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A solution to Fleet ECM.

Author
Wynta
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-05-13 10:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Wynta
ECM on a scale larger than the small/micro gang is rare, if not nonexistent. The boats designed and bonused for ECM suffer major flaw as a result of the hull themselves as well as flaws in how ECM works.

Many find ECM to be obnoxious, especially in small gang play where one or two ECM boats on one side of an otherwise even fight can completely devastate the enemy fleet. But this kind of dominance does not extend to large scale fights due to the fact that one cannot ECM tank 300 man fights, and these boats do not have the slot layout that can even fit a tank even remotely capable of surviving any of these fights.

So the question becomes how can we change ECM to where it can survive larger fleets but at the same time not become laughably overpowered in small gangs.

This is my proposal...

1. Make ECM a high slot module with similar fitting requirements.
2. Limit each ship to 1 ECM modules.
3. Allow the fitting of additional ECM modules with Role or Level Bonuses on ECM boats.
4. Shift the layouts of ECM boats to allow fitting a modest shield tank and prop mod.

These 3 are the major changes that I will go into the most. Some other changes are...

1. Remove SDA's and give a moderate buff to default Jammer Strength and Range.
2. Convert Racial Jammers into Racial Scripts that are loaded into Multispectrum Jammer, with a 1 minute load time.
  • Or alternatively, remove Racial Jammers and have multiple ECM module type for weapons systems: Turret/Missile/Drone/Rep, where on a successful jam a set number or percentage of turrets/drones/launchers/repairers become unusable.

  • Back to the Top

    The main problem with ECM boats is that for every 2.5 ECM modules you get an effective 1 Jam. So unlike TP/Web/Scram that give you the guaranteed effect so long as you are in range, ECM require multiple modules just to have an effect. In addition with TP/Web having multiple on a single ship has an stacking effectiveness, whereas having multiple ECM on a single ship only increase jam chance, not duration or any other metric that makes a successful jam "better."

    Because of the above ineffectiveness, ECM boats require all their Mids, minus a Prop Mod, to be fitted into ECM modules. And those ECM modules need the Lows to be fitted with SDA's to actually be effective. This leaves no room for a shield or an armor tank, but plenty of room in the high slots for launchers and guns that in 90% of scenarios will never be used to any effective degree. For an ECM boat, the ECM itself is the weapon.

    Moving ECM to the High slot would free up the Mid Slot for a shield tank and prop mode, and the lows could remain for DCU+SDAs.

    Now with ECM being a high slot module people will say that it can be abused by the boats that have multiple utility highs. And the beauty is that ECM is already balanced around being ****** on non-bonused ships. A T2 racial jammer on a non-bonused ship grants at most a 50% chance to jam a T1 frigate so having them as a utility high will not all of a sudden see it as the best utility high, but probably the opposite. For ships with 1 Utility high a nuet or SB would probably give more bang than a single ECM. But just in case, like warfare links, there could be a limit to one per ship.

    With this limit ECM boats would need some way to fit more than one. And this can be a role bonus or a level bonus.
  • The Griffin and Kistune could have: "Role: Can fit 3 additional ECM modules" bringing their total up to their current 4.
  • The Blackbird could have "Role: Can fit 4 additional ECM modules" bringing their total up to their current 5.
  • The Rook and Falcon could have Recon Ship bonus of "Can fit one additional ECM module per level" bringing both theirs to 6
  • The Tengu could have a Role bonus on both the Offensive/Engineering SS that combined bring its total to 5.
  • The Scorpion/Wifow could have either bonus or both bringing their total to 7

  • With the change to needing many highslot for ECM modules, these ECM boats would need far less mids. Meaning that ECM boats will need a layout overhaul.

    Each ship should have 1 Mid for Prop Mod plus...

    Griffin: 1 Tank Mid
    Kitsune: 2 Tank Mid (With T2 Resists)
    Blackbird: 3 Tank Mid
    Rook: 3 Tank Mid (With HAC resists)
    Falcon: 3 Tank Mid (with current Resists)
    Tengu: Varies
    Scorpion: 5 Tank Mid
    Widow: 6 Tank Mid

    With the above amount of mids would not grant them HAC level tanks but enough to were they can hold on field with good logi. The Mids they do lose will be shifted into High Slots were most of these boats will see similar Launchers/Hardpoints but will not have the Max Launchers + Max ECM, which would give the pilot the choice between having some teeth or being a full utility boat; without any weapons plus max ECM each boat should have 1 Utility High and in the Falcons case 2.

    Secondary Points

    Why Racial Jammers should be converted to Scripts.

    Currently having good intel and being able to swap out your useless jams to useful ones is good. But there becomes the issue about having to swap them out with a mobile depot and carrying a bunch of jammers in your cargo hold. It would be much simpler to have them as a loaded script that could change a Multi-Jam into a Racial Jam. Now to balance around this convenience the time it took to do it with a depot should still come into account. Giving a 60-90 second load time would provide you with the tactical advantage of having intel on the enemy fleet as well as giving you a disadvantage for not having that intel. In addition you could change your jams mid fight at the cost of not having that jam available. This change could be in response to another fleet comp arriving on field or a specific threat to you or your fleet that needs to be jammed.
    Iris Bravemount
    Golden Grinding Gears
    #2 - 2015-05-13 14:02:57 UTC
    Nope.

    This would make ECM completely OP in smaller gangs.

    Your ECM doesn't work in big fights? Bring something that does.

    You really want ECM in big fights? Use ECM Bursts, projected ECM bursts and ECM (lockbreaker) Bombs.

    "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

    Lan Wang
    Knights of the Posing Meat
    #3 - 2015-05-13 14:16:03 UTC
    think ecm should just be removed altogether

    Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

    Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

    Zimmer Jones
    Lightspeed Enterprises
    Goonswarm Federation
    #4 - 2015-05-13 14:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
    stuff I support and stuff I dont, this a pretty fun post.

    Stuff I can definitely support:

    the single type multispectral jammer with scripts

    The movement of ecm to high slots


    Stuff I think needs work:

    Ewar affecting drones

    Tracking damping and ecm have uses that could directly translate, but for neuts and no's.
    I would suggest that ewar's effect on drone boats is much the same: break locks, but an add-ons:
    The drones move to passive mode, not targeting or firing on targets, and assignments to other ships are canceled.

    For neuts and nos, I propose that all drone buff mods cycle and use reasonable amounts of cap.

    Still, definitely supported +1

    Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #5 - 2015-05-13 16:02:30 UTC
    Wynta wrote:
    [...]Second, make racial scripts that can be loaded into the jammer that bring them up to their current strength and range.
    Third, make the reload time on those scripts long.[...]


    First: Yes, I deleted part of the quoted post because I want to reply to that particular part.

    - A W E S O M E -

    If it would take a minute to switch the script, that'd be amazing. Never again is the most vital decision *But did I fit the correct jams*, but rather what you do with your jams. ASB-fits run their charges, bounce and return to the fight with fresh charges, ECM behaving similar would be great imo.

    ECM mechanics are as unattractive as it could be in smaller gangs, but this would be a step forward.







    Arguably it might be worth checking again with recently acquired fresh know-how, where each module should belong regarding high/mid/low. Recons/ewar cruisers got a number of high slots, yet curse/pilgrim are the only ones actually using them.

    MP2008
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #6 - 2015-05-13 16:10:22 UTC
    A lot of ECM Boats fit an armor tank with a plate.

    Oh you mean work your own fit, I forgot I was talking to goonswarm you just follow alliance doctrines lolz.
    Lloyd Roses
    Artificial Memories
    #7 - 2015-05-13 16:24:42 UTC
    MP2008 wrote:
    A lot of ECM Boats fit an armor tank with a plate.

    Oh you mean work your own fit, I forgot I was talking to goonswarm you just follow alliance doctrines lolz.


    *A plate* on its own is a long way from *a tank*. To state the point of discussion: Compare a Celestis and a Blackbird.
    Zan Shiro
    Alternative Enterprises
    #8 - 2015-05-14 00:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
    Iris Bravemount wrote:
    Nope.

    This would make ECM completely OP in smaller gangs.

    Your ECM doesn't work in big fights? Bring something that does.

    You really want ECM in big fights? Use ECM Bursts, projected ECM bursts and ECM (lockbreaker) Bombs.



    This basically.


    Big fleet to resolve racials can drop depots/carrier refit. Or eyes in the sky instead of saying heaps are coming in since heaps is so helpful is say at least heaps minmatar and amarr and some gallente and caldari. Now the jammers know a split ladar radar setup could be in order.


    Tank not even an issue here really. Difference between a mugging style skirmish roam (where generally you find targets of equal or lesser numbers than roam) and large fleet ops is the dps and/or alpha is there in bulk to (quickly) kill the jammer in large fleet setup.

    This why one of the best uses of scorpion I have seen is the suicide ecm burst "bomber". FLy in, pop burst, try to warp out and if you clear....do it again. Till you or fleet is dead basically. If lucky you hop in and out a few times to mess up the day. vice jamming say 6 ships...and their 100 other friends have you locked and your pending doom is certain.

    If not instapop style damn near close to it Have it tanky...jammers are instant primary and will die anyway by what is not jammed. Even a properly shield tanked scorpion/widow is not exactly a floating fortress. All tank does is make skirmish harder as that scorpion/falcon/etc is even harder to kill (as like said above we can assume the roam is opting to go for targets of equal numbers or less preferred).
    Wynta
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #9 - 2015-05-14 04:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Wynta
    Iris Bravemount wrote:
    Nope.

    This would make ECM completely OP in smaller gangs.

    Your ECM doesn't work in big fights? Bring something that does.

    You really want ECM in big fights? Use ECM Bursts, projected ECM bursts and ECM (lockbreaker) Bombs.


    Ok how would this make ECM OP in small gangs...

    Right now you get 2 EAF or 2 Falcons and you use the ECM for tank. This isnt possible for large fleet engagements because there will be holes that can easily alpha you. Also what are you classifying as small gang. EWAR ships can still be jammed. If your saying it would be OP if one gang brought EWAR and the other gang didn't that is not overpowered, that is prepared.

    Lockbreakers and ECM Bursts have the problem on only breaking locks, they don't jam. If they did than that would be fine.

    The other EWAR works in big fights for two reasons, they are able to use all their mids for EWAR while still using all their lows for tank. ECM damn near requires their lows for decent jams. Meaning they either bring subdecent jams and a armor tank or subdecent tank and good jams. Now this would where people would argue that this conundrum is where the balance lies, and this is where we look at the fact that the balance lies in ECCM and Remote ECCM, and a naturally scaling sensor strength.

    In addition it would be a nerf to small gangs, as the multispectrum would be weaker than it is now, and you would be vulnerable while switching to racial jams. Giving the unprepared or uninformed ECM pilot a huge disadvantage.
    Wynta
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #10 - 2015-05-14 04:46:12 UTC
    MP2008 wrote:
    A lot of ECM Boats fit an armor tank with a plate.

    Oh you mean work your own fit, I forgot I was talking to goonswarm you just follow alliance doctrines lolz.


    Your right, you can use your limited low slots for armor tank. But ECM's viability at the cruiser level is determined by using those limited lows for SDA to actually be able to jam.

    And there is a reason why I haven't seen any null alliances use ECM as a EWAR option and that is because it can't function on that level. The ECM Tengu is really the only ECM boat that can function in a Fleet environment because it can fit a competent tank and have a some what decent jam strength due to having access to more low and rig slots.

    You could also give ECM modules the warfare link /bomb launcher treatment and limit all non-bonused ships to one, and have EAF, Recon, Subsystem, and Role bonus give access to an additional one per level or flat amount. So any ship can fit 1 non-bonused ECM in the high slot, but the...

    Kitsune would get a role bonus like "Can fit 3 additional ECM module"

    Griffin and Blackbird would get a role bonus for a flat 2/4 respectively
    The Falcon could get their Cloak bonus shifted to a role bonus and have it replaced with "Can fit 1 additional ECM module"
    The Rook could get their Missile velocity bonus shifted to "Can fit 1 additional ECM module"
    The Tengu's ECM Offensive Subsystem could grant a flat 3 additional with the Electronic giving 1 in addtion to the current effects.
    The Scorpion could be get a per level bonus, and the Widow would get per level and a role bonus for additionals.
    Making the Griffin and Blackbirds having 3/4 ECMs respectively, Kitsune @ 4, the Falcon/Rook would have 6 Max, the Tengu would have 5.

    The Scorpion by some means would get 5, and the Widow would get 7.

    FireFrenzy
    Cynosural Samurai
    #11 - 2015-05-14 06:17:41 UTC
    What exactly is wrong with armor scorpions again? I have used them extensively in (for wormholes and my corp at the time) decent sized fights. Nothing on nullsec block war i'll grant you but it wasnt 4 dudes against 5 dudes on some random gate somewhere...
    Wynta
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #12 - 2015-05-14 06:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Wynta
    FireFrenzy wrote:
    What exactly is wrong with armor scorpions again? I have used them extensively in (for wormholes and my corp at the time) decent sized fights. Nothing on nullsec block war i'll grant you but it wasnt 4 dudes against 5 dudes on some random gate somewhere...


    Nothing is wrong with armor scorpion, hell ECM on BS and the Tengu are usable because they get the lows and rig slot to mount a capable tank and ECM strength.

    The problem comes because that isnt possible on the cruiser down hulls that would be either useless with a tank or dead with good jams.

    Besides ECM is put on shield boats but takes all the shield slots. Moving ECM out of tank slots would allow ECM to be armor or shield tanked and give it a tank that could sustain in fleet fights. My suggestion in the OP and in a couple post up are ways to shift ECM to the high slots but not have it be overpowered.
    Zan Shiro
    Alternative Enterprises
    #13 - 2015-05-14 06:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
    FireFrenzy wrote:
    What exactly is wrong with armor scorpions again? I have used them extensively in (for wormholes and my corp at the time) decent sized fights. Nothing on nullsec block war i'll grant you but it wasnt 4 dudes against 5 dudes on some random gate somewhere...



    You probably have nice logi who hooked you up. When I did this I was always nice to the logi anyway. goes a long way to not dying if they actually like you for maybe better service lol. I would fit remote eccm even for one lucky logi. And remote rep with cap injection to half ass spider rep if needed.


    Beyond that large fights can be just (bad) luck of primary draw really. Shield or armour enough people want you dead, you die lol. But this for any ship really. Scorp just tends to be ship you move up the primary list.


    He goes on about other e-wars....their effect not as debilitating as ECM imo. Lower primary value the result. I can counter damps and such with flying/fit(edit :more readily than ecm with say sensor backup array and eccm for 2 mods used up). TP iffy with sig ofc....but sigs affects are just one piece of damage/tracking calcs. Damps good for range control but if I wanted to be up close we could say well you have me right where I wanted to be anyway lol. Basically if I had an arazu or falcon in reach and not hitting me yet....falcon would die first. And if in range next best target after that rather than hump it to the arazu.
    Wynta
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #14 - 2015-05-15 06:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Wynta
    Zan Shiro wrote:
    FireFrenzy wrote:
    What exactly is wrong with armor scorpions again? I have used them extensively in (for wormholes and my corp at the time) decent sized fights. Nothing on nullsec block war i'll grant you but it wasnt 4 dudes against 5 dudes on some random gate somewhere...



    You probably have nice logi who hooked you up. When I did this I was always nice to the logi anyway. goes a long way to not dying if they actually like you for maybe better service lol. I would fit remote eccm even for one lucky logi. And remote rep with cap injection to half ass spider rep if needed.


    Beyond that large fights can be just (bad) luck of primary draw really. Shield or armour enough people want you dead, you die lol. But this for any ship really. Scorp just tends to be ship you move up the primary list.


    He goes on about other e-wars....their effect not as debilitating as ECM imo. Lower primary value the result. I can counter damps and such with flying/fit(edit :more readily than ecm with say sensor backup array and eccm for 2 mods used up). TP iffy with sig ofc....but sigs affects are just one piece of damage/tracking calcs. Damps good for range control but if I wanted to be up close we could say well you have me right where I wanted to be anyway lol. Basically if I had an arazu or falcon in reach and not hitting me yet....falcon would die first. And if in range next best target after that rather than hump it to the arazu.


    Here is the problem, you need buffer for Logi to be able to save you, and ECM require both mids and lows to be effective. Besides the Tengu and Scorpion there isn't enough lows for a decent armor tank or enough mids for both a shield and decent ECM.

    Other EWAR run into this problem to a lesser extent, TP/Webs are offensive EWAR that really only require 1 or 2 per ship and they can still fit a good armor or shield tank, the TP only really needs 1-2 because you will more than likely only be painting primary and secondary targets.

    The Sensor Damp and Tracking Disrupt modules need less modules to be effective as it is a 100% hit chance in range, does not require lows to be fully effective, and the ships that are bonused for it have slot config for a great tank.

    I am saying that moving ECM to the Highs is one of the few solutions besides completely reworking it that would allow for it to be used in large fleet engagements.

    The changes may actually nerf it for small gangs which is nice, and if it doesnt, would not provide a buff to it at all.

    Small gang fights usually occur while roaming and if you do not have advance notice on what you will be fighting you can't change scripts until the fight already starts. This gives the other side 1 minute to get you off the field. If you have advanced notice then your preparation deserves some reward.
    Arya Regnar
    Darwins Right Hand
    #15 - 2015-05-15 09:57:09 UTC
    Lan Wang wrote:
    think ecm should just be removed altogether

    Nuuuuuuuuuuuh.
    It definitely needs to stay for logi interruption.

    ECM to prevent dps is bad mechanic but jamming logis is something PVP definitely needs.

    EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

    Lan Wang
    Knights of the Posing Meat
    #16 - 2015-05-15 10:01:29 UTC
    Arya Regnar wrote:
    Lan Wang wrote:
    think ecm should just be removed altogether

    Nuuuuuuuuuuuh.
    It definitely needs to stay for logi interruption.

    ECM to prevent dps is bad mechanic but jamming logis is something PVP definitely needs.


    nah damps work fine for this, ecm is just bad, reducing someone to being able to do nothing and literally sit and watch yourself die is a bad mechanic, dont get me wrong i love my rook but its a real ****head ship

    Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

    Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

    Wynta
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #17 - 2015-05-15 12:08:49 UTC
    Lan Wang wrote:
    Arya Regnar wrote:
    Lan Wang wrote:
    think ecm should just be removed altogether

    Nuuuuuuuuuuuh.
    It definitely needs to stay for logi interruption.

    ECM to prevent dps is bad mechanic but jamming logis is something PVP definitely needs.


    nah damps work fine for this, ecm is just bad, reducing someone to being able to do nothing and literally sit and watch yourself die is a bad mechanic, dont get me wrong i love my rook but its a real ****head ship


    What would the alternative be for Caldari EWAR. I mean you could take TP's from Min and leave them as web boats. Or a complete rework of ECM, but off the top of my head I can't think of what would replace it besides may anti drone/bomb defender missile ships, with a defender missile rework but ECM could be fine if the cycles where shorter and failed a bit more
    Grorious Reader
    Mongorian Horde
    #18 - 2015-05-15 12:54:12 UTC
    Lan Wang wrote:
    ...reducing someone to being able to do nothing and literally sit and watch yourself die is a bad mechanic,

    Welcome to the situation every miner and industrialist is in every time they get attacked. My cup, it runith over with tears.

    In all seriousness, I think ECM modules should be high slots, like neuts. That way you're sacrificing your own damage output to take enemy damage/logi off the field, rather than sacrificing your survivability. And I like the idea of ECM modules being multispectral with racial scripts, as long as the scripts take like 60 seconds to reload.
    Iris Bravemount
    Golden Grinding Gears
    #19 - 2015-05-15 13:05:21 UTC
    Wynta wrote:
    Iris Bravemount wrote:
    Nope.

    This would make ECM completely OP in smaller gangs.

    Your ECM doesn't work in big fights? Bring something that does.

    You really want ECM in big fights? Use ECM Bursts, projected ECM bursts and ECM (lockbreaker) Bombs.


    Ok how would this make ECM OP in small gangs...


    In small gangs jams are so effective, you only get short windows of unhindered fire. If the ECM boat can mount a regular cruiser tank on top of the jammers, it would basically be unkillable.

    You are yourself quoting the Scorpion and Tengu as viable in larger engagements. So what exactly is your point here? In small engagements you pick the cheap frigate and cruiser sized jammers and accept that they die if you leave the ennemy the opportunity to take a few shots at them. If you need more robust jamming boats, you need to bring a BS or T3.

    "I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

    Leto Aramaus
    Black Fox Marauders
    Pen Is Out
    #20 - 2015-05-15 13:21:49 UTC
    Yes to ECM in high slots.

    No to most of the rest.
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