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Get rid of Tiers
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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2011-12-15 10:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Ynot Eyob wrote:

Cyclone and Canes..

Its true i fly more Canes than Cyclones, but i disagree that the cane are so much better, for some purpose the cyclone are a hell lot better and to half the price.

15m, 30m and 54m (Cyclone, Hurricane, Tornado)


Calculate the prices after fitting t2 mods and t1 rigs and insurance payout. You'll find that the more costly hull is usually the cost effective one which is the opposite of what the tier system should supposedly achieve.

As for the cyclone, you're right. Some ships are worth flying despite belonging to a lower tier. But many more ships are NOT worth flying only because they belong to a lower tier. As a whole the system doesn't work. and I would argue that the Hurricane is still better than the Cyclone overall.
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2011-12-16 18:47:55 UTC
Weekend bump. Let's keep this discussion going.
Vaurion Infara
Doomheim
#123 - 2011-12-18 08:57:22 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
Weekend bump. Let's keep this discussion going.



Hah, I think the problem at this point is there's no real argument on the issue. Everyone agrees that this needs to happen. Pretty much every contrary opinion is along the lines of "___ tier 1 ship isn't so bad".

this is it
Jerzael
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2011-12-18 23:49:26 UTC
I does like this.
Vaurion Infara
Doomheim
#125 - 2011-12-20 04:11:52 UTC
To the top, for great justice. Get behind this, y'all damn biscuitheads.

this is it
mkjkgkvk Melkan
Doomheim
#126 - 2011-12-25 17:24:36 UTC
Fingers crossed this will be top of the todo list for crucible2 : the recrucibleating
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2011-12-25 17:34:16 UTC
mkjkgkvk Melkan wrote:
Fingers crossed this will be top of the todo list for crucible2 : the recrucibleating


Indeed. Now let's hope that CCP Unifex notice our cries for tiercide.
Just look at this thread!

Actually at this point any response from CCP would be appreciated so that at least we know they have noticed us.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#128 - 2011-12-25 18:01:04 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:


Actually at this point any response from CCP would be appreciated so that at least we know they have noticed us.


Seconded, +1ed, and all that. A simple "we heard you, we're discussing it internally" would be enough for now.

Overhaul Dscan!
hippity hopity
Leftfield Synergy
#129 - 2011-12-25 20:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: hippity hopity
mkjkgkvk Melkan wrote:
Getting rid of the teir system to add an extra 15+ ships that are currently not flown to the eve universe is probably the best thing CCP could spend their time on...

More variety more tactics more fun dont even need to spend the time designing new ships. Balancing might not go off perfect first time but who cares really. Worthy worthy thread

So much this its just wow!
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#130 - 2011-12-25 22:17:33 UTC
...can't believe some discussions move in circles for soooo long...

Kill the tiers, nerf / boost everything to the same, my ship doesn't have the fit the other does, this, that...

It's not Tiers that break ANYTHING...removing tiers = you want to remove variety. If you don't, then you wouldn't bother with tiers - its a number. i've never questioned myself : "hmm, should i buy frigate tier one or tier two? Tier 2 has to be better than 1 etc etc...
I read the stats, I pick what fits the role, or adapts closer to the role...done.

In some cases, higher tier ships make the lesser of their family obsolete: for example amarr BSs that look alike a lot (in role and skill set). Other races and classes are more straightforward in their roles, offering variety.

In the end, it's all opinions and noses and whatnot...everybody has his/her 2 cents of crap to throw around, and wiseguys with free time willing to argue in favor or against it.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#131 - 2011-12-25 22:31:28 UTC
Speaking of cricles, go back to page 1 and 2. Your point was addressed there.

Overhaul Dscan!
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#132 - 2011-12-26 05:58:04 UTC
Diomidis wrote:
...can't believe some discussions move in circles for soooo long...

Kill the tiers, nerf / boost everything to the same, my ship doesn't have the fit the other does, this, that...

It's not Tiers that break ANYTHING...removing tiers = you want to remove variety. If you don't, then you wouldn't bother with tiers - its a number. i've never questioned myself : "hmm, should i buy frigate tier one or tier two? Tier 2 has to be better than 1 etc etc...
I read the stats, I pick what fits the role, or adapts closer to the role...done.

In some cases, higher tier ships make the lesser of their family obsolete: for example amarr BSs that look alike a lot (in role and skill set). Other races and classes are more straightforward in their roles, offering variety.

In the end, it's all opinions and noses and whatnot...everybody has his/her 2 cents of crap to throw around, and wiseguys with free time willing to argue in favor or against it.



You don't get teh point I suggest reading around 1st-2nd pages.
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#133 - 2011-12-26 08:45:33 UTC
Again...you are playing with words...
I mean, get real - it's not tier 1 or 2 or 3 that makes a ship useful or not...
Brutix is different than Myrm, Ferox is different than Drake, Cyclone can do stuff a Cane definitely cannot...only the Prophecy is more or less obsolete due to the Harbinger...it doesn't matter if in the long run the ferox was "not as good" as the drake for missions and stuff...it's not a tier thing...it would be the same if the ferox was tier 2 and the drake 1, it's not the slot layout that changes that fact, nor the mineral cost etc...

You are asking for bringing usefulness to unused ships, especially frigates and cruisers which are badly designed and obsolete over the years...I am with you on that...that has nothing to do with tiers, as obviously other ship classes are way better balanced despite the tiers (most BCs and BSs).

Focusing on "tiers" and removing tiers etc is wrong as a point IMHO.

The goal is "add usefulness to useless ships, or accept them being useless and remove them from the game".

Do you want to cure the alcoholic, or make sure that the AA structure is 100% proof to protect their last name etc?

I say, if you can cure me, screw the typicalities.
"What you do speaks so loud i cannot hear what you say"...and ppl do stuff with "low tiers" that prove that tier lvl is irrelevant if the ship is not bad, and vice versa.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#134 - 2011-12-26 09:04:27 UTC
Tiericide is the great white whale and all PvP addicts are Cpt. Ahab. Smile

Would be awesome to have more options than "top tier .. always". Do it by either making all "top tier" (boring but easy'ish solution) or having clearly defined roles for every hull .. they sort of went that way with eWar, mining etc. hulls but in the process they gimped them through the tiers to make them unwanted in all but a few cases (Blackbirds Ahoy!).
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#135 - 2011-12-26 18:46:00 UTC
Tiers ARE the main point, although I fully admit not the only one (drones on Maller pls?). Look at the celestis, omen, inquisitor, breacher, atron, crucifier, etc. I could list perhaps 20. These are ships that have viable specialized roles, but are unusable due to low fitting space. Quoting myself from page 1.

Ines Tegator wrote:
+1. I support the elimination of tiering. It results in far too many hulls that are completely useless, even though they have a unique and viable concept.

Lets look at the t1 amarr frigates just cause I am most familiar with them.

Executioner: Very fast, cheap, low damage. Role as fast tackle. Unusable due to inadequate slots and PG/CPU
Crucifier: EWAR and fleet support. Unusable due to inadequate EHP and PG.
Inquisitor: High DPS with damage type selection. The only amarr frigate with these two traits. Unusable due to inadequate PG.
Punisher: Moderate DPS high tank. Has tier 3 fitting space. Coincidentally, is the only amarr t1 frig ever flown.

Notice a theme there? Lets get those alternate roles up and attractive, add variety and interest to the game and pvp tactics- all you gotta do is update the stupid tiering thing.

Overhaul Dscan!
Kn1v3s 999
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2011-12-28 04:26:44 UTC
-Tiers are only a word

-Fix the ships that are behind that word.

-Give em a role or make them usefull for a thing or more things (more ganky, more tanky, sig radius bonus, dunno, whatever) help variety. Right now unpopolar ships are used mostly for tricks or stuff like that (double web Celestis anyone?)

-What s the sense of having 26 frigate tech1 if only 5 ( i added the tristan and incursus) are worth to be flown? You can kill tiers tomorrow but you will have still only 5 ships... make higher tiers better is ok but still you have to left a niche to the lower tiers or they will simply not flown at all (as it is now)

- A good start will be to remove all that obsolete bonus to frigate and cruiser for mining. Anyone that want to mine will wait and will start in a Retriever, stop.

-Btw i think that the problem is too deep to be solved, CCP likes to add ridicously op ships and then nerf em into oblivion. For fix all what is needed, they will need to fix all that is broken (damp, bonuses etc). So is a lost case.
Erim Solfara
House of Solfara
#137 - 2011-12-30 17:53:05 UTC
'Tiers' are not a word, or a number, it's a design philosphy. We are arguing it's a flawed one, and should be changed, and I'm not going to paste my response to the inane 'OMG SHIPS ARE DIFFERENT, DON'T MAKE THEM ALL THE SAME' reply for the third time Diomidis, go find it a few pages back.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#138 - 2011-12-30 18:32:11 UTC
Tiericide= "Balance ships according to roles, not tiers of power or cost."

We've never said it was anything else, although perhaps not as quotably concise. Stop making assumptions and go read the first page, there is a lot of excellent info there.

Overhaul Dscan!
Erim Solfara
House of Solfara
#139 - 2011-12-30 19:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Erim Solfara
Ines I hope that wasn't a response to me.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#140 - 2011-12-31 22:26:43 UTC
Oxeu wrote:
Ehe I don't know about you, but I use tier 1 BC/BS a lot for allt he right reasons because each ship is good at doing something. (granted ferox is meh)

So I see no sense in your reasoning.


agreed.

useless? procurer.
underused? ferox.

Big difference. If they made every ship equally as useful there would simply be 12 of the same battlecruiser. it would be like BSG online with different skins.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it