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[Carnyx] The Jackdaw

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Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#321 - 2015-05-18 19:04:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback so far, especially those of you who have been testing on SISI.

We're making a couple tweaks that should be in the next SISI build for you to try out.

  • Changing the 5% shield HP bonus to a +50 shield HP per level (generally toning down the bonus a bit, especially when fitting multiple extenders)

    • Cool. Smile

    Quote:
  • +10 Velocity
  • +0.2 Inertia
  • -50,000kg mass


    • 5MN MWD 0 Meta velocities: 170 * 1.25 (1 + (6.25 * (1,500,000 / (1,100,000 + 500,000))) = 1457 m/s and 1,664 m/s overheated, with 1,943 m/s 2,772 m/s overheated in Propulsion mode, mkay.

    Align times into warp:

    -in(0.25) * 1,100,000 * 6.6 * 0.9 * 0.75 / 1,000,000 = 6.79 seconds vs 6.28 previously, and Prop's new 2.26 seconds vs 2.1 sec.

    Faster, less agile in all cases. ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)

    // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

    [Cruisers Online]
    Hakaari Inkuran
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #322 - 2015-05-18 19:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
    Altrue wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

    Changing the 5% shield HP bonus to a +50 shield HP per level (generally toning down the bonus a bit, especially when fitting multiple extenders)


    Sounds like its officially the worst bonus of the game, and it horribly scales for about any fitting. What good does 250 shield hp does on a destroyer? (fixed it)


    Edit: wait why did I think the role bonus used to be 50% shield? Am I going crazy?

    Anyway its still a nerf to extenders and I don't know why, as its power did not appreciably go up with the other tweaks.
    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #323 - 2015-05-18 19:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    James Baboli wrote:
    Altrue wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

    Changing the 5% shield HP bonus to a +50 shield HP per level (generally toning down the bonus a bit, especially when fitting multiple extenders)


    What? A flat HP bonus per level? And only 50? What is that? Shocked

    Sounds like its officially the worst bonus of the game, and it horribly scales for about any fitting. What good does 250 shield hp does on a frigate?

    Worse, on a destroyer.

    I could see 100Hp/lvl being a strong tank bonus which doesn't scale insanely with dual MSE or single LSE fits, but 50 is too weak to matter more than one good salvo.


    Well, with the base shield being 850 hp * 1.25 Skills = 1,062 hp + 250 hp from the bonus = 1,312 hp.

    With a 5% hp per level one it would have been 1,062 * 1.25 = 1327 hp.

    Reasonable as is. Smile

    Another example,

    (1,062 hp + 1,050 from MSE II) * 1.25 = 2,640 hp.
    1,062 hp + 1,050 + 250 hp = 2,362 hp.

    // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

    [Cruisers Online]
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #324 - 2015-05-18 19:25:14 UTC
    Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback so far, especially those of you who have been testing on SISI.

    We're making a couple tweaks that should be in the next SISI build for you to try out.

  • Changing the 5% shield HP bonus to a +50 shield HP per level (generally toning down the bonus a bit, especially when fitting multiple extenders)

    • Cool. Smile

    Quote:
  • +10 Velocity
  • +0.2 Inertia
  • -50,000kg mass


    • 5MN MWD 0 Meta velocities: 170 * 1.25 (1 + (6.25 * (1,500,000 / (1,100,000 + 500,000))) = 1457 m/s and 1,664 m/s overheated, with 1,943 m/s 2,772 m/s overheated in Propulsion mode, mkay.

    Align times into warp:

    -in(0.25) * 1,100,000 * 6.6 * 0.9 * 0.75 / 1,000,000 = 6.79 seconds vs 6.28 previously, and Prop's new 2.26 seconds vs 2.1 sec.

    Faster, less agile in all cases. ( ͠° ͟ʖ ͡°)


    You added 50,000kg mass instead of removing it. It's both faster and more agile after these changes.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #325 - 2015-05-18 19:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    Apologies. Sad

    I'll update current post.

    1,540 m/s / 2,204 overheated and 2,053 / 2,938 m/s OH in Propulsion mode. Align time then is 6.17 and 2.06 seconds respectively. Smile

    Striking point is that the Jackdaw would be faster than the Confessor out of Prop mode, and some 100 m/s slower than Svipul in the same, but only out of Prop against both ships. Smile

    I guess you're reserving the 50/50% Propulsion bonuses for the Hecate.

    // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

    [Cruisers Online]
    Suitonia
    Order of the Red Kestrel
    #326 - 2015-05-18 19:33:57 UTC
    Jackdaw
    -Free Small Shield Extender II at Caldari Tactical Destroyer 5.

    I don't think this bonus feels all that good, The Jackdaw is the only (current) tactical destroyer with a tank bonus on the ship per level bonuses. Perhaps a more niche (but useful) replacement could be used instead like an ECCM bonus or something? I think this is needed to balance it, but it is probably the worst ship per level bonus in the game, perhaps excluding the Helios' thermal drone per level bonus.

    Otherwise, I think you've done a great job with the preliminary balancing.

    Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

    Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
    Desiderya
    Blue Canary
    Watch This
    #327 - 2015-05-18 19:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Desiderya
    I can see the %bonus to be problematic on this ship but the 50/level bonus seems to be quite low.
    When it comes to multi-extender fit the only thing I see is that this should lead to a significant signature, which is, in many situations, quite a downside making these extra ehp questionable.
    Edit: I like the idea about not bothering with 250 hp and taking an electronics (range/sensor) bonus on board.

    Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
    Suitonia
    Order of the Red Kestrel
    #328 - 2015-05-18 19:47:10 UTC
    A small niche bonus like 5% to sensor strength per level would be pretty 'cool' and more useful than the 50HP shield bonus

    Jackdaw base is 15 (x1.2) (18 at all level 5) (36 while in sharpshooter mode)
    If it had 5% per level ECCM it would have 22.5 at level 5, and 45 while in sharpshooter mode. Definitely not going to break anything but would be cool bonus that isn't completely negligible.

    Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

    Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #329 - 2015-05-18 19:51:07 UTC
    Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
    Pharill
    An Eye For An Eye
    Phoebe Freeport Republic
    #330 - 2015-05-18 19:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Pharill
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hey everyone. Thanks for the feedback so far, especially those of you who have been testing on SISI.

    We're making a couple tweaks that should be in the next SISI build for you to try out.

    • Changing the 5% shield HP bonus to a +50 shield HP per level (generally toning down the bonus a bit, especially when fitting multiple extenders)
    • +1 Powergrid
    • -50 Shield HP
    • +50 Armor HP
    • +10 Velocity
    • +0.2 Inertia
    • -50,000kg mass
    • -25 scan resolution



    If you want to give this ship a tank bonus then give it a real tank bonus. If not then drop it.
    50hp per level is one of the biggest jokes of a bonus I have ever seen.
    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #331 - 2015-05-18 19:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    Shield Booster Activation cost in Defense mode in place of the Sig reduction one - base hull signature radius may need to be decreased somewhat.

    Along with adjustment to capacitor attributes. Maybe. P

    Pharill wrote:

    If you want to give this ship a tank bonus then give it a real tank bonus. If not then drop it.
    50hp per level is one of the biggest jokes of a bonus I have ever seen.


    You mean like the Turret Activation cost on Confessor? Roll

    That counts as a legit bonus on all Amarr Carthum/of similar type ships out of the two on Tech 1 ones, and out of the four total on Tech 2, all the while ships like the Ishtar and the Dominix get double bonuses. Smile

    And so, with the Confessor now, it is one of the two hull bonuses on T3Ds.

    // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

    [Cruisers Online]
    Hendrink Collie
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #332 - 2015-05-18 20:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrink Collie
    Suitonia wrote:
    Jackdaw
    -Free Small Shield Extender II at Caldari Tactical Destroyer 5.

    I don't think this bonus feels all that good, The Jackdaw is the only (current) tactical destroyer with a tank bonus on the ship per level bonuses. Perhaps a more niche (but useful) replacement could be used instead like an ECCM bonus or something? I think this is needed to balance it, but it is probably the worst ship per level bonus in the game, perhaps excluding the Helios' thermal drone per level bonus.

    Otherwise, I think you've done a great job with the preliminary balancing.


    An ECCM bonus? OOooooh, I actually like the sound of that, especially compared to a free small shield extender XD. Let's go real crazy, since it's a caldari platform, maybe do something with jams? The six mids would be super fun to play with, yet doing pure jams would make it a paper plane if shot at.
    Gorski Car
    #333 - 2015-05-18 20:15:16 UTC
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA FREE SSE BOIS

    Collect this post
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #334 - 2015-05-18 20:29:43 UTC
    The flat HP bonus feels superawkward and inconsistent. NOT YOU, they said. Everything on any ship scales, but this is wonky.

    If it currently goes out of line, reducing the base hp to some levels where additional extenders impact total HP stronger will both take the alpha resilence from local tanked ships and leave fits sacrificing slots for 2 MSEs mainly intact.

    Though 5% less flight time and 10% more missile speed per level would also help :D
    Saerin Korvalu
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #335 - 2015-05-18 20:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Saerin Korvalu
    Giving the Jackdaw a niche bonus would be a bit odd, so I'd vote against an ECCM bonus. The Jackdaw's damage is something I'm a bit worried about - it has a mediocre alpha with LMLs, but the DPS is far too underwhelming. I'd suggest falling back to the 5% damage buff previously shown in the statistics slide shown at fanfest. Sacrifice the tank buff and turn it into a nice hit-and-run destroyer.

    Edit: I'd also pop the velocity up to 185-190 m/s.
    Suitonia
    Order of the Red Kestrel
    #336 - 2015-05-18 20:35:46 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Yeah the 50 per level bonus is intentionally one of the weaker ship bonuses, to keep the rest of the package balanced. I am open to considering other bonuses like the ECCM one, and I'm interested in other ideas you folks have for bonuses that don't have a huge impact on the ship power level while remaining flavourful for Caldari.


    I really like the sensor strength bonus :)

    As an alternative, what about % reduction to the Signature Penalty of shield extenders per level. Would have some synergy with the bonus on the Defense Mode, although this bonus would only apply to fits using extenders so might hurt variety a bit.

    Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

    Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
    Sturm Gewehr
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #337 - 2015-05-18 20:38:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturm Gewehr
    I would rather have a "joke" (I call it flavor) bonus than an OP bonus.

    Pretty much any good bonus I can think of would make this ship really strong unless it came with nerfs to other parts of the kit to balance. The ship is still really strong without it.

    Some ideas are:


    • -1s reload per level (probably too strong)

    • Cap reduction to shield boosters per level

    • Cap reduction to propulsion modules per level

    • Shield recharge (could be great for PvE, need to make sure its not too strong for PvP)

    • Launcher Capacity bonus (as long as not exploitable)

    • Signature radius reduction bonus to shield extenders (could actually be stronger than 5% per level depending on strength)




    Even a lot of these are spooky looking.

    I think just about any meaningful resist, buffer, signature radius or active tank bonus in conjunction with 6 mids and defensive mode will just be too strong.
    Zand Vor
    OpSec.
    Wrong Hole.
    #338 - 2015-05-18 20:41:40 UTC
    Shield recharge bonus would be fun for both PvP and PvE at this ship size.

    Please fix wormhole combat sites: c1 20mil - c2 40 mil - c3 80 mil - c4 160 mil - c5 320 mil - c6 640 mil
    Saerin Korvalu
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #339 - 2015-05-18 20:43:23 UTC
    Sturm Gewehr wrote:
    I would rather have a "joke" (I call it flavor) bonus than an OP bonus.

    Pretty much any good bonus I can think of would make this ship really strong unless it came with nerfs to other parts of the kit to balance. The ship is still really strong without it.

    Some ideas are:


    • -1s reload per level (probably too strong)

    • Cap reduction to shield boosters per level

    • Cap reduction to propulsion modules per level

    • Shield recharge (could be great for PvE, need to make sure its not too strong for PvP)

    • Launcher Capacity bonus (as long as not exploitable)

    • Signature radius reduction bonus to shield extenders (could actually be stronger than 5% per level depending on strength)




    Even a lot of these are spooky looking.

    I think just about any meaningful resist, buffer, signature radius or active tank bonus in conjunction with 6 mids and defensive mode will just be too strong.


    A 10% or 15% bonus to shield recharge rate per level could be nice.
    Tiberian Deci
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #340 - 2015-05-18 20:45:47 UTC
    Hi Jackdaw,

    Sorry for pissing everyone off so much you got hit with the nerfbat into the ground before you were born.

    Sincerely,
    Your Older Brother, the Drake