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Filling The Gap - T2 Battleships: The Carrier Escort
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Rei Lithium
New Canada
#21 - 2015-05-31 20:12:32 UTC
I'm actually not against the idea of a battleship-sized carrier. The trick would be that rather then limiting it to 5 fighters, I would limit it to 3 or something. I don't know the damage output, but the idea of flying a pocket carrier is, in concept, interesting. Like the idea that has floated around of a battleship that can mout Dreadnaught guns. Likely just 1 gun, or in this case a smaller number of fighters. bridging the damage gap, allowing it to do what the battlecrusers that mount Battlship guns can do. Put out obsene amounts of damage, but with less defence. a Glass Hammer if you will.

I don't think CCP is in a poisition to be adding new ship types at the moment. they are still hard core into Sov, structures and the T3 crusers.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2015-05-31 20:17:40 UTC
Rei Lithium wrote:
I'm actually not against the idea of a battleship-sized carrier. The trick would be that rather then limiting it to 5 fighters, I would limit it to 3 or something. I don't know the damage output, but the idea of flying a pocket carrier is, in concept, interesting. Like the idea that has floated around of a battleship that can mout Dreadnaught guns. Likely just 1 gun, or in this case a smaller number of fighters. bridging the damage gap, allowing it to do what the battlecrusers that mount Battlship guns can do. Put out obsene amounts of damage, but with less defence. a Glass Hammer if you will.

I don't think CCP is in a poisition to be adding new ship types at the moment. they are still hard core into Sov, structures and the T3 crusers.


Why would you pay carrier price for a third of a carrier's damage?
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#23 - 2015-05-31 20:24:40 UTC
Market Wizard wrote:

I think we should do it the other way around. Balance the capitals first with the idea in mind that new ships could be added to see if there is even a gap that needs to be filled. We have to remember that any ship added that isn't classified as a capital will be allowed in high sec. This could lead to an imbalance in high sec forcing CCP to do more balancing passes to fix a problem that could have been avoided.


Balancing capitals first is what we have been seeing. That is why capitals have been constantly getting nerfed into the ground making them questionably not worth the price tag because we have nothing of which to compare their desirable power level. Comparing capitals to T1 BS/T2 cruiser hulls is literally comparing apples to oranges in price point and proper power.

It is far easier to launch T2 BS which can be balanced against T1 BS and made comparable to the power jump from T1 to T2 cruiser hulls. From there you can balance Capitals with that in mind as you will not have a ship with a comparable price point. Some players have fooled themselves into thinking price is not a balancing point, when it most definitely is. If a ship costs far more than it's lower tiered counterparts without a noticeable (not saying made OP, just noticeable ~20%) difference in power or tank then it will not be used outside of fringe cases, which is bad.

Balancing should always be done around PVP btw, never high sec PVE activities. And a tier of ships with a price tag around 1 billion a pop is not likely to ever make it on a high sec ganker's top 10 list of ships to use.


Market Wizard wrote:
I don't believe this to be true. On one hand you have a BS sized ship with the same bonuses as a cruiser that is slower, easier to hit and more expensive, which will make most people just use cruisers. On the other you give them bonuses to ewar that are higher than cruisers making them borderline OP (if not crossing it).


It is a battleship level hull. You cannot compare it to the damage/projection of a cruiser, see them be more efficient at that role then call it OP. Each hull type has benefits and drawbacks. There is a reason we have come to call this game "Cruisers Online" mobility creep combined with role variety within T2 cruiser hulls has been out of control since their release, and it has made most BS level ships obsolete.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#24 - 2015-05-31 20:35:48 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:


Simply put, T2 BS hulls should be crossed with their corresponding racial Ewar as a secondary to their repair services.
Amarr: Tracking disruption
Caldari: ECM
Gallente: Sensor damps
Minmatar: Target painting

Bastion is a miniature siege modules, while I agree it can, for the purposes of smaller BS hulls, be giving a multi purpose rather than introducing a new "triage" type modules. Such that each T2 hull to be released will also be focused around use of this module to boost their respective roles. Typically involving improved range and application of the involved system with an increase to local tank in exchange for complete immobility and loss of remote assistance.

So, unjammable, un-dampable uber-damps on a RR platform with native resists approaching the RR sub t3s, battleship buffer and strong local tank bonuses? Sweet. I want one of them. Shame about that game balance thing we used to have.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Market Wizard
Doomheim
#25 - 2015-05-31 20:43:32 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Balancing should always be done around PVP btw, never high sec PVE activities. And a tier of ships with a price tag around 1 billion a pop is not likely to ever make it on a high sec ganker's top 10 list of ships to use.


Because there is no such thing as PVP in high sec and war dec'ers never use expensive ships Roll

Nasar Vyron wrote:
It is a battleship level hull. You cannot compare it to the damage/projection of a cruiser, see them be more efficient at that role then call it OP. Each hull type has benefits and drawbacks. There is a reason we have come to call this game "Cruisers Online" mobility creep combined with role variety within T2 cruiser hulls has been out of control since their release, and it has made most BS level ships obsolete.


Im not comparing the dmg or projection of anything I was strictly looking at power of ewar, which will make your mobility worthless under perma jam that can hit you at 180-200km. As far as "Cruisers online" goes, I cant comment on that because I march to the beat of my own drum rather than following the herd of sheep.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#26 - 2015-05-31 20:58:41 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
I stopped reading when you said battleship can use fighter bombers
-1000 for the very thought of that

also here several other points that garner a big red No from me:
- bastion modules are specific to marauders, it should stay that way the same way no other hull can use siege/triage
- Super DPS logi, because logic and reasons
- 8 mediums and 6 lows? Get real
- failure to explain the point of this, or even what caused you to think of it
- ishukone hulls
- the post in general

the only thing i even liked about this post was the name "hydra" because then i could name it Heil


I forgot to strip out the fighter bomber part...my bad...will go back and edit.
bastion modules can be made more use of so that is a non-sequitor
Its not super dps (unless you consider 500-750 dps to be super as opposed to cruiser range)
:: yes it has logistics bonuses but very limited high slots (3-4 depending on the race and it can't get outside help - unlike the Nestor or other logistics cruisers

I was having a discussion with corp mates for a couple hours on what would make a good addition to T2 battleships and I started with the idea of filling a specific role that has yet to be filled in that arena. Marauders are halfway to dreads to I figured a CVE would be a good halfway to carriers.

It can't jump, refit or carry ships around. It isn't a mobile stuff hauler and won't hae ridiculous EHP out of bastion. It can be capped out by neuts just as easily as any other sub cap BS can. The idea that it is OP as a concept is based mainly in ignorance.

Yes 8 meds and 6 Lows with the 4 highs is still 1 less slot than the golem gets overall. you probably didn't notice that. Marauders get 19 slots and these CVE's would get 18.

Ishukone - becuase they haven't done a T2 battleship hull and they have the Eagle and Vulture I think as their other hulls. Rule of Cool mainly dominates but I would also accept a Sukuuvestaa skin :)

- post in general is your problem not mine; don't like it? don't reply.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#27 - 2015-05-31 21:05:16 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
While I agree we need T2 BS hulls in this game I do not at all agree with what you have suggested here. One of the worst things CCP ever did was allow weapon/logistics systems to be used cross platform from their intended hulls. Bombers are super specific, fighters are carrier specific - this needs to stay with no more crossover than between those two hull types.

Simply put, T2 BS hulls should be crossed with their corresponding racial Ewar as a secondary to their repair services.
Amarr: Tracking disruption
Caldari: ECM
Gallente: Sensor damps
Minmatar: Target painting



You already have a caldari ECM boat twice over in the BS category

Widow - ECM
Scorpion - ECM

Gallente have a drone boat instead of ewar since drones were the originally designed counter to ECM
Amarr got the geddon modified from a gun platform to a cap warfare and drone platform with the cap warfare replacing the TD role to a degree
Minmatar got the typhoon modified to a missile platform since they always favor a MORE DAKKA approach to warfare.

There is no shortage of electronic warfare in general on the field these days. There's more of a shortage of counters but not of ewar itself. Your statement that fighters are carrier specific is only true for now. There is no hard and fast rule and in my post I restrict it to 5 total. That is you get 1 flight - if it gets popped you're SOL. 5 fighters isn't OP. If it is then please remove slowcat carriers from the game ASAP.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#28 - 2015-05-31 21:09:05 UTC
Rei Lithium wrote:
I'm actually not against the idea of a battleship-sized carrier. The trick would be that rather then limiting it to 5 fighters, I would limit it to 3 or something. I don't know the damage output, but the idea of flying a pocket carrier is, in concept, interesting. Like the idea that has floated around of a battleship that can mout Dreadnaught guns. Likely just 1 gun, or in this case a smaller number of fighters. bridging the damage gap, allowing it to do what the battlecrusers that mount Battlship guns can do. Put out obsene amounts of damage, but with less defence. a Glass Hammer if you will.

I don't think CCP is in a poisition to be adding new ship types at the moment. they are still hard core into Sov, structures and the T3 crusers.


I bolded that part to you because you admit ignorance then proceed to work outward from that position of ignorance. Its not a glass hammer its more of an anvil that occasionally throws some sparks back at you.

CCP's position is irrelevant to the post since this is the FEATURES AND IDEAS thread where you can post whatever you like in this regard. This has nothing to do with the immediate development cycle. Thanks.
Market Wizard
Doomheim
#29 - 2015-05-31 21:40:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Market Wizard
Justin Cody wrote:
Won't have ridiculous EHP out of bastion. It can be capped out by neuts just as easily as any other sub cap BS can.


Im going to just snip this portion out and give a quick look into what I would start with IF these were ever considered for a future implement.

To start, what would you consider a ridiculous tank?

-The Amarr boat with 10% armor per level at 5 would turn into 50%, the Abby comes stock with 8500 armor and 10.6 with Hull Upgrades at 5 so with skills Im going to estimate 10k for the T2 version before hull bonus to make it easy.

-Slap on the "new" 1600mm armor plates that are coming, lets say 4 Fed Navy plates to keep things simple, which adds another 20k armor before the hull bonus. Now that we are at 30k armor lets add the hull bonus of 50% to get the new 45k armor, that sounds bad.

-Wait there's more, along with the T2 resist profile it will get, it has a 20% to armor resists making it extra tough.

First thing I would do is load up my off grid links and add more resists, fleet bonuses and jump into my high grade slave set making this tank so far above any other sub-cap and it hasnt even activated Bastion yet.

Personally, I wouldnt use Bastion if you make it unable to receive remote assist while using it because it would be far stronger outside Bastion with a slow boat setup fleet that would use remote cap transfers to eliminate nos/neuts and use drones to pick off anyone unfortunate enough to cross the fleets path without capital support, ie. several dreadnoughts.


Edit: Forgot about the two T2 Trimarks that anyone with a brain would put on, oops.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2015-05-31 22:16:24 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
I stopped reading when you said battleship can use fighter bombers
-1000 for the very thought of that

also here several other points that garner a big red No from me:
- bastion modules are specific to marauders, it should stay that way the same way no other hull can use siege/triage
- Super DPS logi, because logic and reasons
- 8 mediums and 6 lows? Get real
- failure to explain the point of this, or even what caused you to think of it
- ishukone hulls
- the post in general

the only thing i even liked about this post was the name "hydra" because then i could name it Heil


I forgot to strip out the fighter bomber part...my bad...will go back and edit.
bastion modules can be made more use of so that is a non-sequitor
Its not super dps (unless you consider 500-750 dps to be super as opposed to cruiser range)
:: yes it has logistics bonuses but very limited high slots (3-4 depending on the race and it can't get outside help - unlike the Nestor or other logistics cruisers

I was having a discussion with corp mates for a couple hours on what would make a good addition to T2 battleships and I started with the idea of filling a specific role that has yet to be filled in that arena. Marauders are halfway to dreads to I figured a CVE would be a good halfway to carriers.

It can't jump, refit or carry ships around. It isn't a mobile stuff hauler and won't hae ridiculous EHP out of bastion. It can be capped out by neuts just as easily as any other sub cap BS can. The idea that it is OP as a concept is based mainly in ignorance.

Yes 8 meds and 6 Lows with the 4 highs is still 1 less slot than the golem gets overall. you probably didn't notice that. Marauders get 19 slots and these CVE's would get 18.

Ishukone - becuase they haven't done a T2 battleship hull and they have the Eagle and Vulture I think as their other hulls. Rule of Cool mainly dominates but I would also accept a Sukuuvestaa skin :)

- post in general is your problem not mine; don't like it? don't reply.



So, again, why would you pay carrier money for a ship that was less capable than a rattlesnake?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-05-31 23:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Justin Cody wrote:
I was having a discussion with corp mates for a couple hours on what would make a good addition to T2 battleships and I started with the idea of filling a specific role that has yet to be filled in that arena. Marauders are halfway to dreads to I figured a CVE would be a good halfway to carriers..




a domi, rattler, hell even an Ishtar is a decent halfway to carrier. YOu are making them some magical beast never seen in the lower ranks. They aren't.

Drones and fighters are the same mechanics.

Run reppers in high slot, you got logi covered.


You are lacking what makes the carrier different. Jumping.....and fuel/stront management and cap management (well less so with fatigue, old days you worried a lot about cap recharge on your hops to gtfo faster on multihop runs, now you get your timeouts to make that happen lol). This is where caps get fun. Rest is SSDD.

basing an argument going well bastion is bad. bastion was ccp getting interest in marauders again. Somewhere between point A and B they were becoming less viable for use.

Pirate BS were making them look bad in pve, their supposed area of dominance. The loot mod bonuses marginalized by noctis. As imo (and many others) it is better to blow the crap out of missions full steam ahead and just whip out the noctis before the 2 hours up on the wrecks. And a strong fart could jam them, writing off gurista entirely for missions. ANd rng gives these out all over even once on a while.

Enter bastion. tank boosts for the min maxers (who then whined on DC's tank dies in bastion...as they run bare minimal tank). E-war immunity to not have 2 level 4 runners (one for the gurista rng give outs) for the I want one ship players And some range. Voila...a t2 mission running bs now worth its price tag again.

CCP didn't do bastion to take the game in new directions, they did it to have marauders not suck in a way that didn't have them shoot straight to wtfbbqpownage either. Flipside this and well insert any drone rant thread you want. Make it one involving sentry bonused ships. Or runs gecko's well. Since well...if you want remote control frigate (what a fighter is kind of) why not go for the remote control cruiser which is in game now.

There is no lack of interest in some drone boats the take away. there is no ship class to save really.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#32 - 2015-06-01 07:21:15 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Rei Lithium wrote:
I'm actually not against the idea of a battleship-sized carrier. The trick would be that rather then limiting it to 5 fighters, I would limit it to 3 or something. I don't know the damage output, but the idea of flying a pocket carrier is, in concept, interesting. Like the idea that has floated around of a battleship that can mout Dreadnaught guns. Likely just 1 gun, or in this case a smaller number of fighters. bridging the damage gap, allowing it to do what the battlecrusers that mount Battlship guns can do. Put out obsene amounts of damage, but with less defence. a Glass Hammer if you will.

I don't think CCP is in a poisition to be adding new ship types at the moment. they are still hard core into Sov, structures and the T3 crusers.


Why would you pay carrier price for a third of a carrier's damage?


to use in high sec of course or micro gangs. You can still slap a micro-jump drive on it (but no cool-down bonus like the marauder).

It has its uses in being a better fleet ship than a nestor but without the exploration ability...more focused on combat and making use of fighters.

I'd fly it. Maybe you wouldn't. But that's your decision
Justin Cody
War Firm
#33 - 2015-06-01 07:30:00 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:
I was having a discussion with corp mates for a couple hours on what would make a good addition to T2 battleships and I started with the idea of filling a specific role that has yet to be filled in that arena. Marauders are halfway to dreads to I figured a CVE would be a good halfway to carriers..




a domi, rattler, hell even an Ishtar is a decent halfway to carrier. YOu are making them some magical beast never seen in the lower ranks. They aren't.

Drones and fighters are the same mechanics.

Run reppers in high slot, you got logi covered.


You are lacking what makes the carrier different. Jumping.....and fuel/stront management and cap management (well less so with fatigue, old days you worried a lot about cap recharge on your hops to gtfo faster on multihop runs, now you get your timeouts to make that happen lol). This is where caps get fun. Rest is SSDD.

basing an argument going well bastion is bad. bastion was ccp getting interest in marauders again. Somewhere between point A and B they were becoming less viable for use.

Pirate BS were making them look bad in pve, their supposed area of dominance. The loot mod bonuses marginalized by noctis. As imo (and many others) it is better to blow the crap out of missions full steam ahead and just whip out the noctis before the 2 hours up on the wrecks. And a strong fart could jam them, writing off gurista entirely for missions. ANd rng gives these out all over even once on a while.

Enter bastion. tank boosts for the min maxers (who then whined on DC's tank dies in bastion...as they run bare minimal tank). E-war immunity to not have 2 level 4 runners (one for the gurista rng give outs) for the I want one ship players And some range. Voila...a t2 mission running bs now worth its price tag again.

CCP didn't do bastion to take the game in new directions, they did it to have marauders not suck in a way that didn't have them shoot straight to wtfbbqpownage either. Flipside this and well insert any drone rant thread you want. Make it one involving sentry bonused ships. Or runs gecko's well. Since well...if you want remote control frigate (what a fighter is kind of) why not go for the remote control cruiser which is in game now.

There is no lack of interest in some drone boats the take away. there is no ship class to save really.


This lacks jumping, Refitting services, ship ferrying services and reps that are absurdly effective outside of triage (slowcats anyone?)

This is far less than a carrier so I feel it appropriate to allow SOME dps while it is unable to be helped by the larger fleet. The reason I chose Bastion as a thing to continue with is because I like the mechanic. I like the idea that one can get big bonuses but at a big risk as well.

As for what someone said about its armor and used the abaddon's base 8,500 armor as a starting point...I never did give any specific stats to armor, CPU or grid or even drone bay vs fighter bay sizes. I haven't gotten that far. I will probably post more when I do. But if we look at say Black Ops with their nerfed CPU/Grid/Shield/Armor over their T1 base hulls I might start out with lower base stats in some cases. That is worth experimenting with.

I wanted some flavor in each of the races choice as well reflecting their doctrines. The Caldari and Amarr are more static in feel with heavier sustained tanks whereas the Minmatar would feel as a raider with a very high burst tank (higher than the caldari version). The Gallente is the most flexible in terms of remote repair bonuses being able to mount reps for all 3 or any combination...though at a lesser bonus. Their fighters also get the most HP and damage as well as a sig reduction so thtey take less damage in the first place. Its a very Vanguard feel. The minmatar and gallente versions also have bonuses for combat when out of bastion for regular drones - this adds to their flexibility and operability different from the Amarr and Caldari.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2015-06-01 10:54:32 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Rei Lithium wrote:
I'm actually not against the idea of a battleship-sized carrier. The trick would be that rather then limiting it to 5 fighters, I would limit it to 3 or something. I don't know the damage output, but the idea of flying a pocket carrier is, in concept, interesting. Like the idea that has floated around of a battleship that can mout Dreadnaught guns. Likely just 1 gun, or in this case a smaller number of fighters. bridging the damage gap, allowing it to do what the battlecrusers that mount Battlship guns can do. Put out obsene amounts of damage, but with less defence. a Glass Hammer if you will.

I don't think CCP is in a poisition to be adding new ship types at the moment. they are still hard core into Sov, structures and the T3 crusers.


Why would you pay carrier price for a third of a carrier's damage?


to use in high sec of course or micro gangs. You can still slap a micro-jump drive on it (but no cool-down bonus like the marauder).

It has its uses in being a better fleet ship than a nestor but without the exploration ability...more focused on combat and making use of fighters.

I'd fly it. Maybe you wouldn't. But that's your decision



I'd fly a rattlesnake, which would do everything your ship could do, but better, and for less than half the price. There would be absolutely no reason to fly the mini carrier when any other droneboat can do it all better and far cheaper.

How is it a better fleet ship than a nestor anyway? A nestor will outdamage it, outrep it, outtank it, while still providing fleet refitting services and costing pretty much the same amount.
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#35 - 2015-06-01 11:30:53 UTC
A T2 BS Triage ship that can still do damage..... erm nope.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-06-01 22:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Justin Cody wrote:
This is far less than a carrier so I feel it appropriate to allow SOME dps while it is unable to be helped by the larger fleet. The reason I chose Bastion as a thing to continue with is because I like the mechanic. I like the idea that one can get big bonuses but at a big risk as well.



I get this. What I am wondering how this fills a gap. Its not prepping for carriers in any way over a current BS imo. Lacking anything to "prepare" for caps this becomes I want a ship to own in empire idea really. Want to prep for caps....train them on sisi is my suggestion if not comfortable running them on the real server at first.

it to me is just a really tanky drone boat. Which is not really needed. One of the bene;s of current drone BS's is well they can tank already. Rattlers main claim to fame is it can slap on one hell of a tank. Even with plain ole t2 fittings.

Or a tanky logi boat. In empire. Where even if the other side is honorable enough to not use neut logi, this beast will be something hard to kill. Where once we cut through all the bullcrap...we know empire dec bears tend to pick easy targets usually. If a corp decced fights back for a change but can't get the N+1 to pop the basi backing up a dec crew fleet.....how the hell is it going to get the N+1 to pop a "triaged" baby carrier, or a few of them.

Bigger question is should empire even become a N+1 fest to counter baby carriers. We can argue it was cap and super proliferation that ruined some of the fun aspects to 0.0. I am a paradox here....I am very cap capable, Even bothered to run t2 siege and triage. I also, oddly enough, am also in the cap and super blobs must burn crowd lol.


Not concerned about high slots, run reppers on a bs. This can be done already. Been a while since I flew scorpions in combat. last I did it was pre-tiericide when it had 2 ulility slots. Here is what my utilities were, armour and hull rr. 1 cap injection mixed in with ecm for recharge.

And....many was the time people were almost as happy I was there for ghetto RR as well as jamming. Here we can argue what "effective" repping is. Me I saw first hand being the only hull repper in the crew and quite a few people needing hull topped...I didn't need bonuses to be effective. When your choice is being in deep space, far from home and your hull close to if not smoking....a lone hull repper on a scorpion is a very much loved.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#37 - 2015-06-12 02:19:12 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:
This is far less than a carrier so I feel it appropriate to allow SOME dps while it is unable to be helped by the larger fleet. The reason I chose Bastion as a thing to continue with is because I like the mechanic. I like the idea that one can get big bonuses but at a big risk as well.



I get this. What I am wondering how this fills a gap. Its not prepping for carriers in any way over a current BS imo. Lacking anything to "prepare" for caps this becomes I want a ship to own in empire idea really. Want to prep for caps....train them on sisi is my suggestion if not comfortable running them on the real server at first.

it to me is just a really tanky drone boat. Which is not really needed. One of the bene;s of current drone BS's is well they can tank already. Rattlers main claim to fame is it can slap on one hell of a tank. Even with plain ole t2 fittings.

Or a tanky logi boat. In empire. Where even if the other side is honorable enough to not use neut logi, this beast will be something hard to kill. Where once we cut through all the bullcrap...we know empire dec bears tend to pick easy targets usually. If a corp decced fights back for a change but can't get the N+1 to pop the basi backing up a dec crew fleet.....how the hell is it going to get the N+1 to pop a "triaged" baby carrier, or a few of them.

Bigger question is should empire even become a N+1 fest to counter baby carriers. We can argue it was cap and super proliferation that ruined some of the fun aspects to 0.0. I am a paradox here....I am very cap capable, Even bothered to run t2 siege and triage. I also, oddly enough, am also in the cap and super blobs must burn crowd lol.


Not concerned about high slots, run reppers on a bs. This can be done already. Been a while since I flew scorpions in combat. last I did it was pre-tiericide when it had 2 ulility slots. Here is what my utilities were, armour and hull rr. 1 cap injection mixed in with ecm for recharge.

And....many was the time people were almost as happy I was there for ghetto RR as well as jamming. Here we can argue what "effective" repping is. Me I saw first hand being the only hull repper in the crew and quite a few people needing hull topped...I didn't need bonuses to be effective. When your choice is being in deep space, far from home and your hull close to if not smoking....a lone hull repper on a scorpion is a very much loved.


Its supposed to be hard to kill for 1 - it does prepare you interms of skill requirements and multi-tasking for a carrier since you don't get outside support in triage. You won't be fielding huge fleets of these any mroet han you see large nestor fleets in high sec so your complaint doesn't register.

No one is stopping you from fitting a hull rep...in fact the gallente one gets a bonus to remote hull repairs. RR bs as a thing is dead thanks to guardians and t1 cruiser logi. Trying to argue my points in this thread is aggravating because everyone takes it as an occasion to crap on a thread and post their stupid anecdotes rather than look at the current game meta. Talking about pre-tiericide stuff is just a non-sequitur. Go back...re-think your points and try to be cogent.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#38 - 2015-06-12 05:00:04 UTC
So, Let us sum up the points of this ship:

Unjammable.
Reps.
DPS while running reps.
High resists.
Largish cap pool.
Unjammable RR.
Bonused local tank.
Fighters.
Undampable RR.
High EHP rep platform with battleship sig and no EWAR vulnerability.


So, on the face of it, nothing I want to see in space. Ever.
But wait, there's more.
It also starts us on the path to bastion modules on more things than marauders. Making the gimmick of a single class module a universal way to shoehorn capabilities onto other proposed ideas, is a major problem to me.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#39 - 2015-06-12 08:17:39 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Not supported. You are looking for a solution to a problem that does not exist.


Exactly. I've said several times already in other bad-idea posts begging for a 3rd set of T2 battleships, there is just no legitimate role out there for the damned things. If people are that serious about it, for one thing, looking in a direction that doesn't center around the bastion module like EVERYONE else's idea might be a start.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-06-12 08:57:33 UTC
Yeah, Fighters can't be a thing on these. Sentries are also not a great idea, given how much controversy is around sentries. I do, and have always, like the idea of a light carrier class of sorts, but the bastion module is not really the answer. Marauders are obscene in high sec. About the only role I could see these going into would be a crossover between logistics cruisers and black ops, not logi cruisers and maruaders. If you wanted to fit a triage module to it(give it a fitting reduction bonus), require it to use fuel, and all the other negatives to a full triage module, then maybe you could look at more than just a shorter range, higher rep amount big logistics cruiser, but other than that..... The Nestor kinda does most of what any light carrier role would do.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
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