vandalizing the delicate inter ship class balance. If strategic cruisers are any indication of how the other T3s are gonna be, eve would be better off without them.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#33 - 2011-12-28 19:42:13 UTC
I had a 650 dps arty loki with the web subsystem. It was pretty epic in most respects save one, it could only web to about 50km with a faction web and links. I wanted a 100km web, the rapier could provide that while the loki couldn't. I ended up never actually using that loki and sold it after a couple months of it collecting dust. I wasn't afraid to fly it. In fact I kept trying to come up with excuses to. But it just wasn't of any use, our little gangs needed the range of the rapier, not 300 more dps.

That situation is presented across most t3 setups. They can do several things at once which is great solo/duo. But in any larger gang you're better off with more specialized ships. And this is completely ignoring cost.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-12-29 13:55:07 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
We need more T3s available... from frigates on up to Battleships.

IMO T3's are a result of CCPs inability to find roles for new ships. So they went "hey lets make modular ships that do it all, just better", vandalizing the delicate inter ship class balance. If strategic cruisers are any indication of how the other T3s are gonna be, eve would be better off without them.


It's a good thing it is just an opinion then.

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Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-12-29 15:25:15 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
We need more T3s available... from frigates on up to Battleships.

IMO T3's are a result of CCPs inability to find roles for new ships. So they went "hey lets make modular ships that do it all, just better", vandalizing the delicate inter ship class balance. If strategic cruisers are any indication of how the other T3s are gonna be, eve would be better off without them.


So "Miss little NPC'er" wants to make them worse...not better.

I find this...amusing.Roll

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Gempei
Marvinovi pratele
#36 - 2011-12-29 15:37:18 UTC
tengu is good balanced, other tech 3 cruiser are underpowered ... nerfing is ccp way past 2 year, eve need buffing, not nerfing!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-12-29 15:45:48 UTC
Just finishing the T3 cruisers (where's that 5th subsystem?) would be nice.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Aineko Macx
#38 - 2011-12-29 15:46:16 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
So "Miss little NPC'er" wants to make them worse...not better.
I find this...amusing.Roll

What part of "nerf" did you not understand before?

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2011-12-29 15:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
Aineko Macx wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
So "Miss little NPC'er" wants to make them worse...not better.
I find this...amusing.Roll

What part of "nerf" did you not understand before?




Aineko Macx wrote:
IMO T3's are a result of CCPs inability to find roles for new ships. So they went "hey lets make modular ships that do it all, just better", vandalizing the delicate inter ship class balance. If strategic cruisers are any indication of how the other T3s are gonna be, eve would be better off without them.


Your implying they are unfocused...and your ignoring the obvious fact that Tech 3 ships have to be configured to fill those roles...and when they are..they end up being worse off in those roles they aren't configured for than they are in its intended role.

Already your being told by PVP'ers they tend to not use them as often as you hate them for fear them.

This smells like a carebear whine more than anything else.

Too many ships fill those roles better than a tech 3 does due to its extreme focus.

Tech 3 ships are fine as they are now...in-fact some are better off being buffed as opposed to nerf'd.

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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#40 - 2011-12-29 15:54:35 UTC
I really don't understand why someone would care about anything that might be called "balance" in PVE. Use the best ship there is. If it's a T3, use it. If a marauder can do better, fly the marauder. If your primary complaint is that Tengus are too good at missions...FLY A TENGU AND CASH IN ON IT. Or if you prefer to feel like your missions are tougher, fly something else. But don't try to push change on everyone else just because you think a ship is too good at shooting NPCs.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.