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What if cynos couldn't be lit within 10 kilometers of a station?

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Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#141 - 2015-05-14 15:22:32 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
You have just described a pretty straightforward and natural progression. The first people to the frontier are the ones who want quick riches and don't mind getting killed by the natives. A few years later, you have civilization and government control from sea to shining sea.

Do you really expect any system to remain in the "gold rush" "stake claiming" and "slaughtering natives" stage forever?

Making the game more painful to play will not bring back the frontier. Game mechanics did not bring the empires - with all their bureaucracy and organization - to Eve. Players did. Players organized and imposed order on the universe - because those who could not organize effectively did not survive. If you make the game more painful to play, the best organized groups will still find ways around it. What groups do you think can best organize 1000 players to conduct weekly or monthly freighter move operations? The same ones who can currently control enough space to move their ships in relative safely today.

Honestly, you sound like someone bitching about the pernicious effects of the Transcontinental Railroad in the Internet Age.

I do not envy CCP as they attempt to balance between fighting stagnation in Eve and trying to keep their current players happy. If you can figure out a way to roll back Eve's clock 10 years without killing Eve, I'm sure there is a job for you in Iceland.


Tell the people who worked on the moon landing or the people who dove down to the bottom of the Marianas Trench or the first people to visit the north or south poles or Leif Ericson (think about that one) or . . . hey, tell "the natives" that they went there for quick riches.
Maybe YOU went to null for quick riches, but most people I've met go there to PLAY (as if this thread was even about null, specifically).

Clearly, your mind has become infected by some sort of fatalistic, defeatist philosophy that prevents you from seeing a bright future for the game (or civilization), but you, YOURSELF, have not given up yet, because here you are posting about the game, still. You have to decide what you believe. You have to choose. Is it a bright future or a bleak future? I hope you make a heroic choice.

Practically, I will say it again. Even a regular, Tech I freighter can be moved safely, even through hostile space. I've helped to do it. I've see it done. Your claim that it takes a thousand players is either dishonest or idiotic. Ten 1-month old Griffin pilots could secure a freighter most of the time. How much moreso a jump freighter that doesn't even have to use gates? How much moreso with 50 Rook pilots?
This is a not a single player game.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2015-05-14 15:54:36 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
And how many of those 51 pilots are having fun?

√0 is my bet.

I can only imagine it is the most soul destroying thing in eve, after guarding ice miners.

Furthermore, if you're going to be asinine about, what are those escorts going to do against a titan drive by?

All of the game aspects have moved on since the freighter escort days, not just one or two.

Also, how do you propose you escort a jump ship? Add a bridging jumping titan to the mix? Have a double fleet and leap frog? Log it out in the middle whilst the subcaps catch up?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#143 - 2015-05-14 17:07:56 UTC
afkalt wrote:
And how many of those 51 pilots are having fun?

√0 is my bet.

I can only imagine it is the most soul destroying thing in eve, after guarding ice miners.

Furthermore, if you're going to be asinine about, what are those escorts going to do against a titan drive by?

All of the game aspects have moved on since the freighter escort days, not just one or two.

Also, how do you propose you escort a jump ship? Add a bridging jumping titan to the mix? Have a double fleet and leap frog? Log it out in the middle whilst the subcaps catch up?


You really don't. Just cloak your cyno in the target system and when it's clear - uncloak and go for it.

If you're in a super duper alliance, just um coordinate the jumps. I can only assume that cfc has the resources to hold safe the docking ring of a ls system twice a day to allow your freighter pilots to make some moves. You don't have to suddenly provide 32 gate coverage for the JF route and the requirement for JF protection to jump with it is just made up and not necessary. I can see some security issues in LS systems and a few chokepoints in null, but if I can see them so can you.

tbh I don't really care what you guys do or don't do to compensate. I really just dislike the current risk free aspect... it just doesn't sit right with me or everything else in eve. I just giggle when you guys say stuff like "I paid 9billion isk for my JF. I shouldn't have to put it at risk. That's just not reasonable.... 9 billion isk"

The point of this isn't to break eve. It's not anti JF. It's not even anti large null allaince (well, for me it kind of is, but not the OP as far as I can tell). It's about abuse of current game mechanics to move bazillions (12 zeros I think on that) in assets risk free. Look at it this way JF pilots - you had a really good run of free jumping. It's at its end. Be happy for all the free you have accumulated, don't despair over the future.

Does anyone logging in to eve ever deserve a free ride? I say HELL NO

OH, if you want soul destroying - participate in an ishtar or archon sentry fleet (this includes staying at the keyboard and watching the action once you've assigned your drones to an elite pvp pilot). Guarding ice miners takes all day. Guarding a cyno takes a few min per cycle.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2015-05-14 17:14:33 UTC
So make them 90m and we can talk ;)

Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2015-05-14 17:30:32 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
This change, as well as the equally idiotic "remove newb corps" change, will destroy the game's economy when all the ******* logistics people quit the game after about a week having to haul tritanium in blockade runners. People suggesting this crap just have no clue at all. Nobody is going to invest 8 billion ISK into a freighter that's more than marginally killable when performing its intended role.

Seriously suggesting something like this makes it abundantly clear you have no clue at all. It's really precious that people actually believe it's good for the game for people to have to do **** like form up escort fleets for jump freighters at every goddamn jump waypoint from Jita to the 0.0 home station. Do you torture small animals for fun in your spare time? Because this suggestion is about that level of sadism. Freighter escort ops are about as much fun as eye surgery, it's worse than structure shooting and forcing people to do this to live in 0.0 means they don't live in 0.0 or they quit the game.

It is also not possible to move **** in a freighter safely. You can get about 80-90% safety by webbing it into warp, but you can't get 100%. Further, there is absolutely NOTHING you can do to prevent a suicide gank from occurring once they're bumping you. It doesn't matter how many friends you have with you, it's almost impossible to scout the gank ahead of time because any innocuous neutral could be their bumper. Once the freighter is being bumped the rest can take all the time in the world flying over to you. CONCORD protects the bumper and their suicide gank ships from being preemptively killed, so there's jack **** you can do to prevent the gank.


1st paragraph of rage tears - if adding risk to your eve activities makes you quit - I won't miss you.

2nd paragraph of name calling and just plain freaking out that you might be inconvenienced - your inablity to see how exploding convoys would bring glorious epic play time to many across the eve universe just makes me sad. It's not about the one (you) it's about the many (me).

3rd paragraph where you prove beyond any doubt that you are a product of our entitled society - you're claim that 80-90% safety isn't enough got me chuckling, but then when you as goon starts arguing that there is nothing you can do once they start bumping you - that is where I fell out of my chair and almost go fired. On the first account - whining about a mere 80-90% safety actually speaks for itself - you sir are a pampered ninny w/ an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. On the second accout - it's your dear dear bretheren who have been imploring for 5 years that a bumped freighter has many various avenues to escape a gank. Perhaps you could produce a memo proving which one of you is correct.

Please post all the mails from other jf pilots begging for you to stop helping them argue this. It's rare for me to bother with saving posts from these forums, but this one.... pure gold. Thank you for helping me get through the day.

We need a vote. Is he for real or for troll?? I'm not sure.


Winning post of this entire thread.

Don't like losses? Increase your sell order price to compensate. Going to cry about how you'll be put out of business compared to other people? They have to take the same risk, and should logically increase their prices as well.

The day a goon whines like an entitled baby about needing 100% safety is the day EvE died.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#146 - 2015-05-14 17:35:13 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So make them 90m and we can talk ;)

Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances.



I would love one of you JF jockies to link the graphs of price vs deserved safety, frequency flown vs. deserved safety or anything vs. deserved safety.

For price. When I drop a plexing fleet on a sight the isk I put out there far far far outweighs the price of your JF (and more likely than not its contents too). So if the 'high value = safety' argument is valid.... how can LH keep ganking my plexing fleet and why am I not complaining about it on the forums?

For frequency. The more I do sites (the more isk I make) the more safety I deserve?? On one hand I like the way you guys think, but on the other hand - NO.

For distance travelled. Ok you got me there - I really don't travel over great distances. I'm just not seeing the validity of 'I travel really far' (do to 'I whined for fatigue reduction') equating to 'I deserve a risk free trip'.

All your arguments are completely upside down when compared with everything that eve stands for. I just don't get it. You had a good run lads be thankful. You whined..... errrr locked in fatigue reductions so be double thankful.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#147 - 2015-05-14 17:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
afkalt wrote:

Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances.


You realise this would affect all capitals.

And possibly Titans/Motherships being able to dock in the new XL structures.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2015-05-14 17:41:15 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Dustpuppy wrote:
You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change.


Are we talking about the NEED or the ABILITY to move large volumes of material? Clearly some people think there is a NEED, that it is important, and that we should have a powerful ABILITY to do that.

We know what that ABILITY looks like now, but what SHOULD that ABILITY look like?

Dustpuppy wrote:
Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game


That's just flat out wrong. Moving high volume goods can be done with a regular freighter and safely. It just can't be done in as manhour and manpower efficient a way, but seeing as how this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game . . . that's actually a good thing. Being able to haul half the market in a single player's ship and making that ship able to teleport directly from invulnerable state to invulnerable state . . . where in that is the "game"? That's God-mode.


You can haul goods safely in well tanked and stabbed T1s as long as you're willing to take the risk that every so often there will be a gatecamp you cant get through, and get killed.

But again, the people here whining are risk averse and don't know how to offset their costs.

Also, the Bestower is absolute dog garbage for hauling anything but ore in highsec. You can get superior tank and equal hauling space, with faster align time, in a well tanked and stabbed sigil. It doesn't need to wait around as long at the gate to warp off, which is nicely compounding with the much higher EHP, even with cargohold expanders on.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2015-05-14 17:44:48 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
You have just described a pretty straightforward and natural progression. The first people to the frontier are the ones who want quick riches and don't mind getting killed by the natives. A few years later, you have civilization and government control from sea to shining sea.

Do you really expect any system to remain in the "gold rush" "stake claiming" and "slaughtering natives" stage forever?

Making the game more painful to play will not bring back the frontier. Game mechanics did not bring the empires - with all their bureaucracy and organization - to Eve. Players did. Players organized and imposed order on the universe - because those who could not organize effectively did not survive. If you make the game more painful to play, the best organized groups will still find ways around it. What groups do you think can best organize 1000 players to conduct weekly or monthly freighter move operations? The same ones who can currently control enough space to move their ships in relative safely today.

Honestly, you sound like someone bitching about the pernicious effects of the Transcontinental Railroad in the Internet Age.

I do not envy CCP as they attempt to balance between fighting stagnation in Eve and trying to keep their current players happy. If you can figure out a way to roll back Eve's clock 10 years without killing Eve, I'm sure there is a job for you in Iceland.


So we're in agreement then. Fixing the relative immunity of JFs would actually cause alliances of people to want to carve up lowsec for safety reasons, thus creating more chances for emergent gameplay, giving rise to alliances that patrol lowsec against pirates, making it safe for JFs.

You make a great point for this change actually improving the game's roundedness for what players can do, or might want to do.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2015-05-14 17:54:44 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Here's an odd question that could use some explaining.

How in the sweet bejesus did eve even function before jump freighters???



Apparently EvE was dead before jump freighters were introduced... for about 5+ years it was just a theory game with 50k accounts.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2015-05-14 18:06:18 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
afkalt wrote:

Other capitals don't get a fair comparison because they're not flown so frequently and across such vast distances.


You realise this would affect all capitals.

And possibly Titans/Motherships being able to dock in the new XL structures.


Obviously but my point is, people don't YOLO their archons from jita to the outer reaches and back again. They have a far better, /contained/ area of operations.

So saying other things (like supers) already suffer this is disingenuous.

Is the situation today ideal? Not really - but taking a pragmatic, realistic view it's well placed in the grand scheme. This change won't result in more capital kills, quite the opposite. It will also cause a monumental ballache to logistics all over eve and we'll all pay for that.

The idea in isolation is arguably nice, but it doesn't stand up when human nature is considered along with it. The risk to a noncombatant ship of this cost isn't worth the reward to the owner. Escorts are a (terrible) idea but fall down on the sheer volume of runs performed.

Supers not being allowed to dock hasn't exactly made them a hotbed of pvp action as a result, has it?
Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#152 - 2015-05-14 18:32:12 UTC
Dustpuppy wrote:
Khorvek wrote:


The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.



You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change.

And here the situation is clear. You need the possibility to move high volumes to keep the economy running.

Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game which should be removed according to the OP.

Using a JF in a different way (e.g. jumping into a system without station or by using a cyno outside a docking range) is the best way to loose such a ship within a short period. It can only be done in quiet areas when no one else is around and you still find a lot of kills happening in such systems.

What you all forget is that JF haul goods which end on the market and a market can only exist if people are around. As a result a JF pilot must jump and dock in crowded/busy systems, he can't avoid it. It's simply a fundamental fact that trading hubs are always crowded.


No, I understand the thread. You were talking about my sig so I responded to it. You're the one who brought that up, as you later point out now that its irrelevant to the thread.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#153 - 2015-05-14 18:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
An empty freighter in Hisec comes under more risk than a JF full of juice jumping around stations in Low or Nullsec.

Balanced gaem

afkalt wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


You realise this would affect all capitals.

And possibly Titans/Motherships being able to dock in the new XL structures.


Obviously but my point is, people don't YOLO their archons from jita to the outer reaches and back again. They have a far better, /contained/ area of operations.
...

Supers not being allowed to dock hasn't exactly made them a hotbed of pvp action as a result, has it?


They y0l0 their whole Titans solo. As it should be.

#REKKINGCREW

HALP SUPER TACKLED


Quote:
So saying other things (like supers) already suffer this is disingenuous.


Roll

Quote:
Is the situation today ideal? Not really - but taking a pragmatic, realistic view it's well placed in the grand scheme. This change won't result in more capital kills, quite the opposite. It will also cause a monumental ballache to logistics all over eve and we'll all pay for that.


Cry me a river.

We used to supply the whole 0.0 POS infrastructure in Tech 1 haulers, because nothing else was available at that time. Smile

Quote:
Escorts are a (terrible) idea but fall down on the sheer volume of runs performed.


Itsa MMO.

You'll adapt and harden the **** up.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2015-05-14 18:51:21 UTC
I remember the T1 hauler days. Some good old youtube videos of a fleet of the now defunct and **** bestower, among others, feeding nullsec POSes.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#155 - 2015-05-14 18:55:09 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
**** bestower


Train for an Impel, nub. P

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2015-05-14 19:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Things change. Usually for the better. AOE remote doomsday was a thing too.....want that back?

Adapt? I'm not a JF pilot, I just don't want EVERYTHING to get more expensive because :reasons:

What reward do you propose for the added risk?



Do you think this change adds depth or fun to players, or just more crap so the bads can get ganked and we all pay more for T2 products?

Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible?


This idea is like saying 'nerf Titans tank so they die more'. Because.

Honestly, awful. Some people have no idea how the ecosystem works.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#157 - 2015-05-14 19:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
afkalt wrote:
Things change. Usually for the better. AOE remote doomsday was a thing too.....want that back?

Adapt? I'm not a JF pilot, I just don't want EVERYTHING to get more expensive because :reasons:


Not everything, just some resources from Null.

By 10% at most. Blink

Quote:
What reward do you propose for the added risk?


Not having to fly a freighter from gate to gate for 20 jumps thru Low/Nullsec is not enough?

Herpderp

Quote:
Do you think this change adds depth or fun to players, or just more crap so the bads can get ganked and we all pay more for T2 products?


Yes, it does.

Quote:
Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible?


That would be a welcomed change. I think you don't realise how safe current JF mechanics are, and underestimating the risk of doing the same in BRs/DSTs even with cynos 10 km off station.

Quote:
Honestly, awful. Some people have no idea how the ecosystem works.


Yes, risk-reward is broken. Ecosystem is operating on the assumption that the bubble won't pop.

Pop


No scrap that, ecosystem is flexible - it won't notice much change, and the entities who are enjoying the benefits are operating on that assumption instead.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2015-05-14 19:36:28 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Do you think people wouldn't just start punting blockade runners instead, wherever possible?


That would be a welcomed change. I think you don't realise how safe current JF mechanics are, and underestimating the risk of doing the same in BRs/DSTs even with cynos 10 km off station.


I think until you know how blops cynos work, maybe you should refrain from comment....in this entire thread, tbh.

PROTIP: People dont blops cyno onto stations.


And enough with the multiquoting, it makes replies overly onerous. There's a quote limit you know.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#159 - 2015-05-14 19:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
afkalt wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:

That would be a welcomed change. I think you don't realise how safe current JF mechanics are, and underestimating the risk of doing the same in BRs/DSTs even with cynos 10 km off station.


I think until you know how blops cynos work, maybe you should refrain from comment....in this entire thread, tbh.


This thread is about normal cynos off station covering the issue of JFs.

Quote:
And enough with the multiquoting


A quote is a quote is a quote. vOv

Quote:
it makes replies overly onerous.


Yes, some people don't like point-by-point discussions. Smile

Quote:
There's a quote limit you know.


Yes, and I think it is fiev.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2015-05-14 19:54:59 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
**** bestower


Train for an Impel, nub. P


My sigil works twice as well and much cheaper, thanks nub.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices