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Over farming - broken mechanics - The Real issue in EVE PVE
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Anthar Thebess
#1 - 2015-05-14 09:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
So this topic is connected to over farming issue - when there is system / mechanic that allow small group of players to endlessly and fast grind tons of ISK or LP without big investment or real risk.

This topic is to address this issue to CCP.

Over farming in terms of ISK:

The biggest issue : Smartbombing
- easy to manage multiple accounts
- generating tons of easy ISK
- generating tons of escalations

Example fit : http://evepraisal.com/e/6031085
You could say it is expensive , but this fit is for the Sansha rats that have most expensive smart bombs.

How it is abused:
- group of 3-4 alts in this kind of ship can complete a haven within 3-4 minutes.
This way you can get:
- 50-60mil (isk+loot) per site
- up to few faction spawns per hour
- up to few escalations per hour

This is possible because anomaly spawns show in predefined locations , and rats are very close to each other.
Simple solution is to randomize spawns or make them more spread out.

Over Farming in terms of LP:
1. Lowsec lvl 5 missions
Blitzable under 2-3 minutes you for around 90.000 LP

Solution is to remove ability to blitz those missions.

2. Burner missions .
Plan was good.
Missions are hard when this is burner vs single player ship, but usual group for killing burner ships is 3-5 alts in T2 / cheap faction frigates.

Time to kill a burner in this setup <30s
This could be acceptable if those missions would be rare , but currently you can easily get tons of those missions one after another.
So we are talking about up to 5 burner missions one after another sometimes.
When someone have 5 alts doing those missions already , we are talking about up to 500.000lp /hour .( you can get up to 25.000 lp per mission )

Solution could be spawning equal number of supportive burner ships equal to number of ships arriving on grid , or limiting the number of burner missions per hour.


In most of the cases we are talking about stuff that was not meant to be done in :
- capitals
- by horde of alts ( and this is most important thing , as for example incursions are also "easy isk" but you require multiple people to do it)

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#2 - 2015-05-14 10:02:02 UTC
hey your addressing activities concerned with null and lowsec which presents risk lets not leave out highsec activities here

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3 - 2015-05-14 11:05:15 UTC
High Sec Incursions and FW missions are worse farming activities than anything you mentioned.
Anthar Thebess
#4 - 2015-05-14 11:20:47 UTC
Then post them here , and possible solution that will not totally brake specific activity - just fix specific mechanic.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#5 - 2015-05-14 11:22:48 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Then post them here , and possible solution that will not totally brake specific activity - just fix specific mechanic.


there is a huge thread on the highsec things im not going to repeat it to make a redundant thread

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Anthar Thebess
#6 - 2015-05-14 11:31:16 UTC
Ok so lets split higsec and nullsec.
This is heavily connected to nullsec activities.

Smartbombing also generates tons of isk , that is very bad for every one, burner missions are killing Pirate LP , as there is no point of doing any other missions.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-05-14 11:34:09 UTC
Good god don't look at wormholes. You'll have a seizure.

I take it the "tl;dr" here is, people are being efficient. This must end?
Anthar Thebess
#8 - 2015-05-14 11:39:47 UTC
That depends how you look about this things.

I don't live in wormholes, but from what i heard solution for wormholes is very similar like for smart bombs:
- randomize spawns a bit
- randomize spawn locations
- randomize spawn spread out


When new wave will spawn away from your sieged dreads ... you will have very bad surprise.

Look at the burner missions.
Goal was to make pvp like missions - 1 vs 1 , and this ended up 1 vs horde of alts.

When you get on your head overwhelming force will you fight till the end , or try to disengage?

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-05-14 11:45:20 UTC
Perhaps the actual problem is PvE is boring and making isk is a chore for many thus it is performed in the most efficient manner possible.

And that was NEVER the goal of burners, the goal of burners was a "fitting puzzle".
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#10 - 2015-05-14 12:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Efficiency isn't the problem, it's what you get for that efficiency that is the problem.

Smart Bomb Ratting isn't that bad though it is a bit of overfarming, because it takes place in dangerous space (risk of loss), takes expensive ships to do (even outside of sansha/blood raider space) and even then doesn't pay out better than other things.

I know, I used to smartbomb rat last year till I figured out that I'm risking almost a JUMP FREIGHTER worth of ships (Deapsapce/faction fit mach and 3 Fleet Phoons costing 7+ bil)) and using FOUR Characters (without even the benefit of Isboxer) and still making less isk per hour than if I simply pushed a freaking tech2 frigate sized ship around FW low sec

Same goes for lvl 5 mission blitzing. Done properly it takes 3 carriers and unless you are in one of the few areas where there are stations close together, it mean erecting POSes to hold 1 or even both "side system" carriers. That's another 8 bil minimum worth of 'set up' costs.

While high sec incursions don't pay as much as the above activities, (under peak conditions I've been in fleets that clocked 180 mil isk per hour, but that of course requires a tcrc wall and is rare), my incursion ship is only 2 bil, it only takes me 1 ship and 1 character as opposed to the multiple expensive ships and characters that the above 'solo' activities do, and they take place in space protected by CONCORD. The activities Anthar describe can be (and in my case, usually are) disrupted all the time, and those disruptions have to be included in any balance considerations. Disruptions happen in High Sec incursions and FW, but not nearly frequently enough to slow down that gravy train. I'm on that gravy train every night.


Fro me the "Hierarchy of Disfunction" looks like this:

-FW Missions (fix by making them not blitzable, add web towers)

-High Sec Incursions (lots of ideas, don't know which would be best thoguh)

-High Sec lvl 4 SOE and Thukker missions (SOE more than thukker, though there is a market for Nomad implants, fix by upping the LP costs of probes, probe launchers, virtue implants in SOe store) I do these semi afk with a Golem while running high sec incursions.

-Everything else


CCP needs to do a comprehensive, top down then bottom up review of PVE in this game, because EVe pve is so "Gamable" (pun intended) it's not even funny. PVE isn't just a way to make isk, ideally it should be a facilitator of content creation ie "you try to make isk via killing npcs or exploring, other people try to stop you either directly by shooting you or indirectly by beating you to the good loot or manipulating markets to make your loot worth less". As it is now, PVE in EVE is incredibly unbalanced and, if anything, a content KILLER.

Except in wormhole space, Wormhole PVe works right. max danger, max rewards, fights start when someone tries to attack someone else's PVE operation.
Anthar Thebess
#11 - 2015-05-14 13:39:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Except in wormhole space, Wormhole PVe works right. max danger, max rewards, fights start when someone tries to attack someone else's PVE operation.


Wormhole space can be easily "safe" by putting all possible wormholes to critical status.
Yes someone can logout and wait for you , but this is what you agree when moving to wormhole.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2015-05-14 14:39:53 UTC
Did you remember to divide all isk/hour or lp/hour figures by the number of alts accounts?
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#13 - 2015-05-14 15:07:11 UTC
So someone doing nullsec ratting in over 6bil worth of ships is breaking EVE? You do realize how much ratting that person will have to do before they even break even, right? Not to mention how much that person is risking? In my estimation the risk vs reward is slightly more balanced towards the risk end of that equation, because if he screws up and gets caught by a small gang of pvpers, he is out 6bil isk easily.
Ormarr Kai
Pator Tech School
#14 - 2015-05-14 15:53:43 UTC
0/10
Paranoid Loyd
#15 - 2015-05-14 16:30:28 UTC
None of us have enough information to have an informed opinion of what is being "over-farmed" or what the definition of "over-farmed" is or even should be.

You would have to be able to look at the game as a whole and this is simply not possible from the limited information available to us.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Kaye Kaye
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-05-14 20:34:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaye Kaye
These NERF PVE threads should all be put in one Wasteland Thread in Game Ideas, really!

This game is already holding on with life support as new much more immersive games are on the horizon.
So why not, just put the nail in the coffin and remove anything that resembles a linear game progression. Turn it completely over to PVP engagements and enjoy the bandwidth savings CCP will likely have due to non use.

Best wishes


The correct solutions to these problems is ADD more missions in HS, increase payouts for difficult missions in HS, add interesting things that cost lots of ISK to obtain (I.E. Rare or Super Rare ship materials, etc) .... give players a goal with a compelling motive to play.

This game can be played for three months tops before I just delete all my toons and stuff, quit for 6 months, then sub again for 3 months... Rinse and repeat... just waiting for SC to actually become a game.
Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-05-14 21:57:01 UTC
trolls trolling trolls.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-05-14 23:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
Jenn aSide wrote:
Efficiency isn't the problem, it's what you get for that efficiency that is the problem.

Smart Bomb Ratting isn't that bad though it is a bit of overfarming, because it takes place in dangerous space (risk of loss), takes expensive ships to do (even outside of sansha/blood raider space) and even then doesn't pay out better than other things.

I know, I used to smartbomb rat last year till I figured out that I'm risking almost a JUMP FREIGHTER worth of ships (Deapsapce/faction fit mach and 3 Fleet Phoons costing 7+ bil)) and using FOUR Characters (without even the benefit of Isboxer) and still making less isk per hour than if I simply pushed a freaking tech2 frigate sized ship around FW low sec

Same goes for lvl 5 mission blitzing. Done properly it takes 3 carriers and unless you are in one of the few areas where there are stations close together, it mean erecting POSes to hold 1 or even both "side system" carriers. That's another 8 bil minimum worth of 'set up' costs.

While high sec incursions don't pay as much as the above activities, (under peak conditions I've been in fleets that clocked 180 mil isk per hour, but that of course requires a tcrc wall and is rare), my incursion ship is only 2 bil, it only takes me 1 ship and 1 character as opposed to the multiple expensive ships and characters that the above 'solo' activities do, and they take place in space protected by CONCORD. The activities Anthar describe can be (and in my case, usually are) disrupted all the time, and those disruptions have to be included in any balance considerations. Disruptions happen in High Sec incursions and FW, but not nearly frequently enough to slow down that gravy train. I'm on that gravy train every night.


Fro me the "Hierarchy of Disfunction" looks like this:

-FW Missions (fix by making them not blitzable, add web towers)

-High Sec Incursions (lots of ideas, don't know which would be best thoguh)

-High Sec lvl 4 SOE and Thukker missions (SOE more than thukker, though there is a market for Nomad implants, fix by upping the LP costs of probes, probe launchers, virtue implants in SOe store) I do these semi afk with a Golem while running high sec incursions.

-Everything else


CCP needs to do a comprehensive, top down then bottom up review of PVE in this game, because EVe pve is so "Gamable" (pun intended) it's not even funny. PVE isn't just a way to make isk, ideally it should be a facilitator of content creation ie "you try to make isk via killing npcs or exploring, other people try to stop you either directly by shooting you or indirectly by beating you to the good loot or manipulating markets to make your loot worth less". As it is now, PVE in EVE is incredibly unbalanced and, if anything, a content KILLER.

Except in wormhole space, Wormhole PVe works right. max danger, max rewards, fights start when someone tries to attack someone else's PVE operation.


You know there are quite alot of people who play this game without a collection of high SP alts? Should they have to grind for a month to afford one advanced cruiser?

I don't think you want to lock out new/casual players by trying to make PvE a challenge for bittervets. People are always going to find a way to game the system for maximum farming, especially when they have a mob of high skilled alts and can multibox all of them.

As of right now I can't even access incursions with my main because FW has shot my standings with 2 factions, and my one alt is too low skilled to fly an incursion fit. Knowing what I know now about the game I could pay to train a dedicated incursion runner in 6 months or so but I'm not sure how much real world cash I want to inject into this game.

Balancing the game based on the assumption that everyone is a multiboxing bittervet seems like a bad idea. And most of the gripes about risk vs rewards are in relation to that crowd figuring out the most risk averse methods of multi-account ISK printing. Making everyone else play that game to generate enough income to do fun stuff is not going to solve the problem.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#19 - 2015-05-15 02:00:49 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


You know there are quite alot of people who play this game without a collection of high SP alts? Should they have to grind for a month to afford one advanced cruiser?

I don't think you want to lock out new/casual players by trying to make PvE a challenge for bittervets. People are always going to find a way to game the system for maximum farming, especially when they have a mob of high skilled alts and can multibox all of them.

As of right now I can't even access incursions with my main because FW has shot my standings with 2 factions, and my one alt is too low skilled to fly an incursion fit. Knowing what I know now about the game I could pay to train a dedicated incursion runner in 6 months or so but I'm not sure how much real world cash I want to inject into this game.

Balancing the game based on the assumption that everyone is a multiboxing bittervet seems like a bad idea. And most of the gripes about risk vs rewards are in relation to that crowd figuring out the most risk averse methods of multi-account ISK printing. Making everyone else play that game to generate enough income to do fun stuff is not going to solve the problem.


That's an awful lot of rationalizing about how a game doesn't need a proper and healthy PVE balance based on the principle of risk/reward.

That balance has nothing to do with the price of anything or the ease of buying anything. No one is suggesting any 'nerf' that makes things more grindy, there are ways to fix things without doing that.

But this is not a 'new player' issue. New players aren't flying 4 battleships in null anomalies, they aren't flying 5 bil incursion boats, or seeding 3 carriers in a constellation to blitzing lvl 5s etc. Even so, "new players" is no justification for that wild imbalances of faction warfare missions either. People survived without being able to make 150 to 400 mil per hour with a stealth bomber in the past and they will survive gain.

No, the issue is precisely at the "top end" of PVE, people who have been playing a while and are capable of playing anywhere in New Eden. That's where CCP should be looking and eventually fixing.
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2015-05-15 02:37:24 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Efficiency isn't the problem, it's what you get for that efficiency that is the problem.

Smart Bomb Ratting isn't that bad though it is a bit of overfarming, because it takes place in dangerous space (risk of loss), takes expensive ships to do (even outside of sansha/blood raider space) and even then doesn't pay out better than other things.

I know, I used to smartbomb rat last year till I figured out that I'm risking almost a JUMP FREIGHTER worth of ships (Deapsapce/faction fit mach and 3 Fleet Phoons costing 7+ bil)) and using FOUR Characters (without even the benefit of Isboxer) and still making less isk per hour than if I simply pushed a freaking tech2 frigate sized ship around FW low sec

Same goes for lvl 5 mission blitzing. Done properly it takes 3 carriers and unless you are in one of the few areas where there are stations close together, it mean erecting POSes to hold 1 or even both "side system" carriers. That's another 8 bil minimum worth of 'set up' costs.

While high sec incursions don't pay as much as the above activities, (under peak conditions I've been in fleets that clocked 180 mil isk per hour, but that of course requires a tcrc wall and is rare), my incursion ship is only 2 bil, it only takes me 1 ship and 1 character as opposed to the multiple expensive ships and characters that the above 'solo' activities do, and they take place in space protected by CONCORD. The activities Anthar describe can be (and in my case, usually are) disrupted all the time, and those disruptions have to be included in any balance considerations. Disruptions happen in High Sec incursions and FW, but not nearly frequently enough to slow down that gravy train. I'm on that gravy train every night.


Fro me the "Hierarchy of Disfunction" looks like this:

-FW Missions (fix by making them not blitzable, add web towers)

-High Sec Incursions (lots of ideas, don't know which would be best thoguh)

-High Sec lvl 4 SOE and Thukker missions (SOE more than thukker, though there is a market for Nomad implants, fix by upping the LP costs of probes, probe launchers, virtue implants in SOe store) I do these semi afk with a Golem while running high sec incursions.

-Everything else


CCP needs to do a comprehensive, top down then bottom up review of PVE in this game, because EVe pve is so "Gamable" (pun intended) it's not even funny. PVE isn't just a way to make isk, ideally it should be a facilitator of content creation ie "you try to make isk via killing npcs or exploring, other people try to stop you either directly by shooting you or indirectly by beating you to the good loot or manipulating markets to make your loot worth less". As it is now, PVE in EVE is incredibly unbalanced and, if anything, a content KILLER.

Except in wormhole space, Wormhole PVe works right. max danger, max rewards, fights start when someone tries to attack someone else's PVE operation.


You know there are quite alot of people who play this game without a collection of high SP alts? Should they have to grind for a month to afford one advanced cruiser?

I don't think you want to lock out new/casual players by trying to make PvE a challenge for bittervets. People are always going to find a way to game the system for maximum farming, especially when they have a mob of high skilled alts and can multibox all of them.

As of right now I can't even access incursions with my main because FW has shot my standings with 2 factions, and my one alt is too low skilled to fly an incursion fit. Knowing what I know now about the game I could pay to train a dedicated incursion runner in 6 months or so but I'm not sure how much real world cash I want to inject into this game.

Balancing the game based on the assumption that everyone is a multiboxing bittervet seems like a bad idea. And most of the gripes about risk vs rewards are in relation to that crowd figuring out the most risk averse methods of multi-account ISK printing. Making everyone else play that game to generate enough income to do fun stuff is not going to solve the problem.

Hi I only use one account predominantly. I do not farm/station trade or even haul on another account. I enjoy being "Daerrol" in all aspects of the game. Using only a Scimitar and a Salvage Destroyer I was able to, working with other players who only had perhaps 10m SP, make around 400m in a 5 hour play session. There was 2 hours of PVP in that time too....
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