Player Features and Ideas Discussion

To be fair, I was playing from minute one after entering EVE by doing the tutorials. I had more than enough to do back then in terms of getting a grasp of what's going on, what to do, how to do it. Back then, I wasn't sitting around doing nothing, I wasn't logged off playing another game (as far as I remember) and I didn't struggle to find skills to train overnight after my first couple of hours. Back then, however, I also encountered a very informative, helpful, friendly, experienced and reasonable crowd in the Hedion University chat channel which explained lots of things to me, gave me recommendations, hints and tips where to look for things, where I can find infos, where I can do stuff. In addition to that, I also have a relatively high degree of curiosity and know how to use google if I need to know something when no one is around to answer my questions. I feel like these essential traits have gone lost in recent years. Instead of curiosity and willingness to look things up, people expect others to do that for you, people expect things given to them.

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1. Propulsion Jamming I (25 minutes; 150.000 ISK)
2. Hull Upgrades I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 60.000 ISK)
3. Hull Upgrades II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
4. Hull Upgrades III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
5. Afterburner I (8 minutes, 20 seconds; 22.500 ISK)
6. Afterburner II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
7. Afterburner III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
8. High Speed Maneuvering I (41 minutes, 40 seconds; 340.000 ISK)
9. Weapon Upgrades I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 80.000 ISK)
10. Drones I (8 minutes, 20 seconds; 20.000 ISK)
11. Drones II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
12. Drones III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
13. Light Drone Operation I (8 minutes, 20 seconds; 50.000 ISK)
14. Repair Systems I (8 minutes, 20 seconds; 30.000 ISK)
15. Mechanics III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
16. Jury Rigging I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 60.000 ISK)
17. Jury Rigging II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
18. Jury Rigging III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
19. Armor Rigging I (25 minutes; 100.000 ISK)


11 unique skills, 19 skill levels; Total time: 1 day, 8 hours, 24 minutes, 30 seconds; Completion: 29.05.2015 04:35:35; Cost: 912.500
N.B. Skill costs are based on CCP's database and are indicative only

This is the skill plan for the Tormentor (any other Amarr laser T1 frigate). I could even cut down more hours from it if I skip the HU III and only use ANP instead of EANM, if I cut the rigs and the drones as well as the active repairs. In well under a day, people can web, scram/point, mwd and minimally armor buffer their frigate and shoot lasers as they have the frigate and laser skills already trained.
Is that really too much to ask to wait? Half of the time is usually your sleeping hours after you found someone who explains skills to you and what to train. In the rest of the time, you can watch tutorial videos about PVP and PVE, fly around during your tutorial missions and learn about the space around you. This very brief waiting period gives players the opportunity to learn at least something about the game before they throw themselves head on into the shark pond; it gives them the opportunity to get to know other players and talk with them; it gives them the opportunity to earn some basic ISK because nothing listed up there buys itself, least of all the ships, mods and ammo; it gives them the opportunity to consider various options of the broad catalog of EVE activities; it gives them -- most importantly -- time to learn about fitting ships; and it teaches them the lesson that nothing is supposed to be instant in EVE, neither activity nor gratification, that you need to do something for it to happen. Especially the very last point is something that people need to understand and less and less people seem to understand or are willing to understand it as they are conditioned to instant action and instant gratification from most other games, software and activities available. A troubling trend, if you ask me.

You're looking at it from a perfect vantage point. Lower yourself to the average newbie, I mean no disrespect by this by the way.

The reality is people won't stumble on these plans by accident, they're lucky if they have a friend to advise them so early.

People get too bent out of shape with the phrase 'instant gratification', like I say - immediately low level accessiblity is not that.


3 hours plus JUST to fit most rudimentary mod - a MWD, what BENEFIT is that to anyone? I'm sure someone is due to say 'slippery slope' by now but we have a massive problem keeping newbies. Making those first 24 hours spent IMPROVING abilities as opposed to entry barriers is a pretty big win at no cost.

I mean, if that's such a big deal, give everyone nothing. Just a noobship and a civilian laser. Free frigate skills teaches them instant gratification and it'll be free Titans next!!!!! ... Except that's ridiculous, yet the logic is the same. We shouldn't reasonably expect people to have to do extra-curricular studies on day one.

What we want is people to be able to fire up the game, fly a semblance of a sane ship and fit whilst learning the game as they go.


I mean, your skill plan is fine and all, but that's only any use if you KNOW that in advance. newbies will not, unless unduly lucky/outside help. They'll be all over the shop, then they want to fight and, hey...I don't have the skills. Guess I'll wait eh?

For a while now, I've been of the opinion that new players should be offered a "package" of skillpoints based on what areas of the NPE they have taken an interest in. The tutorial should move people around between different things, trying out each one in a virtual environment.

At the end, based on their decisions, a newbie is asked to choose between a bunch of different, focused skill builds that are oriented towards the style of play they chose.

For instance, a particular style of play might grant a player the ability to fly destroyers of their chosen race, and better fitting skills to be able to fit said ship. While another might grant a player with upgraded maneuvering and piloting skills for frigates, and higher skills with that race's small guns. Yet another could give a player upgraded drone and tank skills.

And so on, for mining, industry, exploration, and so forth. Obviously some of the old playstyle archetypes can't be included, but the ability to customize your starting status would be a good step forward, I believe.

In a nutshell, yes. Let them make those decisions after they have had a chance to try each one out, and give them a reasonable boost towards their preferred one.

This helps avoid the "look at all the skillpoints I wasted on mining" that is so often repeated today.

I remember when players started with more SP, then people complained that they started with the wrong skills...

Still, I agree... new players should start with the ability to fly their racial T1 frigate with all normal mods - point, web, propulsion module, weapons, and shield or armor modules. From there, they can work on making things better or training into new ships, but a new Minmatar player should be able to hop into a Slasher or Rifter an hour into the game and go contribute (or brawl other one hour old newbies).

I look at this from how I started EVE: I got no starting money beyond what EVE provides, I got drawn into it by some acquaintances from another game, I chatted a little bit with them but most of my information came from the Hedion University chat. The first 3 hours were for me, as far as I can remember it, to figure out how to fly my ship as it was completely different from the other space game I was playing up until then, how to make some money, how to continue with the tutorials, how modules work, how the UI functions and where functions are hidden/placed in the UI, among other things.
From what I can tell, players already have a low level accessibility to ships and fittings when the enter the game and after a couple of minutes, they can use basic ewar/tackling modules and propulsion modules. That's basic enough for them. Your exaggeration with the No-Skills-At-All or Free-Titan-For-All isn't going to change that.

Admittedly, I have little sympathy for the modern day average newbie who's been spoiled by all the other easy-mode games. Lowering EVE to their standards is nothing I will support. People can know about this skill plan, or better ones for that matter, if other players would put this more prominently on blogs, websites, forums; and if other players would be less of a dirtbag to other players in newbie help chats. From what I can tell, the lackluster NPE and accessibility is not so much about lackluster mechanics and entry gifts, but a lot more about other, older players making it harder for new players to learn things properly, about older players making it harder for new players to ask questions and get appropriate answers in the official or other clearly denoted newbie chats (what they do to newbies in local or other chats does not matter). That is the oft vaunted player interaction and player provided help and accessibility to the game. If players fail at that, the sandbox fails as a whole to some extend. And considering how many people, judging by my experience, are just logging in these days for action or go play another game, and then complain that there is nothing going on, removing more of this player interaction and forced contact points between new players and old players (tutors, if you will) is not going to help.
On the other hand, I expect players to learn about the game and not just do things, that's not how EVE works, not how it should work. You gather some information about an activity, then you try it out and then you refine it.


That is exactly what you can do, skillwise. It takes me 50 minutes to get to web/scram, basic armor mods, 1H 7M for Gyros. Can you afford any of that after you spend the starter money on the skills? Nope, not at all.

I see nothing wrong with this. They can get that precious experience with this type of char while their mains are training. But the pressure of not getting podded would be much more terrifying for those younguns that may traumatize them throughout the rest of their days in eve.

Hell YES. You know how lovely this would be? I could make instant cyno alts :) Wow, that would be great. No longer waiting some stupid time. You need a chain of of these alts from Jita to the edge of the universe? No problem, just create massive amounts of new accounts, run some tutorial stuff and you are done.

So: no.


What I would do is to add the possibility to reallocate all skill points within the first three months after creating the first char a single time. With such an approach you could start training in different directions, learn the basics of the game, pick something you really like and then focus it. So in case you decided to train something you don't want (e.g. drones instead of missiles) it wouldn't really harm you.

that was called Red Moon Rising, as a New character you started with with over 800k Sp and if you chose your race/bloodline and school right you could start with skills that allowed you to pick up 1 skill and *boom* you have a t2 skill/mod you can use