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Over farming - broken mechanics - The Real issue in EVE PVE
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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#21 - 2015-05-15 03:11:19 UTC
Kaye Kaye wrote:


This game can be played for three months tops before I just delete all my toons and stuff, quit for 6 months, then sub again for 3 months... Rinse and repeat... just waiting for SC to actually become a game.


That more likely denotes a personal incompatibility with the game rather than a problem CCP needs to address. I've been playing full time since 2007 and with the exception of moving and a few internet outages/work related trips I've been playing EVE the entire time, mostly as a pve player (in null I exchanged my participation in pvp for access to the space for pve).

In other words, the game probably isn't for you, a more hands on game like SC is probably what you wanted all along.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#22 - 2015-05-15 11:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeremiah Saken
afkalt wrote:
Perhaps the actual problem is PvE is boring and making isk is a chore for many thus it is performed in the most efficient manner possible.

Exactly this.

I'll never understand why CCP don't want to make more money. They building PvP game for 10% players actually do strict PvP. If there was entertaining PvE EvE player base could be 10 time bigger. The game has problem, gamers getting older, new blood don't flow with wide stream, few new space games incoming. I watched another o7 show lately and something hit me. Those devs-players duels. This is EvE. Not "living breathing world", player driven market, industry etc. Strict PvP, buy cheap frig, some modules and jump into fight. We don't need whole background for that. Few systems, few stations, all modules seeded on market, voila "This is EvE". I know few devs that are engaged in PvP aspects of the game. I can't name one from PvE side...

Yes, we all playing game build around player vs player interaction. Most of players don't want to do it from combat side. There was many games in the past build around combat PvP, where are they now? EvE is not only one on the market now, competition is coming.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#23 - 2015-05-15 15:12:04 UTC
Not so sure how much of a problem it is when you consider the multiplicity involved.

Its now illegal to use ISBoxer to control all those ships for one.
PLEX are almost 900 mil so the 4 accounts you speak of need to generate 3 and a half billion isk a month.
While the completion times you speak of are low, you have to set it up each time.

All that considered its no as lucrative as Incursions or Wormholes from the math I see laid out here.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#24 - 2015-05-15 18:41:50 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Perhaps the actual problem is PvE is boring and making isk is a chore for many thus it is performed in the most efficient manner possible.

Exactly this.

I'll never understand why CCP don't want to make more money. They building PvP game for 10% players actually do strict PvP. If there was entertaining PvE EvE player base could be 10 time bigger. The game has problem, gamers getting older, new blood don't flow with wide stream, few new space games incoming. I watched another o7 show lately and something hit me. Those devs-players duels. This is EvE. Not "living breathing world", player driven market, industry etc. Strict PvP, buy cheap frig, some modules and jump into fight. We don't need whole background for that. Few systems, few stations, all modules seeded on market, voila "This is EvE". I know few devs that are engaged in PvP aspects of the game. I can't name one from PvE side...

Yes, we all playing game build around player vs player interaction. Most of players don't want to do it from combat side. There was many games in the past build around combat PvP, where are they now? EvE is not only one on the market now, competition is coming.


Posting in a stealth "Star Citizen is coming and will replace EVE" thread.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-05-15 18:55:20 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Efficiency isn't the problem, it's what you get for that efficiency that is the problem.

Smart Bomb Ratting isn't that bad though it is a bit of overfarming, because it takes place in dangerous space (risk of loss), takes expensive ships to do (even outside of sansha/blood raider space) and even then doesn't pay out better than other things.

I know, I used to smartbomb rat last year till I figured out that I'm risking almost a JUMP FREIGHTER worth of ships (Deapsapce/faction fit mach and 3 Fleet Phoons costing 7+ bil)) and using FOUR Characters (without even the benefit of Isboxer) and still making less isk per hour than if I simply pushed a freaking tech2 frigate sized ship around FW low sec

Same goes for lvl 5 mission blitzing. Done properly it takes 3 carriers and unless you are in one of the few areas where there are stations close together, it mean erecting POSes to hold 1 or even both "side system" carriers. That's another 8 bil minimum worth of 'set up' costs.

While high sec incursions don't pay as much as the above activities, (under peak conditions I've been in fleets that clocked 180 mil isk per hour, but that of course requires a tcrc wall and is rare), my incursion ship is only 2 bil, it only takes me 1 ship and 1 character as opposed to the multiple expensive ships and characters that the above 'solo' activities do, and they take place in space protected by CONCORD. The activities Anthar describe can be (and in my case, usually are) disrupted all the time, and those disruptions have to be included in any balance considerations. Disruptions happen in High Sec incursions and FW, but not nearly frequently enough to slow down that gravy train. I'm on that gravy train every night.


Fro me the "Hierarchy of Disfunction" looks like this:

-FW Missions (fix by making them not blitzable, add web towers)

-High Sec Incursions (lots of ideas, don't know which would be best thoguh)

-High Sec lvl 4 SOE and Thukker missions (SOE more than thukker, though there is a market for Nomad implants, fix by upping the LP costs of probes, probe launchers, virtue implants in SOe store) I do these semi afk with a Golem while running high sec incursions.

-Everything else


CCP needs to do a comprehensive, top down then bottom up review of PVE in this game, because EVe pve is so "Gamable" (pun intended) it's not even funny. PVE isn't just a way to make isk, ideally it should be a facilitator of content creation ie "you try to make isk via killing npcs or exploring, other people try to stop you either directly by shooting you or indirectly by beating you to the good loot or manipulating markets to make your loot worth less". As it is now, PVE in EVE is incredibly unbalanced and, if anything, a content KILLER.

Except in wormhole space, Wormhole PVe works right. max danger, max rewards, fights start when someone tries to attack someone else's PVE operation.


You know there are quite alot of people who play this game without a collection of high SP alts? Should they have to grind for a month to afford one advanced cruiser?

I don't think you want to lock out new/casual players by trying to make PvE a challenge for bittervets. People are always going to find a way to game the system for maximum farming, especially when they have a mob of high skilled alts and can multibox all of them.

As of right now I can't even access incursions with my main because FW has shot my standings with 2 factions, and my one alt is too low skilled to fly an incursion fit. Knowing what I know now about the game I could pay to train a dedicated incursion runner in 6 months or so but I'm not sure how much real world cash I want to inject into this game.

Balancing the game based on the assumption that everyone is a multiboxing bittervet seems like a bad idea. And most of the gripes about risk vs rewards are in relation to that crowd figuring out the most risk averse methods of multi-account ISK printing. Making everyone else play that game to generate enough income to do fun stuff is not going to solve the problem.

Hi I only use one account predominantly. I do not farm/station trade or even haul on another account. I enjoy being "Daerrol" in all aspects of the game. Using only a Scimitar and a Salvage Destroyer I was able to, working with other players who only had perhaps 10m SP, make around 400m in a 5 hour play session. There was 2 hours of PVP in that time too....

So you found a wh corp to let you tag along in a salvage dessie for 5 hours. You want a parade or something?
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#26 - 2015-05-17 16:32:51 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
None of us have enough information to have an informed opinion of what is being "over-farmed" or what the definition of "over-farmed" is or even should be.

You would have to be able to look at the game as a whole and this is simply not possible from the limited information available to us.

This ^^

If a player goes out and runs several hours worth of high sec missions everyday to earn the ISK to by the nice Marauder he wants is that "farming"? or is it simply trying to reach a goal?

If a nul player wants to go out and do sites to earn the ISK to buy another carrier so he can run better sites is that farming?

But why stop there, is it farming to want to earn the ISK so you can fly anything but the damned newbie ships the game gives you for free?

The whole basic problem with these anti-farming topics is how do you define farming?
I know a player that considers my mission running to be farming yet he thinks his participation in Incursions is not.
Likewise a real life friend also considers my missions as farming but he does not consider his fac war as farming.
Is ganking actually just another form of farming?
What about war decs, it seems they are just farming kills for a kill board so how do we address that form of farming in this game?
And what about station traders, perhaps they are the ultimate farmers in the entire game so what is to be done with them?

In the end we as players will find a way to "farm" the game to our benefit whether that is ISK, LP or kills on a kill board.
So in the end we all have to accept that "others" are farming the game in ways we do not like but that does not give us the right to eliminate their chosen way of enjoying the game we all pay for and play.
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2015-05-17 16:37:28 UTC
Guys making isk isn't hard.
Lady Tatanka
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-05-18 02:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Tatanka
Nothing mentioned in the OP is even an issue. SB ratting can only take place in -0.9's or below (like 2% of systems), and even then it only pays out ~*1.20 of afk drone ratting per account. If past changes (ESS, Incursions) are any indication, L5 missions have a surprisingly small impact on LP prices. They're also the only thing that makes Lowsec worth living in financially for an individual.

I'd advise CCP not to view the current situation as some nebulous state of over-extraction, but instead realize that they should seek to reconstruct PVE and industrial content in such a way wherein it leads to more sustainable conflict. I think they were on the right track with the interceptor changes in Nullsec (as well as the ESS, at least in spirit), but without a change to the underlying mechanics backing these activities, nothing will improve from the current situation.

So long as it's more profitable to run missions or anomalies in gimpy PVE fits than to fleet up and run higher risk, higher reward sites in PVP fit ships, the situation will continue as-is.
Anthar Thebess
#29 - 2015-05-18 11:00:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
It is not about efficiency , but about how this efficiency killing casual players.

For example :
Burner missions in nullsec.

Usual nullsec player , at least 3-4 accounts.
Typical Lvl 4 mission time : 10-15min , using those accounts, ( Non blitzing ) Lp payout : 8-15k lp

Burner mission time : 1min , using those accounts , lp payout 18-25k lp

When you also take into consideration that you get TONS of those burner missions then you will see that abusing burners by a horde of alts is good way to do make ISK , but at the same time time it is totally running isk value of LP.

The main reason why i consider that this is bad , because burner missions where meant to be 1vs1 , not 1 vs 5(and more).

The first burner mission that i made took over 3 minutes, but now ... just flood burner with alts and he will die instantly , and as all alts on grid have 5-6 burner missions "to do" you can just finish few more missions in the same system before moving to the other one , just to do the same.

Idea was good, but design .... become next "feature", especially that half of the missions you get from agents are those burner missions.


As for smartbombing , you don't need -0.9 system , you can do it also on forsaken hubs.
You don't include in your payout faction rats and escalations.

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-05-18 13:08:51 UTC
Someone doesn't know that LP and isk mission rewards are scaled against decline rate/time to complete.

If burners continue to pay thus, it is proof that your fears are unfounded - because when people do farm them as you describe, the LP payouts drop.

This is why the mission to get the quafe and recon missions pay so much less than the **** extravaganza ones, or other PITA missions like buzzkill.

HTH
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#31 - 2015-05-18 13:40:29 UTC
You say the efficiency is killing casual players.

None of the casual players I know need so much ISK to justify running the setups you talk about. I farm sites in nullsec all day everyday but I'm saving up for a titan.

Not today spaghetti.
Lady Tatanka
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-05-18 14:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Tatanka
Anthar Thebess wrote:
It is not about efficiency , but about how this efficiency killing casual players.
As for smartbombing , you don't need -0.9 system , you can do it also on forsaken hubs.
You don't include in your payout faction rats and escalations.

You don't need to include them in your calculations, as the chance for these increases linearly with the number of accounts you employ. In other words, an equivalent number of drone boats will net you the same amount of faction spawns and escalations. Additionally, running forsaken hubs is downright slower than using drone boats. If you think nullsec income is too high (lol) feel free to advocate nerfing it, but you'll never stop multiboxing 'farming' under anything remotely resembling the current mechanics (nor do we have an actual reason to do so, this game is a sandbox in spirit). We have no conclusive evidence that this so-called efficiency is 'killing' casual players.
Anthar Thebess
#33 - 2015-05-19 06:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
afkalt wrote:
Someone doesn't know that LP and isk mission rewards are scaled against decline rate/time to complete.

If burners continue to pay thus, it is proof that your fears are unfounded - because when people do farm them as you describe, the LP payouts drop.

This is why the mission to get the quafe and recon missions pay so much less than the **** extravaganza ones, or other PITA missions like buzzkill.

HTH


LP payouts are not dropping if you asking about this.



Lady Tatanka wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
It is not about efficiency , but about how this efficiency killing casual players.
As for smartbombing , you don't need -0.9 system , you can do it also on forsaken hubs.
You don't include in your payout faction rats and escalations.

You don't need to include them in your calculations, as the chance for these increases linearly with the number of accounts you employ. In other words, an equivalent number of drone boats will net you the same amount of faction spawns and escalations. Additionally, running forsaken hubs is downright slower than using drone boats. If you think nullsec income is too high (lol) feel free to advocate nerfing it, but you'll never stop multiboxing 'farming' under anything remotely resembling the current mechanics (nor do we have an actual reason to do so, this game is a sandbox in spirit). We have no conclusive evidence that this so-called efficiency is 'killing' casual players.


40-50mil per tick then add all the stuff you get from the MTU.
Important thing you need to use machariels , because of the warp bonus.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2015-05-19 06:45:07 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Someone doesn't know that LP and isk mission rewards are scaled against decline rate/time to complete.

If burners continue to pay thus, it is proof that your fears are unfounded - because when people do farm them as you describe, the LP payouts drop.

This is why the mission to get the quafe and recon missions pay so much less than the **** extravaganza ones, or other PITA missions like buzzkill.

HTH


LP payouts are not dropping if you asking about this.


Then either you're wrong in your assertions, CCP is lying, or there is a bug.

PIck one and only one.
Anthar Thebess
#35 - 2015-05-19 06:46:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
afkalt wrote:

Then either you're wrong in your assertions, CCP is lying, or there is a bug.

PIck one and only one.


Not bug ~feature.

Assuming 5 burner missions accepted
Killing a burner takes around 30s , but warping all alts to a gate and reloading guns takes 1minute, sometimes you need to change system. So just lets assume that this is 2 minutes per mission.

This leads to
5x2= 10minutes to complete all missions before returning to agents.

This way burner mission for system take 10minutes since the accepting to completing.

~120k LP earned.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2015-05-19 06:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
FFS.

The loyalty point reward is dynamic. Go search.

Here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4953360#post4953360


If they are stable at the levels they are it is because MOST people DONT run them and when they do they are slow and tough.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-05-19 08:06:33 UTC
afkalt wrote:
FFS.

The loyalty point reward is dynamic. Go search.

Here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4953360#post4953360


If they are stable at the levels they are it is because MOST people DONT run them and when they do they are slow and tough.

Need to say standard location of mission for me is 4-6 systems away. So usually i spend 90% of time travelling. This is Dodixie.
That's why 'no blitz' i guess.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Anthar Thebess
#38 - 2015-05-19 08:19:45 UTC
LP payout levels are are stable.
Fluctuation is around 250lp so almost none.

Yes the problem is probably traveling time , and time needed to run other missions.
20k+ LP for a 2min mission ( when you split travel time between other burner missions) just kills the LP value.

Running normal LVL 4 mission non blitzable takes around 15minutes. ( 2 battleships )
This give you 6-15k LP

Running burner mission takes ~2minutes (~5 T2/cheap faction frigates)
and it gives you 20-25k LP

1/4 - 1/3 of missions that are offered by agents are the burner missions.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#39 - 2015-05-19 14:21:07 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
LP payout levels are are stable.
Fluctuation is around 250lp so almost none.

Yes the problem is probably traveling time , and time needed to run other missions.
20k+ LP for a 2min mission ( when you split travel time between other burner missions) just kills the LP value.

Running normal LVL 4 mission non blitzable takes around 15minutes. ( 2 battleships )
This give you 6-15k LP

Running burner mission takes ~2minutes (~5 T2/cheap faction frigates)
and it gives you 20-25k LP

1/4 - 1/3 of missions that are offered by agents are the burner missions.



1/4 - 1/3 of missions are burner missions? Where did you get those stats? I for one have not seen this, and I wish it were so. Mission generation is random, and you will not always get a lot of burner missions. So this would not be a sustained activity, as you cannot guarantee you will get mission at a particular pace.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#40 - 2015-05-19 17:26:30 UTC
None of these activities makes as much ISK per hour as station trading at Jita. Station trading has no risk of losing a ship, and almost no risk of losing ISK.

In my opinion, any in-space activity, no matter how low the risk, is acceptable as long as it makes less ISK per hour than station trading.

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