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Bringing Brawl Back - The Frustration and Solution of a Noob

First post
Author
Jack MacIntyre
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-05-19 08:07:03 UTC
The Frustration
Ever since I first started seriously looking at EVE about a year or so ago, the game's been little more than a series of downhill slopes and let-downs.

Getting into all of these would take a long time, and a lot of them are being solved, and most of them are irrelevant or community based, but there is one big let-down that is purely mechanical and has genuinely depressed me and crushed my hopes and aspirations for my time in the game.

The big let-down is that brawl ships, especially frigates, are constantly seeming less and less viable. In PvE, people do Sanctums in solo VNIs fitted purely for range, in PvP, the killboards are dominated by solo pure kite imperial navy slicers, groups of artillery gatecampers, and fleets of long-range eagles, caracals, and the sort. Because of the time involved in closing range, the mechanics of realistic damage application, and the diversity of ammunition available to already mid-to-long-range weapon systems such as energy turrets and launchers, ships that are based purely in short-range are becoming more and more disadvantaged. And that's not even accounting for the fact that EWAR is almost all 100% range-based. The only ewar that isn't range-based is ECM. Webs are made to control range, damps are made to control range, tracking disruptors are made to take advantage of range, neuts are made to paralyze a target, target painters are used as a long-range alternative to webs for missile ships. The entire meta seems to revolve around avoidance by range, advantage by range. I've never liked range fighting. I'm an in-your-face kind of fighter, and the amount of difficulty I'm having in the game, trying to play this way, is extremely demoralizing, especially as a newer player mostly limited to frigates and destroyers.

The Solution
So I was thinking earlier, and suddenly it hit me. There's a way to bring brawling back without severely harming the balance of the game. My idea is a long-range utility high slot module that reduces a target's speed based on velocity in any direction going away from the user in a straight line. The module would take advantage of existing game functions and only be usable when there are no player ships within 5km from the user, would have a range of 40km, and would simply force a target to stop moving away from the user. Only one of these modules would be able to effect a target at a time. The reduction in speed would decrease as the target changes its angle of flight to be more towards the user.

Basically, here's what I considered when I thought of this:
> Many brawl-bonused ships have a utility high slot. Examples include many of the assault frigates, the navy comet, T3 destroyers, daredevil, and others.
> Most of the brawl ships without a utility high slot are already quite powerful or sturdy and would have to give up some of their power for this valuable advantage, an equitable trade which would bring viability to their ship while sacrificing enough of its strength that doing so would not make it overpowered. This would not be so if the module were a med-slot module and very powerful brawl-bonused ships such as the Stabber Fleet Issue, Incursus, and Vindicator could use them without penalty. Users would also have to potentially sacrifice an energy neutralizer, commonly used on brawl ships, or sacrifice a turret to keep one. Having it as a high-slot module presents both opportunity, diversity, and equity of balance.
> Kite pilots will still be able to kite. Kiting will not become a non-viable tactic, but will remain in the game as a practiced skill that is much more difficult to do in the face of new brawling opportunities. Kite pilots will have to find the balance between maintaining a safe distance without shifting their orbit drastically away from their target. The module only works if the target is going away from the user, so if someone's slicer-kiting and gaining no positive distance, the module won't be effecting them.
> Having the module deactivate when the user comes within 5km of another player ship would prevent tight blobs from abusing it and ensure that a target may not be completely paralyzed by the module, but only its intended purpose will be fulfilled. It will only draw the brawler and its distant target closer together. Once the target is securely in web range, the module is no longer needed. This also ensures balance in that the module must be used with a stasis webifier or a warp scrambler, probably in addition to a warp disruptor to prevent distant targets from warping the instant they get hit with the module.
> Having only one possible module effecting each target ensures non-abuse by small gangs or fleets who intend to use this brawl-centric module to paralyze a target from all directions in order to blap it with artillery, rails, or beams from 40km.
> The nature of high-slot modules requires that the module have moderate powergrid and CPU requirements, and require capacitor to use. This further promotes balance and build diversity.


Just so we're all clear here, I'm a scrub. I'm just a newbro with a lot of frustrations, trying to find solutions to the problems I'm facing and ensure that nobody else has to face them after me.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#2 - 2015-05-19 15:03:18 UTC
When someone tries to kite me I typically just leave. Having no tackle but a long point and hurtling around st several km/s doesn't make it hard to just take your toys and go home.
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-05-19 15:35:15 UTC
Learn to kite... problem solved... Terrible idea that I almost agree with lain

joecuster
Adversity.
Snuffed Out
#4 - 2015-05-19 15:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Committing to brawl range is suicide. Tank is for the weak who don't know the wisdom of the kite.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#5 - 2015-05-19 17:08:09 UTC
Join fw, sit in plexes below large. Brawlers will come to you since you can wait patiently on beacon. Thats about the only way you can consistently get easy brawls, otherwise you need to set the field and bait the brawlers and have a way to catch the kiters, separate them or escape them(mjd for example).

Also, there are a number of brawler boats that when skilled/fit/flown correctly can catch kiters by slingshotting their orbit.
Jack MacIntyre
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-05-19 17:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Join fw, sit in plexes below large. Brawlers will come to you since you can wait patiently on beacon. Thats about the only way you can consistently get easy brawls, otherwise you need to set the field and bait the brawlers and have a way to catch the kiters, separate them or escape them(mjd for example).

Also, there are a number of brawler boats that when skilled/fit/flown correctly can catch kiters by slingshotting their orbit.


Best response so far.

*Snip* Removed a reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.
I have already said:
I am not a kite player. No, I will not learn to kite. No, I do not want to kite. I'm actually quite confident I could kite, as it is. It's a really sadly easy tactic.
I am not a battlecruiser player. I have stated that I am new, using frigates, and extremely frustrated.

It's sad. EVE advertising is almost completely based around "you can do what you want here" yet when I bring up my issues with brawling, *Snip* Removed a reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-05-19 17:46:58 UTC
Battlecruisers aren't a big leap tbh. Medium weapons, same support skills and fights last more than 10 seconds.

If you're determined on staying in frigs, some of the assault frogs brawl ok. Could PROBABLY pull it with a cruor or a DD if you're good enough and they're bad.

Brawling demands a certain amount of staying power, frigs tend to lack that.

Other things you can investigate area damps and drone based boats.
J A Aloysiusz
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-05-19 18:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: J A Aloysiusz
I'm sorry EvE could not cater to your specific goals and dreams.

EDIT: Also, Can I call you "JackIntyre" for short?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#9 - 2015-05-19 21:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
afkalt wrote:


If you're determined on staying in frigs, some of the assault frogs brawl ok.


Assault frogs? Ive been triggered into having flashbacks of playing battletoads on my super nintendo. Is there a really annoying hoverbike level?

Back to OP.*Snip* Removed a reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal. EVE is not for the thin skinned.

There is a lot of suck it up or leave attitude. Which is good to an extent.. as we bitter vets dont want EVE to turn into a watered down boring game to appeal to the masses (whiners) like WoW. Its a sandbox, just because YOU cant get brawling fights, doesnt mean they dont exist, or are impossible to get.

That said, you should learn about baiting, seperating gangs/tackle. I believe suitonia has some good videos on youtube under "EVEISEASY" that are made for low sp pilots. You should definitely check them out to help expand your knowledge on how to setup fights to your benefit.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#10 - 2015-05-19 21:18:33 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#11 - 2015-05-19 21:37:36 UTC
Having a buddy or alt in a cloaky providing a warp in so your brawler lands on/really close to the targets instead of racing towards them should be given some thought.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#12 - 2015-05-19 22:54:21 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Having a buddy or alt in a cloaky providing a warp in so your brawler lands on/really close to the targets instead of racing towards them should be given some thought.

precisely this, starting ( or forcing) the engagement on your terms is key to brawling.

I fly almost exclusively armour brawlers and have had more success than anything else so I'm not exactly a newbie on the subject.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-05-20 03:43:07 UTC
seriously does no one else fit speed mods to their run up and punch ships?

as matter in fact it's generally easier to make a close range ship faster because generally long range setups require fitting mods. where AC or blaster boat can fit Polycarbs.

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#14 - 2015-05-20 06:23:54 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
seriously does no one else fit speed mods to their run up and punch ships?

as matter in fact it's generally easier to make a close range ship faster because generally long range setups require fitting mods. where AC or blaster boat can fit Polycarbs.





I think OP is playing cautious and plating down a bit (much maybe).


I had some AC wolves where I went as minimal as I could to rush up. Also had another fit that needed support to run. No tackle whatsoever. It relied on tackle in fleet/roam to lock down the target. All damage related mods in lows, mse for tank in the other slot besides prop mod. My tackle did their job right and it came in 200 AC blazing. Only downside is you'd get the frigs must have tackle zealots aggravated. Me I said we got like 9 people with tackle...we won't be losing the war if I don't pack one too for the 10th one.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#15 - 2015-05-20 08:05:58 UTC
I'm surprised that some of the responses to this thread have been so aggressive. Maybe you don't agree with the proposed solution at all, but I think we can all agree the current meta we have right now is horribly toxic and completely not fun. The ship choices it offers are incredibly stagnant. It's very easy to see where any player, new or experienced, could be sick of it.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#16 - 2015-05-20 14:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Vic Jefferson wrote:
I'm surprised that some of the responses to this thread have been so aggressive. Maybe you don't agree with the proposed solution at all, but I think we can all agree the current meta we have right now is horribly toxic and completely not fun. The ship choices it offers are incredibly stagnant. It's very easy to see where any player, new or experienced, could be sick of it.




Problem is how to fix someone not wanting to be slammed with neut/web/scram (the brawler trio of fun usually) but not have the game imbalanced to where that then becomes he new thing to make eve stagnant. See eve was here before. In apoc when I started SR brawlers were the in thing. Eve was stagnant then too. Harb and cane, these were your BC roam fleets comps.


Or a change to make kiting even more prevalent. Like with op's idea...lets have his brawler have this. I'd eye fitting on a kiter too. My wolf I often don't need the 5th high slot. I don't have ample mids for tackle. So my arty wolf if it clears grids I put this in high slot. And get a 40km web (of sorts) to go with lr point. Very nice if target doesn't have same mod. Now if OP's brawler has it...well here we are back at square 1. I am half ass webbing him, he is half ass webbing me. Basically...I am still kiting him more slowly but he is slow by same speed cut to so its SSDD.
Valkin Mordirc
#17 - 2015-05-20 14:22:40 UTC
If I ever come across people trying to kite me, I usually slingshot outside of the point, then run to a gate, if they follow you can easily catch them as they come through the other side.
#DeleteTheWeak
Jack MacIntyre
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-05-20 15:48:24 UTC
Such a change in tone Big smile

I shall greatly and carefully consider all of these responses and all of this advice.

My slingshotting could use some practice, this is true, and moving out to nullsec right off hasn't improved my opinion of brawling at all, but that's changing and I suppose we'll see how things go.


Devasha Detrasha
Doomheim
#19 - 2015-05-21 01:59:25 UTC
I don't know why anyone would even bother flying those tiny things. Get yourself a BS and disintegrate anything within 100km.
Vic Jefferson
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#20 - 2015-05-21 02:48:39 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
I'm surprised that some of the responses to this thread have been so aggressive. Maybe you don't agree with the proposed solution at all, but I think we can all agree the current meta we have right now is horribly toxic and completely not fun. The ship choices it offers are incredibly stagnant. It's very easy to see where any player, new or experienced, could be sick of it.




Problem is how to fix someone not wanting to be slammed with neut/web/scram (the brawler trio of fun usually) but not have the game imbalanced to where that then becomes he new thing to make eve stagnant. See eve was here before. In apoc when I started SR brawlers were the in thing. Eve was stagnant then too. Harb and cane, these were your BC roam fleets comps.


Or a change to make kiting even more prevalent. Like with op's idea...lets have his brawler have this. I'd eye fitting on a kiter too. My wolf I often don't need the 5th high slot. I don't have ample mids for tackle. So my arty wolf if it clears grids I put this in high slot. And get a 40km web (of sorts) to go with lr point. Very nice if target doesn't have same mod. Now if OP's brawler has it...well here we are back at square 1. I am half ass webbing him, he is half ass webbing me. Basically...I am still kiting him more slowly but he is slow by same speed cut to so its SSDD.


Well yeah, most people want a balance between the two. It's sort of a shame ship balance seems to have taken a hit on the importance roster as of late. It's not that we need a new module here, we just need less high damage cruisers that go faster than frigates with perfect application Ugh. It's nice that people are showing tactics that can deal with kiting, but the bigger turn off for newbies is the difficulty in tackling things and actually getting fighting experience.

Like, we tell our newbies, hey, learn to tackle, you will die a lot, but you will make big plays and learn about game mechanics! Except...everything out there goes faster cold than they do overheating, and has LMLS or steroid fed drones and instantly volleys them; its easier and better for newbies to learn and play in a brawl meta when things go slower than a kite meta where everything has perfect application and goes faster than them.

Then there's the entire engagement profile thing - everything is so fast that you need to be just as fast to force a fight. Even gate camps are primarily kiting ships these days, and will just scatter instantly rather than having any sort of commitment. Newbies just have a terrible experience, where in a brawl meta, they could at least learn a bit more before being popped.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

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