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A sad state of affairs - The value of information

Author
Barricade Dark
#21 - 2011-09-14 12:14:10 UTC
Quote:
Take the recent 0.0-revamp threads — they got a resounding, and almost entirely positive and constructive response because they gave the air of “yes, we're actually going to put some effort into this.” The fact that there were multiple threads alone was enough to give this impression.


I would love to see a link of these resounding and entirely positive and constructive responses, because seriously I don't know how I missed that. It would be a first in Eve forums. As I recall their was considerable carebear outrage over the proposed 0.0 changes.

I think the only thing that comes close to a consensus right now is that Incarna has been the worst and most poorly recieved expansion in the history of the game.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2011-09-14 12:16:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Headerman wrote:
EVE has been out for a long time, are big changes really unexpected?
No. Quite the opposite: people expect big changes, and they're not happening. Very little has been added to the game for a very long time now.
Barricade Dark wrote:
I would love to see a link of these resounding and entirely positive and constructive responses, because seriously I don't know how I missed that.
It's the pile of stickies at the top.
CPJS
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-09-14 12:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: CPJS
Barricade Dark wrote:
Well unless you have been living under a rock, it should be clear that CCP is in a lose lose situation with its fan base. Every change they propose has fierce opposition simply because their is zero consensus in the community. To some the null sec changes are a blessing, to others its grounds for a divorce. There are examples like this throughout every single element of the game and the playerbase rips everything apart line by line, word by word. A CCP employee could come on the forums just to say hi and it will turn into a threadnaught of insanity in minutes with stuff like "don't you have work to do?" or "Why are you saying hi instead of fixing supercaps!"..

There is nothing they can say or do that will quell the Eve population, right now they are like an angry lynch mob that just needs to hang somebody, anybody!

The only thing to be said about this situation right now is that there are people at CCP and on the CSM that are still trying, despite the immense and begrudgingly unforgiving Eve community. The hate is so fierce right now that personally the best thing they can do is just let the game die a little. Let a hundred thousand players quit, let them whine and call it CCP's NGE and than when they are gone go back to making the game they want to make and let real fans of the game enjoy it. Its what happen to Star Wars Galaxies and to be frank while the post NGE days where a horrible mess, a year later a community emerged to support the game and kept the developers busy for 6 years. That may in fact what ends up happening to Eve and in a way it may be the best thing that could happen to the game at this point.


I have to say I agree with this post. For EVE to become a fun and happy place it needs to lose the childish whiners that must only be about 12 years old.

I remember there was a day not too long ago before the magic of the internet where people played games to beat the computer. If you didn't win or thought something was unfair, you up'd your game and pushed on through. You never had the chance to go on a forum an whine until the games developers made it a little easier so you could have fun.

Everything in every game is OP if you don't counter it right. Learn to play right and become a pro. You'll find it's a lot more fun than whining about things just because you think someone will read it an care.

And to those who prefer whining and unsubbing, can I have your stuff????
Barricade Dark
#24 - 2011-09-14 12:25:10 UTC
Quote:
The problem right now is that they are making the game they want to make… and it's not EVE.


Good point, but again. If they are not making the game they want to make, whats the point really? They are a developer, its their game and its their future. I don't disagree with you that to me the latest expansions and updates seem to have very little baring on the game, but its their vision of the game they are creating not mine. I would think, or at least I would hope that they look to the community for advice and direction, but if their is one thing Hilmar has proven to us is that in every way that matters Eve is his game, not ours and the future of the game will be in his vision not ours. Incarna is undeniable proof of that because despite being widely regarded as the worst expansion ever, he WILL force it through and one day we will all be walking around in stations wether we want to or not. That is his vision and his attitude is play the game I make, or leave. CCP has done everything short of coming right out and saying it.

Barricade Dark
#25 - 2011-09-14 12:28:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Headerman wrote:
EVE has been out for a long time, are big changes really unexpected?
No. Quite the opposite: people expect big changes, and they're not happening. Very little has been added to the game for a very long time now.
Barricade Dark wrote:
I would love to see a link of these resounding and entirely positive and constructive responses, because seriously I don't know how I missed that.
It's the pile of stickies at the top.


I'm familiar with these discussions, I have read a great deal of them and I have to say.. seriously? This is a consensus? If this is a consensus than Im the bloody pope. Shocked
Barricade Dark
#26 - 2011-09-14 12:38:00 UTC
Anista Aivoras wrote:
Pretty new to this game myself, to be honest playing the game right now I don't see what the problem is really. All I see is a certain player base that wines like little children at any chance they have. And to be honest the last time I played an mmo was back when starwars galaxies first came out. Played for about a year. Even in those early years people acted this way. Really it's ok to complain and stuff but at this point I see a certaiin percent of you complainers just totally off your rocks!


Its a natural perception of a player who approaches the game without the burden of 7 years of CCP changes. You have to understand that what you refer to as whiners are really just fans of the game who have had to put up with a laundry lists of problems for not days, weeks or months, but quite literly years. There are things that where broken 3 years ago that continue to be broken today and in the course of those 3 years CCP has made a variety of promises that still have not materialized. In the meantime they are releasing expansions that introduce new problems to the game. The result is a very frustrated community and while its hard to see it as a new player, and I agree, personally I don't think its nearly as the forums might imply, on many issues I side with the so called whiners.

But overall I agree. The game is not in nearly as bad a shape as the forums imply and certainly as a fan of Eve Online I have for the past 7 years and continue to love playing this game. I have might beefs and I speak up and support change, but ultimatly you kind of have to take the good with the bad. No game is perfect but its worth saying that all other MMO's are less perfect than Eve. In comparison their is no game that comes even close to Eve right now, their aren't even any games in the same league.

Personally I would love to see some of those that complain about Eve point us to a better game.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2011-09-14 12:46:33 UTC
Barricade Dark wrote:
I'm familiar with these discussions, I have read a great deal of them and I have to say.. seriously? This is a consensus? If this is a consensus than Im the bloody pope. Shocked
I didn't say that they was a consensus — I said that they showed that everything CCP says is instantly the target of projectile vomiting. If they show that they are actually willing (we have yet to see about able) to put effort. planning, and strategy into changing the game, then people will be quite eager to debate those changes in a positive and constructive manner.

Yes, those threads had some negativity, but that was largely an exception and was more commonly directed towards the ideas proposed by other players than towards the revamp idea itself. They were actual debate and brainstorming threads.

The point I'm making is that people hurl abuse at CCP if/when they take a cavalier approach to fiddling with the game, and even more so when it's random, undirected, and piecemeal (and with the obvious spectre of lacklustre resources to back it up lurking in the shadows). If they take the task seriously, they are — even now — rewarded by far more serious responses. My guess is that it's the attitude that raises people's hackles, rather than the suggestions themselves…
Vicar2008
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-09-14 14:08:09 UTC
CCP best Troll to date "18 Months", more like 2 Years Big smile
Legendary Troll
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2011-09-14 14:37:15 UTC
The unfortunate truth is this; there are 2 sides to every coin. The only thing that the community does not take 2 sides on is bug fixes. We ALL want those.

Supercap nerf - Some want t some dont
AB removed from WH's? Some want it some dont.
New forums? Some want em some don't.
Ice moved? Some want it some don't.
Drake nerf? Some want it some dont.
NeX? Some want it some don't.
Gold ammo? Well, almost nobody wants that and so CCP took a side.

You see a pattern there? We got less than 10% of the game verbalizing in the forums, and arguing about almost everything.

CCP will get bitched at no matter what their course of action. So to keep that course under the radar is simply what they need to do if the player base wants FiS as a priority. If they spend their time pre-defending their decisions in blogs and on fiorums, it will equate to less time developing.

They should however deliver on promises already made. And that ain't gonna happen.
Kristina Vanszar
MONOCLEGEDDON
#30 - 2011-09-14 14:46:38 UTC
Hello guys,

from my point of view,

the things that will make most of the community happy would be:
Working on the CSM list (POSes, 0.0 revamp, Supercaps, UI, Mining Revamp stuff like that)

if they would say, ok, look, we are going to work on the TOP 20 points in that list for the next 12 Months, i'm pretty sure everyone would be happy as hell.

Because what bothers ME, is that CCP is starting to focus on ****** shiney expensions, and stuff for the NEX store.
I do not need ******* Paintjobs for my ships, i do not need, 30 pairs of shoes, i do not need CQ, i do not need WiS i do not need new conetnt, all i want is the game we already have, balanced and fixed.

If they're able to fix and balnce all the ****, happend since dominion, they would get a free ticket to Make "Barbie in Space" becouse most of the community would be happy and CCP would gain trust again.

Yeah there always some trolls yelling becouse they're ship got nerfed, ignore that, that are like 1 % of the playerbase.
That are people the community does not need.

The fact that the whole or at least 80 % of the playerbase, got together and said, ok look, thats a ******* nogo.
CCP should realise, that they're doing something wrong and that changes are required NOW, not SOON.

o7
Prince Kobol
#31 - 2011-09-14 15:01:00 UTC
Anista Aivoras wrote:
Pretty new to this game myself, to be honest playing the game right now I don't see what the problem is really. All I see is a certain player base that wines like little children at any chance they have. And to be honest the last time I played an mmo was back when starwars galaxies first came out. Played for about a year. Even in those early years people acted this way. Really it's ok to complain and stuff but at this point I see a certaiin percent of you complainers just totally off your rocks!


And here lies in the problem.

CCP are trying to attract new players as without new players a MMO will die.

On the other hand you also have to keep your current playbase happy to a certain degree.

The trick is trying to balance the two.

The important question is which does CCP value more, attracting new players or keeping those already playing happy?


Also somebody asked when the last PCU record was broken, I believe it was Jan 23rd of this year and it was 63k :)


Vicar2008
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-09-14 15:11:46 UTC
But you want the older duders telling the younger duders, this game is great and its well worth the time, money etc you sink into it. At present there isnt many Older duders even logging in any great numbers, and those that do probably in someway are putting off prospective newer players. I think this the trend for the last 6 months at least anyway.
Prince Kobol
#33 - 2011-09-14 15:30:09 UTC
Vicar2008 wrote:
But you want the older duders telling the younger duders, this game is great and its well worth the time, money etc you sink into it. At present there isnt many Older duders even logging in any great numbers, and those that do probably in someway are putting off prospective newer players. I think this the trend for the last 6 months at least anyway.


Hold..

I've been playing Eve for something like 18 months and I am enjoying it more then ever.

The one thing I have learned is that regardless of the game, most of the time the longer a person has been playing it the more they tend to complain.

I played Lotro since beta and it was a MMO I really enjoyed playing but about 7 - 8 months ago I realised that I had become tired and no matter what Turbine did I would always find fault.

It is very hard to please older players as they have already been there and done it so they tend to get though new content very quickly.

Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-09-14 15:55:47 UTC
Ciar Meara wrote:


Why does CCP continue to stealth about upcoming plans,


same reason they stealth added a crapload of stuff to the next patch just for the NeX store. 100mb patch for a few lighting tweaks in CQ an a few other things. Watch the files loading, its mostly NeX bullshit.

For all the in game fixes you can expect 10x that in NeX goods

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-09-14 17:13:53 UTC
Headerman wrote:
EVE has been out for a long time, are big changes really unexpected? Does anyone want a continuing game that never changes?

Do you think changes should be limited to just new ships and ajustments of existing attributes for everything?

Take SM 3 for instance. Shader Model 3 came out in 2004. CCP Implemeted it in June 2011. Yes it slowed the game down but it's a pretty obvious technology to implement and use.

What is the benifit of this? EVE looks prettier. EVE is a beautiful game to watch. Ships have great detail, the new turrets are amazing. Now SM 3 is introduced and is the new graphics base, i would expect many more things to happen to enhance the visual appeal of EVE.

Since i started playing in 2009 i was told that EVE runs on some pretty sloppy coding that was a PITA to work with. I don't know if that is right or not, but from what i know, all transactions were running on Python with an incredibly annoying global lock. Now that that has evolved into CarbonIO, it will also have many good flow on effects.

We had a big heap of good/big expansions recently: Aprocrypha with it's new WHs, scanning and T3's, Dominion with big Sov changes and SC buff, Incursion with PI and the introduction of the Sansha revival, and Incarna with Carbon IO, SM 3, turrets, NeX, Incursions etc.

With those revamps done, do you think bad things will happen or something?
This must be a troll. It has to be.

CCP has enough unfinished work and bugs associated with those expansions to consume at least a year's worth of development, testing and release resources.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.

Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#36 - 2011-09-14 21:13:19 UTC
I feel this thread has gone from me saying my piece about CCP communication failures and lack of updates to their customers to a fight over what direction EVE should take or what kind of players CCP needs. I think it is fairly clear what player want and I can illustrate this thusly:


Compare reactions

EvE Online Flying in Space content

to

Incarna expose

In one video there is a spontanious instant reaction of the public to something they like, in the other CCP Zulu has to squeeze applause from the audience. Guess what's more popular.

Either way its information and that's cool. My gripe with CCP is mostly about them being to afraid to tell us what is being planned for EVE because of a backlash. CCP is anything but fearless these days, and the lack of information is not only driving people away but keeping allready unsubbed (former) players away.

If CCP would communicate clearly about their intent there might be a backlash, there might be critisism but as some of the other posters pointed out that's a given. They can't please everybody, but they could at least try to inform everybody.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

Fawcks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-09-15 01:20:54 UTC
Ciar Meara wrote:
Ever since I can remember gaming companies tried to entice potential customers to their products by giving them a taste of the finished product. This was done by producing screenshots, video's, interviews with developers and demo's. Its a practice that (I hope you agree) is still quite prevalent today.

However since CCP experienced our sea of discontent as so aptly portraited by Fiddlers Edge we have been left in the dark. We know that certain devs have good ideas, we know that they have asked for feedback on their plans and this is all well and good. However of the coming establishments, open area's and of the new additional CQ's we have seen nothing recent. Neither have we seen any kind of information regarding other plans in EVE At least not those of us who have not signed an NDA.

Sure CCP has done some interviews, saying all kinds of stuff. They say they are balancing every ship in the game. They also say they are going to redesign 0.0 over the coming 5 years, these changes span from introducing "smallholds" to making smaller alliances viable in 0.0 (with treaties I presume). These plans are needed and welcome but in which way will EVE benefit from all this discussion and planning in practice in the coming year? We have no idea, but the next expansion is only 3 months away.

Why does CCP continue to stealth about upcoming plans, ideas and new features. I am sure that many things need to be ironed out but on the other hand certain things and ideas must have progressed in such a way that they are scheduled for a release somewhere between now and early june? I dearly hope that for instance CQ's are more then halfway finished by now since the CSM got a preview of them in June. How are the new ship skins coming or the nerfing of the dramiel or the balancing of other ships?

What is stopping CCP to inform their clients, on the product that they subscribe to? Vague promises of changes just about on the horizon without context we allready have received. These in itself are not the problem, the lack of any other input to wet our appetites for new eve content is. We have not even seen a dedicated page to Incarna or the coming winter expansion. Nor have we seen or heard anything about what exactly the goal will be in the upcoming "establishments".

Last night several of my friends who are already unsubbed got a mail about how CCP invited them back to EVE assuring them that CCP had no plans to implement game breaking items in the NeX store. While this is one of the issues many people unsubbed over they did not address the issues completely nor did they offer any new or exciting changes to their potential new customers. Overal the mail was an unconvincing, almost sad attempt to tempt people back without any real changes. These are not my words, but the opinion of the people receiving the mail.

If we can make dev blogs about two new shirts and a skirt being released on the NeX, it couldn't hurt about making one about the upcoming new skins of the ships and the ability to paint them. I don't think that a devblog like that would be received badly by any Capsuleer and it is just one example out of many topics that could be discussed in a positive way.
This would benefit both CCP, their players and the bitter old vets of which I know I am one. Like I said before, inside every bitter vet there is a fanboy, screaming to get out and play. Give us a chance to release him/her.

Bump because there might be something in this post that I like, but god damn is it too long for me to maintain enough interest in to read completely.
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