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A solution to Fleet ECM.
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SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2015-06-09 19:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: SFM Hobb3s
Fleet ECM. Yuck. If anything, anything fitting an ECM module or ECM-based hull should receive a huge sig radius bloom depending on the systems level of tidi. ECM and TIDI is cancer.

Also ECM bursting in tidi should make the ship using the module just instantly explode. Thanks in advance.
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2015-06-09 22:27:41 UTC
LT Alter wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:

This would make ECM completely OP in smaller gangs.


It isn't already?...

Sorry that was an obligatory troll, I also agree with you in opposition against the original poster's idea.


nothing but a complete overhaul will change that. My suggestion was to make ECM viable in fleets larger than small gangs without making it any more oppressive in small gangs.
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-06-09 22:29:15 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Fleet ECM. Yuck. If anything, anything fitting an ECM module or ECM-based hull should receive a huge sig radius bloom depending on the systems level of tidi. ECM and TIDI is cancer.

Also ECM bursting in tidi should make the ship using the module just instantly explode. Thanks in advance.


Ignoring the ECM burst complaint, ECM in a fleet would be no more annoying than remote damps
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#44 - 2015-06-10 03:20:18 UTC
Wynta wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Wynta wrote:

Kitsune goes from 3/5/2 with three launchers to 4/4/2 with two launchers or a 5/4/2 with three launchers.


Stop trying to destroy my kitsune

-1

I'm genuinely curious how this would destroy the Kitsune, with my revised OP the Kitsune would become a 5/3/2 with 3 Launchers/1 Hardpoint.

Right now this would be your Kistune, with some Meta4 instead of T2 and dropping a SDA for a MAPC...

[Kitsune, ECM]

Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

1MN Afterburner II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II

Light Missile Launcher II
Light Missile Launcher II
Light Missile Launcher II

Most people I think would drop the Launchers, fit a ***** gun, and a MWD.

What it could be with the change is...

[Kitsune, ECM + *****]

Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

1MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Gravimetric Jamming Script
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Ladar Jamming Script
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Magnetometric Jamming Script
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Radar Jamming Script
Civilian Gatling Railgun

OR

[Kitsune, Combat Kitsune]

Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

1MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

ECM - Multispectral Jammer II
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile



I have a specialized fit I use on mine that actually uses the current slot makeout quite effectively when I undock it. Your suggestion would force me to reduce my already pitiful DPS just so I can fit more tank, when I don't care about my EHP on a Kitsune because if anything sneezes on it its going to die anyways.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-06-10 05:46:37 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Wynta wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Wynta wrote:

Kitsune goes from 3/5/2 with three launchers to 4/4/2 with two launchers or a 5/4/2 with three launchers.


Stop trying to destroy my kitsune

-1

I'm genuinely curious how this would destroy the Kitsune, with my revised OP the Kitsune would become a 5/3/2 with 3 Launchers/1 Hardpoint.

Right now this would be your Kistune, with some Meta4 instead of T2 and dropping a SDA for a MAPC...

[Kitsune, ECM]

Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Signal Distortion Amplifier II

1MN Afterburner II
ECM - Spatial Destabilizer II
ECM - Phase Inverter II
ECM - White Noise Generator II
ECM - Ion Field Projector II

Light Missile Launcher II
Light Missile Launcher II
Light Missile Launcher II

Most people I think would drop the Launchers, fit a ***** gun, and a MWD.

What it could be with the change is...

[Kitsune, ECM + *****]

Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

1MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Gravimetric Jamming Script
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Ladar Jamming Script
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Magnetometric Jamming Script
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II, Radar Jamming Script
Civilian Gatling Railgun

OR

[Kitsune, Combat Kitsune]

Signal Distortion Amplifier II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

1MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Shield Extender II

ECM - Multispectral Jammer II
ECM - Multispectral Jammer II
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Light Missile



I have a specialized fit I use on mine that actually uses the current slot makeout quite effectively when I undock it. Your suggestion would force me to reduce my already pitiful DPS just so I can fit more tank, when I don't care about my EHP on a Kitsune because if anything sneezes on it its going to die anyways.


Would I be right though, in saying that your fit is not the common fit. Because every ECM boat I have ever seen used never fully utilitizes their high slots. They are either beyond the range of their highs can reach out to or they fit an oversized prop and go gunless.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#46 - 2015-06-11 04:21:12 UTC
Wynta wrote:


Would I be right though, in saying that your fit is not the common fit. Because every ECM boat I have ever seen used never fully utilitizes their high slots. They are either beyond the range of their highs can reach out to or they fit an oversized prop and go gunless.


Light missiles can reach quite far. On every ECM boat I have I always have weapon systems on it. Whether they be the proper size, or just light missiles/rockets to target that annoying drone ball around my ship, I always have some form of attack.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-06-11 06:39:27 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Wynta wrote:


Would I be right though, in saying that your fit is not the common fit. Because every ECM boat I have ever seen used never fully utilitizes their high slots. They are either beyond the range of their highs can reach out to or they fit an oversized prop and go gunless.


Light missiles can reach quite far. On every ECM boat I have I always have weapon systems on it. Whether they be the proper size, or just light missiles/rockets to target that annoying drone ball around my ship, I always have some form of attack.


And in my post for this very reason I suggested that when every ECM boat fits their maximum jams they still have a remaining high slot for a killboard gun or a utility high.

The solution to that could be applied like logistics ships, in that drone boats can get at the very least 1 drone.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#48 - 2015-06-12 05:40:39 UTC
Wynta wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Wynta wrote:


Would I be right though, in saying that your fit is not the common fit. Because every ECM boat I have ever seen used never fully utilitizes their high slots. They are either beyond the range of their highs can reach out to or they fit an oversized prop and go gunless.


Light missiles can reach quite far. On every ECM boat I have I always have weapon systems on it. Whether they be the proper size, or just light missiles/rockets to target that annoying drone ball around my ship, I always have some form of attack.


And in my post for this very reason I suggested that when every ECM boat fits their maximum jams they still have a remaining high slot for a killboard gun or a utility high.

The solution to that could be applied like logistics ships, in that drone boats can get at the very least 1 drone.


O wow, awesome, I get to have 1 offensive weapon to kill drones with...

And since you brought up your OP

Wynta wrote:

The main problem with ECM boats is that for every 2.5 ECM modules you get an effective 1 Jam. So unlike TP/Web/Scram that give you the guaranteed effect so long as you are in range, ECM require multiple modules just to have an effect. In addition with TP/Web having multiple on a single ship has an stacking effectiveness, whereas having multiple ECM on a single ship only increase jam chance, not duration or any other metric that makes a successful jam "better."

Because of the above ineffectiveness, ECM boats require all their Mids, minus a Prop Mod, to be fitted into ECM modules. And those ECM modules need the Lows to be fitted with SDA's to actually be effective. This leaves no room for a shield or an armor tank, but plenty of room in the high slots for launchers and guns that in 90% of scenarios will never be used to any effective degree. For an ECM boat, the ECM itself is the weapon.


Your arguments here are flawed. First off it depends on what your target is for how effective your ECM modules are. It also depends if the target decided to fit ECCM on. There are some cases where each jammer jam strength is higher then your targets sensor strength which means for each matching racial jammer you have, you can be guarenteed to jam out a target.

From there, stacking TDs and SDs doesn't increase the duration of the TD/SD, it only makes it stronger, just like when you use multiple jammers on a single target, it increases the chance you have at a successful jam. There is just something called diminishing returns because the 2nd jammer is only useful if the 1st one fails, and the 3rd one is only useful if the 1st and 2nd one fail.

An ECM boat can still fit an armor tank and be effective. What the armor tank is for, is to keep you alive long enough when your jammers fail, because in most situations, its just a matter of time before they all fail. So if you are not fitting an armor tank on your ECM boats, that is your issue. One of the main reasons you don't fit a shield tank on an ECM boat is the combination of midslots being more valuable then lowslots, but also the drawback on the electronic superiority rigs is against the overall amount of shield you have. This makes any shield extenders you put on even less effective.

ECM is not an offensive weapon because your ship doesn't die when you get dropped by 50 falcons and they all jam you. You die because their weapon systems killed you while you were jammed. If they were to be moved to highslots, so should TD/SD/webs/scrams and any other EWAR module in the game.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-06-12 19:27:13 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Wynta wrote:
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Wynta wrote:


Would I be right though, in saying that your fit is not the common fit. Because every ECM boat I have ever seen used never fully utilitizes their high slots. They are either beyond the range of their highs can reach out to or they fit an oversized prop and go gunless.


Light missiles can reach quite far. On every ECM boat I have I always have weapon systems on it. Whether they be the proper size, or just light missiles/rockets to target that annoying drone ball around my ship, I always have some form of attack.


And in my post for this very reason I suggested that when every ECM boat fits their maximum jams they still have a remaining high slot for a killboard gun or a utility high.

The solution to that could be applied like logistics ships, in that drone boats can get at the very least 1 drone.


O wow, awesome, I get to have 1 offensive weapon to kill drones with...

And since you brought up your OP

Wynta wrote:

The main problem with ECM boats is that for every 2.5 ECM modules you get an effective 1 Jam. So unlike TP/Web/Scram that give you the guaranteed effect so long as you are in range, ECM require multiple modules just to have an effect. In addition with TP/Web having multiple on a single ship has an stacking effectiveness, whereas having multiple ECM on a single ship only increase jam chance, not duration or any other metric that makes a successful jam "better."

Because of the above ineffectiveness, ECM boats require all their Mids, minus a Prop Mod, to be fitted into ECM modules. And those ECM modules need the Lows to be fitted with SDA's to actually be effective. This leaves no room for a shield or an armor tank, but plenty of room in the high slots for launchers and guns that in 90% of scenarios will never be used to any effective degree. For an ECM boat, the ECM itself is the weapon.


Your arguments here are flawed. First off it depends on what your target is for how effective your ECM modules are. It also depends if the target decided to fit ECCM on. There are some cases where each jammer jam strength is higher then your targets sensor strength which means for each matching racial jammer you have, you can be guarenteed to jam out a target.

From there, stacking TDs and SDs doesn't increase the duration of the TD/SD, it only makes it stronger, just like when you use multiple jammers on a single target, it increases the chance you have at a successful jam. There is just something called diminishing returns because the 2nd jammer is only useful if the 1st one fails, and the 3rd one is only useful if the 1st and 2nd one fail.

An ECM boat can still fit an armor tank and be effective. What the armor tank is for, is to keep you alive long enough when your jammers fail, because in most situations, its just a matter of time before they all fail. So if you are not fitting an armor tank on your ECM boats, that is your issue. One of the main reasons you don't fit a shield tank on an ECM boat is the combination of midslots being more valuable then lowslots, but also the drawback on the electronic superiority rigs is against the overall amount of shield you have. This makes any shield extenders you put on even less effective.

ECM is not an offensive weapon because your ship doesn't die when you get dropped by 50 falcons and they all jam you. You die because their weapon systems killed you while you were jammed. If they were to be moved to highslots, so should TD/SD/webs/scrams and any other EWAR module in the game.


Max Jammer Strength is 17-18 if your running a 2 SDA Falcon with CS Links. Anything aboveT1 Destroyers have more Sensor Strength then 17. In a small gang these smaller ships are more common place to where having the right racial jammers in a griffin/bb/falcon can net you 1 jam to 1 module. But ECM shouldnt be restricted to such a subset of fleet combat.

I'll surrender to your second point.

One of the big problem with ECM boats is the fact that it requires Low Slots to be filled with SDA's inorder to get those that 17 jam strength, without the SDA's the Falcon with links has ~12 Strength. But while the fact that you can't fit a decent tank without completely gimping your ECM, I have a bigger problem with the fact that the shield boat is so poorly designed that it cant fit a shield tank.

Your ship doesn't die when 50 Pilgrims drop on you with Nuets either. Regardless of wat people say ECM is a offensive utility just like nuets. And there is nothing to say that the high slot is a weapon slot. You can pop many utility items up there. Other Ewar shouldnt be moved to the highslot because they only need 2 of the modules to use them to full effectiveness.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#50 - 2015-06-13 02:33:20 UTC
Wynta wrote:


1. ECM is strong in small gangs vs other small gangs because one or two pilots can spread jams across the entire enemy fleet. This power is further compounded by the fact that most small fleets are frigates which have a lower sensor strength. The poweredness of EWAR in small gangs is not exclusive to ECM; Remote Damps can crush Logi and Webs and TP can cause enough of a damage increase to break through repairs.

2. My point with the scripts is that if it takes 2 minutes to swap out jammers with a mobile depot, why not bake that into the module. It would not only provide a convenience but a strategic advantage or disadvantage. Having good scouts and intel will allow for the prescripting for the coming engagement, but not having scouts would result in ECM being relatively useless for the first minute and a half. Also it provides windows during the fight if ECM scripts need to change. In addition to this the Multispectrum jammers will have the same range as current racial jammers but lower universal strength. On a Rook a multispectrum will have to work to jam a frigate.

3. The problem with ECM is that the with for ever 2.5 modules you get 1 jam. Meaning you need a full rack of ECM and a full rack of SDAs to be useful. In other words you need 8 slots to give you 2 jams. Right now that means sacrificing all tank. Now say you don't sacrifice you tank and you get 35k shield tank with 4 jams, or a 35k armor tank with 6 jams.

In the first case (35k Shield with 4 ECM modules) you get about 1.5 effective Jams meaning in a fleet your barely a force multiplier, you come on field and take out 1 ship. In almost every situation it would be better to have a TP/Web boat that increases all your fleets damage, and in turn your effectiveness becomes huge.

In the second case (40k Armor with 6 ECM modules) you can get the same Jam strength as before with Rigs instead of SDA's the problem becomes you now don't have the PG to fit launchers or the range to jam targets in most fights.

This is the conundrum with ECM in fleets...

You either have enough effective jams to be useful or you have the tank to be useful. It doesn't work if you sacrifice one for the other because both are needed.

....


1. Thats what I said.

2. Yep.

3. What?! Effective jammers is entitely circumstantial and youre trying to balance ecm around solo brawling?? I think I know where this thread went wrong.

My black bird has 6 effective jammers depending on target and over 70km range with a tank that'll make a rupture blush. I dont understand why it needs more powerful jams, more tank, more range AND a prop mod. It ruins peoples days enough and when it goes down it costs about 10-20 mil so you can field them in numbers. The only things that laugh it off is T2 ships with eccm and the T3 blob. Everything else is fair game. So id still say ECM as a high slot is going to make them more powerful than they need to be in small gangs, and the perceived problem that they are not useful in big fleets is redundant when all e-war loses effectiveness in such large fleets.

I also see no issue with ecm ships using all their mids for e-war. I do the same with damps and TDs.

Im now thinking the entire point of this thread was to give you a wtfpwn solo ecm boat more than anything else.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#51 - 2015-06-13 03:56:52 UTC
Wynta wrote:

Max Jammer Strength is 17-18 if your running a 2 SDA Falcon with CS Links. Anything aboveT1 Destroyers have more Sensor Strength then 17. In a small gang these smaller ships are more common place to where having the right racial jammers in a griffin/bb/falcon can net you 1 jam to 1 module. But ECM shouldnt be restricted to such a subset of fleet combat.


This part isn't an issue with ECM, its an issue with all EWAR. The reason why all EWAR scales relatively poorly is because it is difficult to coordinate 200 people using their own EWAR on different targets. About as close as you can get is pick the person with a name closest to yours and put it on that person. That is what kills its effectiveness for blob warfare. Unlike logistics which scales very well because everyone can broadcast when they start getting hit and the logis can then tell who they need to rep out of the 200 people in fleet.

Wynta wrote:

One of the big problem with ECM boats is the fact that it requires Low Slots to be filled with SDA's inorder to get those that 17 jam strength, without the SDA's the Falcon with links has ~12 Strength. But while the fact that you can't fit a decent tank without completely gimping your ECM, I have a bigger problem with the fact that the shield boat is so poorly designed that it cant fit a shield tank.


Falcons are still effective without a full rack of SDA's on the lows. I mean look at most of the standard PVP fits out there on normal ships. You will don't find alot of fits with 3-4 damage modifiers on the lows on an armor tanked ship. You also don't find many fits that don't have any damage mods unless it's a bait ship. It's all about balance and recognizing when you are specializing too much in your ship for it to truly be effective in most situations. I mean if how much DPS your ship can pump out was the standard, wouldn't Vindi/Talos/Catalysts be the meta across Eve?

Wynta wrote:

Your ship doesn't die when 50 Pilgrims drop on you with Nuets either. Regardless of wat people say ECM is a offensive utility just like nuets. And there is nothing to say that the high slot is a weapon slot. You can pop many utility items up there. Other Ewar shouldnt be moved to the highslot because they only need 2 of the modules to use them to full effectiveness.


So my question here is going to be if other EWAR only needs 2 modules to be fully effective, are you only trying to counter one ship on grid? Because then you need to compare apples to apples (Great game btw), and build a Falcon that is going to only counter 1 other ship. And what happens when your target suddenly undocks his Drake and you have a Pilgrim?

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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