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A sad state of affairs - The value of information

Author
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#1 - 2011-09-14 09:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciar Meara
Ever since I can remember gaming companies tried to entice potential customers to their products by giving them a taste of the finished product. This was done by producing screenshots, video's, interviews with developers and demo's. Its a practice that (I hope you agree) is still quite prevalent today.

However since CCP experienced our sea of discontent as so aptly portraited by Fiddlers Edge we have been left in the dark. We know that certain devs have good ideas, we know that they have asked for feedback on their plans and this is all well and good. However of the coming establishments, open area's and of the new additional CQ's we have seen nothing recent. Neither have we seen any kind of information regarding other plans in EVE At least not those of us who have not signed an NDA.

Sure CCP has done some interviews, saying all kinds of stuff. They say they are balancing every ship in the game. They also say they are going to redesign 0.0 over the coming 5 years, these changes span from introducing "smallholds" to making smaller alliances viable in 0.0 (with treaties I presume). These plans are needed and welcome but in which way will EVE benefit from all this discussion and planning in practice in the coming year? We have no idea, but the next expansion is only 3 months away.

Why does CCP continue to stealth about upcoming plans, ideas and new features. I am sure that many things need to be ironed out but on the other hand certain things and ideas must have progressed in such a way that they are scheduled for a release somewhere between now and early june? I dearly hope that for instance CQ's are more then halfway finished by now since the CSM got a preview of them in June. How are the new ship skins coming or the nerfing of the dramiel or the balancing of other ships?

What is stopping CCP to inform their clients, on the product that they subscribe to? Vague promises of changes just about on the horizon without context we allready have received. These in itself are not the problem, the lack of any other input to wet our appetites for new eve content is. We have not even seen a dedicated page to Incarna or the coming winter expansion. Nor have we seen or heard anything about what exactly the goal will be in the upcoming "establishments".

Last night several of my friends who are already unsubbed got a mail about how CCP invited them back to EVE assuring them that CCP had no plans to implement game breaking items in the NeX store. While this is one of the issues many people unsubbed over they did not address the issues completely nor did they offer any new or exciting changes to their potential new customers. Overal the mail was an unconvincing, almost sad attempt to tempt people back without any real changes. These are not my words, but the opinion of the people receiving the mail.

If we can make dev blogs about two new shirts and a skirt being released on the NeX, it couldn't hurt about making one about the upcoming new skins of the ships and the ability to paint them. I don't think that a devblog like that would be received badly by any Capsuleer and it is just one example out of many topics that could be discussed in a positive way.
This would benefit both CCP, their players and the bitter old vets of which I know I am one. Like I said before, inside every bitter vet there is a fanboy, screaming to get out and play. Give us a chance to release him/her.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

oematoema
The Muppet Show
#2 - 2011-09-14 09:51:40 UTC
Quote:
Statement on behalf of CCP from Arnar Hrafn Gylfason, Senior Producer for EVE Online.
Good communication and trust between CCP and the EVE community has always been a fundamental priority for CCP and will continue to be so.

Statement on behalf of CCP from Arnar Hrafn Gylfason, Senior Producer for EVE Online. Good communication and trust between CCP and the EVE community has always been a fundamental priority for CCP and will continue to be so.

Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
#3 - 2011-09-14 10:02:01 UTC
What is the point for CCP in making public statements - only to be agressed by an angry player spawn in the forums?

EVERYTHING that comes from CCP nowadays is taken badly.

EVERYTHING that is said or written by an employee of CCP is taken as a promise - and whined upon if it's no realized in time and at the exact form.

Why should they bother anymore?
Jita Alt666
#4 - 2011-09-14 10:04:49 UTC
Thebriwan wrote:
What is the point for CCP in making public statements - only to be agressed by an angry player spawn in the forums?

EVERYTHING that comes from CCP nowadays is taken badly.

EVERYTHING that is said or written by an employee of CCP is taken as a promise - and whined upon if it's no realized in time and at the exact form.

Why should they bother anymore?


Because they need to regain control of the dialogue.
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-09-14 10:17:49 UTC
Thebriwan wrote:
What is the point for CCP in making public statements - only to be agressed by an angry player spawn in the forums?

EVERYTHING that comes from CCP nowadays is taken badly.

EVERYTHING that is said or written by an employee of CCP is taken as a promise - and whined upon if it's no realized in time and at the exact form.

Why should they bother anymore?


I disagree.

Look at what Hilmar said in his e-mail: "Now is the time where we watch more of what our players do and less of what they say." I'm paraphrasing, of course. And while he made a point, that lip service is pointless, the rub is that CCP must also be held to that standard.

So far, they have failed spectacularly. The CSM and CCP want us to wait a few months to see results, when the results from the emergency summit in July haven't even manifested. In fact, CCP is still worried about the NeX and it's impact The fact everyone got 1,000 AUR and CCP is saying we'll get more when "certain milestones" are reached with this EVE is Real crap is proof of this.

CCP said in their little presentation that the Butterfly Effect has a profound effect on the server. It does. Look at how people protested in Jita and Amarr during the whole Monoclegate issue. A small group of people said no, pointed people to the threadnaught, and CCP's lack of a response snowballed into Jita and Amarr being pretty much uninhabitable.

The CSM has been told what they want to hear to shut them up. Period. CCP is playing the exact same game the CSM is playing, and they are playing it better because even the CSM is fooled. Not that it's that hard, considering who most of them are. But the fact of the matter is, CCP has not followed through. Yes, you will always have players calling BS on CCP. But until the company actually starts following through on the promises, those people have a leg to stand on.
Jita Alt666
#6 - 2011-09-14 10:21:21 UTC
Azelor Delaria wrote:
Thebriwan wrote:
What is the point for CCP in making public statements - only to be agressed by an angry player spawn in the forums?

EVERYTHING that comes from CCP nowadays is taken badly.

EVERYTHING that is said or written by an employee of CCP is taken as a promise - and whined upon if it's no realized in time and at the exact form.

Why should they bother anymore?


I disagree.

Look at what Hilmar said in his e-mail: "Now is the time where we watch more of what our players do and less of what they say." I'm paraphrasing, of course. And while he made a point, that lip service is pointless, the rub is that CCP must also be held to that standard.

So far, they have failed spectacularly. The CSM and CCP want us to wait a few months to see results, when the results from the emergency summit in July haven't even manifested. In fact, CCP is still worried about the NeX and it's impact The fact everyone got 1,000 AUR and CCP is saying we'll get more when "certain milestones" are reached with this EVE is Real crap is proof of this.

CCP said in their little presentation that the Butterfly Effect has a profound effect on the server. It does. Look at how people protested in Jita and Amarr during the whole Monoclegate issue. A small group of people said no, pointed people to the threadnaught, and CCP's lack of a response snowballed into Jita and Amarr being pretty much uninhabitable.

The CSM has been told what they want to hear to shut them up. Period. CCP is playing the exact same game the CSM is playing, and they are playing it better because even the CSM is fooled. Not that it's that hard, considering who most of them are. But the fact of the matter is, CCP has not followed through. Yes, you will always have players calling BS on CCP. But until the company actually starts following through on the promises, those people have a leg to stand on.


So you're saying that CCP need to regain control of the dialogue.
Barricade Dark
#7 - 2011-09-14 10:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Barricade Dark
Well unless you have been living under a rock, it should be clear that CCP is in a lose lose situation with its fan base. Every change they propose has fierce opposition simply because their is zero consensus in the community. To some the null sec changes are a blessing, to others its grounds for a divorce. There are examples like this throughout every single element of the game and the playerbase rips everything apart line by line, word by word. A CCP employee could come on the forums just to say hi and it will turn into a threadnaught of insanity in minutes with stuff like "don't you have work to do?" or "Why are you saying hi instead of fixing supercaps!"..

There is nothing they can say or do that will quell the Eve population, right now they are like an angry lynch mob that just needs to hang somebody, anybody!

The only thing to be said about this situation right now is that there are people at CCP and on the CSM that are still trying, despite the immense and begrudgingly unforgiving Eve community. The hate is so fierce right now that personally the best thing they can do is just let the game die a little. Let a hundred thousand players quit, let them whine and call it CCP's NGE and than when they are gone go back to making the game they want to make and let real fans of the game enjoy it. Its what happen to Star Wars Galaxies and to be frank while the post NGE days where a horrible mess, a year later a community emerged to support the game and kept the developers busy for 6 years. That may in fact what ends up happening to Eve and in a way it may be the best thing that could happen to the game at this point.
Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-09-14 10:51:15 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Azelor Delaria wrote:
Thebriwan wrote:
What is the point for CCP in making public statements - only to be agressed by an angry player spawn in the forums?

EVERYTHING that comes from CCP nowadays is taken badly.

EVERYTHING that is said or written by an employee of CCP is taken as a promise - and whined upon if it's no realized in time and at the exact form.

Why should they bother anymore?


I disagree.

Look at what Hilmar said in his e-mail: "Now is the time where we watch more of what our players do and less of what they say." I'm paraphrasing, of course. And while he made a point, that lip service is pointless, the rub is that CCP must also be held to that standard.

So far, they have failed spectacularly. The CSM and CCP want us to wait a few months to see results, when the results from the emergency summit in July haven't even manifested. In fact, CCP is still worried about the NeX and it's impact The fact everyone got 1,000 AUR and CCP is saying we'll get more when "certain milestones" are reached with this EVE is Real crap is proof of this.

CCP said in their little presentation that the Butterfly Effect has a profound effect on the server. It does. Look at how people protested in Jita and Amarr during the whole Monoclegate issue. A small group of people said no, pointed people to the threadnaught, and CCP's lack of a response snowballed into Jita and Amarr being pretty much uninhabitable.

The CSM has been told what they want to hear to shut them up. Period. CCP is playing the exact same game the CSM is playing, and they are playing it better because even the CSM is fooled. Not that it's that hard, considering who most of them are. But the fact of the matter is, CCP has not followed through. Yes, you will always have players calling BS on CCP. But until the company actually starts following through on the promises, those people have a leg to stand on.


So you're saying that CCP need to regain control of the dialogue.


Sir, please don't make my tl;dr into a succinct summary. Thank you.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2011-09-14 10:59:07 UTC
Barricade Dark wrote:
Well unless you have been living under a rock, it should be clear that CCP is in a lose lose situation with its fan base. Every change they propose has fierce opposition simply because their is zero consensus in the community. To some the null sec changes are a blessing, to others its grounds for a divorce. There are examples like this throughout every single element of the game and the playerbase rips everything apart line by line, word by word. A CCP employee could come on the forums just to say hi and it will turn into a threadnaught of insanity in minutes with stuff like "don't you have work to do?" or "Why are you saying hi instead of fixing supercaps!"..

There is nothing they can say or do that will quell the Eve population, right now they are like an angry lynch mob that just needs to hang somebody, anybody!

The only thing to be said about this situation right now is that there are people at CCP and on the CSM that are still trying, despite the immense and begrudgingly unforgiving Eve community. The hate is so fierce right now that personally the best thing they can do is just let the game die a little. Let a hundred thousand players quit, let them whine and call it CCP's NGE and than when they are gone go back to making the game they want to make and let real fans of the game enjoy it. Its what happen to Star Wars Galaxies and to be frank while the post NGE days where a horrible mess, a year later a community emerged to support the game and kept the developers busy for 6 years. That may in fact what ends up happening to Eve and in a way it may be the best thing that could happen to the game at this point.



im pretty sure if tehy rolled back to apoc, everyone would be happy. the expansions since have been total bullshit. ok incursions had some npc stuff, if you like that kinda thing. but pi and man barbie are a ******* joke

OMG when can i get a pic here

MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-09-14 11:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Smoking Blunts wrote:



im pretty sure if tehy rolled back to apoc, everyone would be happy. the expansions since have been total bullshit. ok incursions had some npc stuff, if you like that kinda thing. but pi and man barbie are a ******* joke


No. Part of a very loud vocal minority would be happy. Another loud vocal minority would be demanding CCP roll back to RMR or some other expansion.

My point is that nothing short of what each individual within this vocal minority wants will appease each individual. It's the very definition of a very loud vocal minority.

It is true that the squeeky wheel usually gets the grease. But sometimes is just best to replace the squeeky wheel. And I can only hope that CCP has come to that realization.

They supposedly "quit" the game and yet stick around antagonizing the rest of the community instead of just moving on to do something that makes them happy. To be honest, I have no sympathy for these sadistic bunches that are only happy in making others unhappy.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#11 - 2011-09-14 11:23:00 UTC
Well I got the same letter and really as there is no need the flame more but it was another slight CCP failure.

So I click it since I wanted to reactivate to get some stuff out of the character I forgot when cancelling.

get to the login screen and there is an error message saying I am not eligible to reactivation.

So they send me a letter apologizing bla bla we will get better and actually messed even that up Lol


Come on CCP you have a great game but really you need to get some real quality management practices and processes in place.
You wonder why half the player base is making fun of you this constant poor performance shabby coding bugs .ini the first take on new forums etc.

Even when you filter out all the Emo raging and take a closer look in the mirror and you try to be objective you really are doing a bad job as company.

Your own employees are posting about total lack of corporate discipline on career websites I think it is time that management should do something.

We can disagree on resource placement and it is your game after all but purely from a corporate perspective you are doing horrible job as a software developer house on quality even Microsoft or Turbine looks good in comparison.

Processes are good you have grown it is time to get corporate.


Anista Aivoras
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-09-14 11:29:41 UTC
Pretty new to this game myself, to be honest playing the game right now I don't see what the problem is really. All I see is a certain player base that wines like little children at any chance they have. And to be honest the last time I played an mmo was back when starwars galaxies first came out. Played for about a year. Even in those early years people acted this way. Really it's ok to complain and stuff but at this point I see a certaiin percent of you complainers just totally off your rocks!
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2011-09-14 11:34:11 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:



im pretty sure if tehy rolled back to apoc, everyone would be happy. the expansions since have been total bullshit. ok incursions had some npc stuff, if you like that kinda thing. but pi and man barbie are a ******* joke


No. Part of a very loud vocal minority would be happy. Another loud vocal minority would be demanding CCP roll back to RMR or some other expansion.

My point is that nothing short of what each individual within this vocal minority wants will appease each individual. It's the very definition of a very loud vocal minority.

It is true that the squeeky wheel usually gets the grease. But sometimes is just best to replace the squeeky wheel. And I can only hope that CCP has come to that realization.

They supposedly "quit" the game and yet stick around antagonizing the rest of the community instead of just moving on to do something that makes them happy. To be honest, I have no sympathy for these sadistic bunches that are only happy in making others unhappy.



looking at the online graph, most users online would link up nicely with apoc. so while getting RMR days back would be awesom. most poeple playing eve would be around about apoc.

the vocal minorty is vocal while the none vocal people are leaving. which one is better? i personnaly dont know.
if people are happy playing eve great. i like playing eve also, im just disapointed with the direction ccp seam to be taking recently. also im unhappy with the current drop in standard with tehe product they are rolling out. should i not say anything about a game i do enjoy and have played for 6 years that in my mind is circling the drain?

OMG when can i get a pic here

Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#14 - 2011-09-14 11:34:30 UTC
Anista Aivoras wrote:
Pretty new to this game myself, to be honest playing the game right now I don't see what the problem is really. All I see is a certain player base that wines like little children at any chance they have. And to be honest the last time I played an mmo was back when starwars galaxies first came out. Played for about a year. Even in those early years people acted this way. Really it's ok to complain and stuff but at this point I see a certaiin percent of you complainers just totally off your rocks!



I fully agree there is a lot of Emo raging that is going on that is not productive at all.

But on the other hand there is a lot of mess that they did as always in EVERYTHING the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Blink
Nyio
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-09-14 11:38:39 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-09-14 11:39:16 UTC
Smoking Blunts wrote:



looking at the online graph, most users online would link up nicely with apoc. so while getting RMR days back would be awesom. most poeple playing eve would be around about apoc.

the vocal minorty is vocal while the none vocal people are leaving. which one is better? i personnaly dont know.
if people are happy playing eve great. i like playing eve also, im just disapointed with the direction ccp seam to be taking recently. also im unhappy with the current drop in standard with tehe product they are rolling out. should i not say anything about a game i do enjoy and have played for 6 years that in my mind is circling the drain?


But you see, that's just it. The majority of players aren't quitting. The majority of players don't even read the forums or care about it. Sure, expansions bring some inconveniences from time to time to some. But the game remains enjoyable. But the vocal minority only has one gear. And that gear is "my way or no way".

That a few players with a gazillion accounts have quit does not invalidate my post.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2011-09-14 11:45:15 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:



looking at the online graph, most users online would link up nicely with apoc. so while getting RMR days back would be awesom. most poeple playing eve would be around about apoc.

the vocal minorty is vocal while the none vocal people are leaving. which one is better? i personnaly dont know.
if people are happy playing eve great. i like playing eve also, im just disapointed with the direction ccp seam to be taking recently. also im unhappy with the current drop in standard with tehe product they are rolling out. should i not say anything about a game i do enjoy and have played for 6 years that in my mind is circling the drain?


But you see, that's just it. The majority of players aren't quitting. The majority of players don't even read the forums or care about it. Sure, expansions bring some inconveniences from time to time to some. But the game remains enjoyable. But the vocal minority only has one gear. And that gear is "my way or no way".

That a few players with a gazillion accounts have quit does not invalidate my post.



its funny you say that, you know how many leaving eve mails and forum posts ive seen on internal alliance and corp forums(note i have 7 accounts and have been in many alliances and corps in the last few months). these are people that dont come to the eve forums ever, the majority of these people are older players 03's through 08's that have just had enough of the bullshit thats being pushed out. so while i respect you view point. its not one i or the online figures share.

OMG when can i get a pic here

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#18 - 2011-09-14 12:00:17 UTC
Barricade Dark wrote:
Well unless you have been living under a rock, it should be clear that CCP is in a lose lose situation with its fan base. Every change they propose has fierce opposition simply because their is zero consensus in the community.
They're in a lose lose situation because they have chosen to ignore EVE. The reason they get shouted down at every opportunity is because the community unconsciously feel that there is a very strict limitation to the resources that are being allocated towards their favourite spaceship game, so any proposal CCP makes means that your pet peeve is not being addressed any time soon.

If they demonstrated that, yes, they do allocate sufficient resources to EVE, and yes, they do work their way through the pile of stuff that needs to be addressed, then people will stop seeing any suggestion as another case of being skipped over indefinitely.

Take the recent 0.0-revamp threads — they got a resounding, and almost entirely positive and constructive response because they gave the air of “yes, we're actually going to put some effort into this.” The fact that there were multiple threads alone was enough to give this impression.
Quote:
The only thing to be said about this situation right now is that there are people at CCP and on the CSM that are still trying, despite the immense and begrudgingly unforgiving Eve community. The hate is so fierce right now that personally the best thing they can do is just let the game die a little.
The best thing they can do right now is put some focus back onto EVE and actually start throwing more than a few scattershot maybe-fixes in its general direction. The problem right now is that they are making the game they want to make… and it's not EVE.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#19 - 2011-09-14 12:04:35 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:



looking at the online graph, most users online would link up nicely with apoc. so while getting RMR days back would be awesom. most poeple playing eve would be around about apoc.

the vocal minorty is vocal while the none vocal people are leaving. which one is better? i personnaly dont know.
if people are happy playing eve great. i like playing eve also, im just disapointed with the direction ccp seam to be taking recently. also im unhappy with the current drop in standard with tehe product they are rolling out. should i not say anything about a game i do enjoy and have played for 6 years that in my mind is circling the drain?


But you see, that's just it. The majority of players aren't quitting. The majority of players don't even read the forums or care about it. Sure, expansions bring some inconveniences from time to time to some. But the game remains enjoyable. But the vocal minority only has one gear. And that gear is "my way or no way".

That a few players with a gazillion accounts have quit does not invalidate my post.


No it does not it is the downward trend of the concurrent active player counts that does. You can do even year to year comparison but it is going down.

When was the last time the record was broken.




Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-09-14 12:13:13 UTC
EVE has been out for a long time, are big changes really unexpected? Does anyone want a continuing game that never changes?

Do you think changes should be limited to just new ships and ajustments of existing attributes for everything?

Take SM 3 for instance. Shader Model 3 came out in 2004. CCP Implemeted it in June 2011. Yes it slowed the game down but it's a pretty obvious technology to implement and use.

What is the benifit of this? EVE looks prettier. EVE is a beautiful game to watch. Ships have great detail, the new turrets are amazing. Now SM 3 is introduced and is the new graphics base, i would expect many more things to happen to enhance the visual appeal of EVE.

Since i started playing in 2009 i was told that EVE runs on some pretty sloppy coding that was a PITA to work with. I don't know if that is right or not, but from what i know, all transactions were running on Python with an incredibly annoying global lock. Now that that has evolved into CarbonIO, it will also have many good flow on effects.

We had a big heap of good/big expansions recently: Aprocrypha with it's new WHs, scanning and T3's, Dominion with big Sov changes and SC buff, Incursion with PI and the introduction of the Sansha revival, and Incarnia with Carbon IO, SM 3, turrets, NeX, Incursions etc.

With those revamps done, do you think bad things will happen or something?

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062

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