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Capacitor to play a bigger role in warping.

Author
Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-05-13 05:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kione Keikira
Currently it costs a varying amount of capacitor to warp. Short jumps cost basically nothing, for a 5AU warp in a frigate it costs 10 cap or so which is practically nothing. For longer jumps it's a little more, on the order of 100 or so cap for a 50AU warp. This practically means that most ships can warp forever due to cap regen during the warp, and long warps don't disadvantage the pilot in any way unless you get one cancelled.

My suggestion:

  1. Warp costs a fixed amount of cap to initiate.
  2. While in warp an amount of cap will be drained per second, the warp will stop once the destination is reached or the ship runs out of capacitor.
  3. Warp Drive Operation skill to only give a 5% reduction per level.
  4. Warp piggybacking so frigates can leech off a battleship / cruisers / haulers warp so they don't use cap, but warp slower.
  5. Maybe have warping disable all forms of capacitor regeneration to make the Warp Core Optimizer rig more useful / significant?


Reasons for such a change:

  • Frigates can be made to only warp around 5/6 times consecutively until they get capped out, possibly making them slower than cruisers over long distances yet faster over shorter distances. As ships get bigger they could sustain more consecutive warps.
  • Cancelling long warps no longer deprives you of as much capacitor, but cancelling short ones also costs the same amount.
  • Battleships could have an advantage to offset their slow movement.


The numbers of course are subject to question, but I think something like the following would be suitable:

  • 1GJ per AU for all ship classes iff #5 of the suggestion is suitable.
  • Frigates / Destroyers: 50GJ for warp initiation.
  • Cruisers / Battlecruisers: 100GJ for warp initiation.
  • Battleships: 200GJ for warp initiation.


Food for thought:
Will the disadvantage in capacitor when landing on grid hurt frigates too much?
Will this help battleships become a little more popular?

Master of being misunderstood.

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2015-05-13 06:35:28 UTC
I really like the idea of making frigates good for brief surges of warp, followed by a short resting period. I don't know if capacitor is the way to do it though, as a frigate's capacitor can regenerate from 25% to 75% often in less time than it takes to exit warp.

Perhaps being in warp could add an effect to a ship that gradually drains capacitor at a fixed rate, while progressively decreasing the ship's capacitor recharge rate--a flat decrease which goes down the same speed for frigates, will eventually force the capacitor regen to zero and thus force the ship out of warp, but will gradually return to normal once out of warp. Frigates would not be able to sustain warp for as long due to having a lower net capacitor regen rate, but since they spend less time in warp due to their higher speed, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. It would force a frigate to avoid being constantly in warp, but the frigate also would have rather short resting periods in-between warp sessions. A battleship, on the other hand, could keep warping for several minutes before capping out.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-05-13 07:34:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Kione Keikira
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I really like the idea of making frigates good for brief surges of warp, followed by a short resting period. I don't know if capacitor is the way to do it though, as a frigate's capacitor can regenerate from 25% to 75% often in less time than it takes to exit warp.

Perhaps being in warp could add an effect to a ship that gradually drains capacitor at a fixed rate, while progressively decreasing the ship's capacitor recharge rate--a flat decrease which goes down the same speed for frigates, will eventually force the capacitor regen to zero and thus force the ship out of warp, but will gradually return to normal once out of warp. Frigates would not be able to sustain warp for as long due to having a lower net capacitor regen rate, but since they spend less time in warp due to their higher speed, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. It would force a frigate to avoid being constantly in warp, but the frigate also would have rather short resting periods in-between warp sessions. A battleship, on the other hand, could keep warping for several minutes before capping out.


I had the exact same thought. Though I should probably fix that wording...

Kione Keikira wrote:

5. Maybe have warping disables capacitor regeneration to make the Warp Core Optimizer rig more useful / significant?

Master of being misunderstood.

erg cz
ErgoDron
#4 - 2015-05-13 07:43:35 UTC
I do not agree. This game is so slow sometimes and slow warp will only make it worse. Slow warp cause you will have to wait next to the gate till you cap is recharged again. Let make game more interesting, not more boring due to "more realistic" features.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2015-05-13 10:18:49 UTC
But I thought half of the reason for the warp speed changes was to allow smaller ships to get to wherever bigger ships are going before they do, so they can ambush them?

Why should interceptors not be able to intercept? Why should a battleship fleet be slowed down by it's support, given how slow battleships already are?

How does this help battleships given that it does nothing to actually adress the issues people have with them? (IE it takes forever to actually go anywhere in the damn things, and by the time you get your BS fleet to the fight, the HAC/T3 fleets have already finished and gone home)
Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-05-13 11:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kione Keikira
Danika Princip wrote:
But I thought half of the reason for the warp speed changes was to allow smaller ships to get to wherever bigger ships are going before they do, so they can ambush them?

Why should interceptors not be able to intercept? Why should a battleship fleet be slowed down by it's support, given how slow battleships already are?

How does this help battleships given that it does nothing to actually adress the issues people have with them? (IE it takes forever to actually go anywhere in the damn things, and by the time you get your BS fleet to the fight, the HAC/T3 fleets have already finished and gone home)


Frigates are still the kings of maneuverability they just become limited with their range, say 5 or so jumps before having to rest. This way if you're trying to chase down a frigate gang with cruisers it would become possible with the increased cap cost, but would take you a few jumps to catch them before they have to stop and wait for cap, provided you don't lose track of them. In a single system the frigates should be able to catch you fairly easily since they warp faster, but if you manage to elude them for another 4 systems or so they're not going to get you; escaping from a frigate gang is as hard as it was previously.

The same would be true with cruisers being chased by battleships, albeit over a larger distance. You also forget that I suggested that the support could "piggyback" off of the slower but more cap efficient BS warp. While I do admit that the last point you bring up isn't addressed by this, it's not something that's supposed to be addressed with this proposed change, although I do think 2AU/s is far too slow.

Master of being misunderstood.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#7 - 2015-05-13 13:22:07 UTC
Kione Keikira wrote:
Currently it costs a varying amount of capacitor to warp. Short jumps cost basically nothing, for a 5AU warp in a frigate it costs 10 cap or so which is practically nothing. For longer jumps it's a little more, on the order of 100 or so cap for a 50AU warp. This practically means that most ships can warp forever due to cap regen during the warp, and long warps don't disadvantage the pilot in any way unless you get one cancelled.

My suggestion:

  1. Warp costs a fixed amount of cap to initiate.
  2. While in warp an amount of cap will be drained per second, the warp will stop once the destination is reached or the ship runs out of capacitor.
  3. Warp Drive Operation skill to only give a 5% reduction per level.
  4. Warp piggybacking so frigates can leech off a battleship / cruisers / haulers warp so they don't use cap, but warp slower.
  5. Maybe have warping disable all forms of capacitor regeneration to make the Warp Core Optimizer rig more useful / significant?


Reasons for such a change:

  • Frigates can be made to only warp around 5/6 times consecutively until they get capped out, possibly making them slower than cruisers over long distances yet faster over shorter distances. As ships get bigger they could sustain more consecutive warps.
  • Cancelling long warps no longer deprives you of as much capacitor, but cancelling short ones also costs the same amount.
  • Battleships could have an advantage to offset their slow movement.


The numbers of course are subject to question, but I think something like the following would be suitable:

  • 1GJ per AU for all ship classes iff #5 of the suggestion is suitable.
  • Frigates / Destroyers: 50GJ for warp initiation.
  • Cruisers / Battlecruisers: 100GJ for warp initiation.
  • Battleships: 200GJ for warp initiation.


Food for thought:
Will the disadvantage in capacitor when landing on grid hurt frigates too much?
Will this help battleships become a little more popular?


Translation:

Me no like fatigue, make gone.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#8 - 2015-05-13 13:40:20 UTC
erg cz wrote:
I do not agree. This game is so slow sometimes and slow warp will only make it worse. Slow warp cause you will have to wait next to the gate till you cap is recharged again. Let make game more interesting, not more boring due to "more realistic" features.


I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle. The people suggesting those "realistic" features don't want to make the game more boring or slower. They want to make it bigger and more complex.

Yes decreases in travel speed (direct or indirect) will make it take longer to go 20 jumps to find some action. But that's precisely the point. If you can travel 20 jumps like it's nothing, just to get some quick action, that makes the game ridiculously small (New Eden is "only" about 100 jumps end-to end).

The harder it is to travel huge distances, the harder it will be for huge sovblocks to survive on huge territories. And the size of those sovblocks is the reason you need to travel 20 jumps for action in the first place. And yes, I know this is a simplification and that travel nerfs hit the little guy as well.

As to OPs suggestion:

While I like the general idea, I don't like how you seem to want to take cap regen out of the equation. Not only would blocking cap regen during warp hit active tanked fits incredibly hard, especially if their guns also use cap, but it would also prevent you from fitting for warp sustainability in the most logical way: by fitting for cap regen.

On a side note, why do you want a fixed warp initiation cost? I can understand why you want it to ignore the planned warp distance, but it seems perfectly fine to keep basing the cost on mass as it is now.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#9 - 2015-05-13 14:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
elitatwo wrote:
Me no like fatigue, make gone.

How about an alternate. I love fatigue so much I want the rest of the game to experience it.
Or the ever popular share the wealth idea.

-1
I am surprised to see no one has posted this yet.
You get to fight and have 0(zero) capacitor left so you die instantly because you cannot run any mods and can barely move about.

-1
Your hated rivals are attacking something in your space. By time your fleet deals with the lousy idea and arrives it is to late they have already destroyed whatever and flown off to where ever.

-1
You have a defined amount of time to get to a staging system for a fleet op and along the way you have to stop and deal with this cap recharge issue, finally arriving to late to join the fleet.

Besides I still do not see what "problem" in the game this suggestion is aimed at solving.
Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-05-13 14:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kione Keikira
Iris Bravemount wrote:

While I like the general idea, I don't like how you seem to want to take cap regen out of the equation. Not only would blocking cap regen during warp hit active tanked fits incredibly hard, especially if their guns also use cap, but it would also prevent you from fitting for warp sustainability in the most logical way: by fitting for cap regen.

On a side note, why do you want a fixed warp initiation cost? I can understand why you want it to ignore the planned warp distance, but it seems perfectly fine to keep basing the cost on mass as it is now.


The amounts were suggestions, they could well be based on mass or whatever but the key fact is to have the larger ships more efficient.

There are several reasons for taking cap regeneration out during warp:


  • There is no possibility of warping forever.
  • There is now a penalty for warping straight into an engagement.
  • The rig "Warp Core Optimizer" would actually have a rather important role.
  • Fits that boast a large number of cap rechargers cannot gain any cap during warp, and thus warp indefinitely.


It does have its disadvantages on certain kinds of fits like you pointed out with the active tanks, although I believe it is near negligible due to most active fits boasting an ASB or a cap booster. Definitely debatable though.

i can't help but feel since warping forever would be eliminated that the warp speeds would have to be bumped up a little to keep travel times similar to previous, slowing overall movement down isn't my intention.

Master of being misunderstood.

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#11 - 2015-05-13 14:40:42 UTC
Kione Keikira wrote:

The amounts were suggestions, they could well be based on mass or whatever but the key fact is to have the larger ships more efficient.

There are several reasons for taking cap regeneration out during warp:


  • There is no possibility of warping forever.
  • There is now a penalty for warping straight into an engagement.
  • The rig "Warp Core Optimizer" would actually have a rather important role.
  • Fits that boast a large number of cap rechargers cannot gain any cap during warp, and thus warp indefinitely.


It does have its disadvantages on certain kinds of fits like you pointed out with the active tanks, although I believe it is near negligible due to most active fits boasting an ASB or a cap booster. Definitely debatable though.

i can't help but feel since warping forever would be eliminated that the warp speeds would have to be bumped up a little to keep travel times similar to previous, slowing overall movement down isn't my intention.


Ok I missunderstood what your goal is then.

I completely disagree with your goal. There shouldn't be a hard mechanic that completely negates your fitting choices. If those choices lead to the ability to warp indefinitely, then great, you most certainly had to sacrifice something else to achieve this.

I agree that warp cap costs shouldn't be completely unnoticeable as they are now, but having a strong capacitor should still pay off.

If you really want to make the warp core optimizer useful, why not change the rig, instead of changing the entire warp mechanics ? I posted a thread about useless rigs just yesterday which lists some ideas for this rig.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#12 - 2015-05-13 15:06:20 UTC
Nope. All the reasons you've given for doing this are very bad. I suspect you've just come up with this idea 'cause its cool' or was it because you got your drake tackled by a frigate?

This hits new players hardest and nerfs their first real PvP experience because they are SLOWER than large ships over a long distance and cant keep up with the rest of their own fleet or chase stragglers of the enemy fleet? seriously?

Why nerf noob frig roams? Why do frigs need a range nerf at all? Why does there need to be a penalty for warping straight into a fight?

Warp costs are significant when it comes to some ships moving through some systems. But the simple ability to move should not become so tedious for sub-caps that they need to 'travel fit'.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2015-05-13 15:07:56 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:


Ok I missunderstood what your goal is then.

I completely disagree with your goal. There shouldn't be a hard mechanic that completely negates your fitting choices. If those choices lead to the ability to warp indefinitely, then great, you most certainly had to sacrifice something else to achieve this.

I agree that warp cap costs shouldn't be completely unnoticeable as they are now, but having a strong capacitor should still pay off.

If you really want to make the warp core optimizer useful, why not change the rig, instead of changing the entire warp mechanics ? I posted a thread about useless rigs just yesterday which lists some ideas for this rig.


Hmm I forgot that the ships that this is aimed on impacting don't usually have slots to spare and replacing one of those slots with a capacitor based item does hurt them a lot, so the sacrifice there is rather significant. I still have concerns on capacitor regeneration being able to overcome the warp cost far too easily as well as completely outstrip the WCO.

At the very least ships with capacitor regen will recover from warps faster, so there is an advantage there and by no means insignificant. Also having cap regeneration disabled doesn't mean you are forced to use the Warp Core Optimizer, for example if you want to warp right into the thick of things and suffer the least amount of cap penalty possible you'd choose the WCO, but if you have time to wait before the fight then a cap regeneration module would suit more. I think it's okay in that sense.

Definitely a very debatable topic.

Master of being misunderstood.

Kione Keikira
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2015-05-13 15:56:04 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Nope. All the reasons you've given for doing this are very bad. I suspect you've just come up with this idea 'cause its cool' or was it because you got your drake tackled by a frigate?

This hits new players hardest and nerfs their first real PvP experience because they are SLOWER than large ships over a long distance and cant keep up with the rest of their own fleet or chase stragglers of the enemy fleet? seriously?

Why nerf noob frig roams? Why do frigs need a range nerf at all? Why does there need to be a penalty for warping straight into a fight?

Warp costs are significant when it comes to some ships moving through some systems. But the simple ability to move should not become so tedious for sub-caps that they need to 'travel fit'.


If a cruiser fleet chases a frigate gang for several jumps the cruiser gang is going to have lower cap when engaging, and if they meet another fleet or the frigate gang has waited for them and thus regenerated most of their cap the cruisers are going to be at a significant disadvantage. It doesn't nerf frigate gangs that much; it's to make Battlships have some sort of advantage when it comes to mobility, namely endurance. Frigates still work incredibly well as a fast response craft, and don't necessarily get run down over a distance due to their bursty nature and can even possibly slip away from a chasing fleet because the hunters don't know where the frigates have gone.

As for not keeping up with the fleet there is the "piggybacking" part of the suggestion. Stragglers are going to be caught within 1 or 2 jumps, otherwise getting backup before the frigate dies is going to be hard so it's not an issue there either. The penalty for warping straight into a fight is there to reduce the strength of reinforcements very slightly, and gives the defenders an advantage possibly leading to an increased chance of someone wanting to take what would usually be an unfavorable fight ( though Worms still aren't going to get any ).

Master of being misunderstood.

MP2008
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#15 - 2015-05-13 16:07:17 UTC
As someone who enjoys fast moving frigate gangs. No.

This would demolish aggressive fleet styles as I'd now have to sit, and wait, for my cap to recharge before entering a fight.

I don't think the risk averse bears are going to wait that long.

This is a terrible idea.
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#16 - 2015-05-13 17:52:05 UTC
-1 for all the reasons already listed and more.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#17 - 2015-05-13 18:13:18 UTC
Just fix the Warp Core Optimizer rig (by making it do something useful), instead of nerfing the rest of the game to make it somewhat useful.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#18 - 2015-05-13 20:16:22 UTC
Remember that time you had that guy trapped in system. He had an agression timer so he couldn't log. That dude was warping from place to place and you kept chasing him around the system in your inty? Remember how much fun it was once you finally caught him? Good, because this change would prevent that from ever happening again.
Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation
Care Factor
#19 - 2015-05-13 20:35:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Cedric
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Remember that time you had that guy trapped in system. He had an agression timer so he couldn't log. That dude was warping from place to place and you kept chasing him around the system in your inty? Remember how much fun it was once you finally caught him? Good, because this change would prevent that from ever happening again.



OR!

What about the time the frig gang hopped in my system and harassed every single player in the system, then when we came out to fight backthe frigs kept warping around and being total dorks and complained that the residents brought a Blob and bubbled the gates, and how its SOOO unfair and all they wanted was just a gud-fight. yeah... I LOVE those times. I would HATE it if the frigs had to sit still for a few seconds to recharge cap before it started its Wuss-parade around my system just for the fun of mouthing off in local...

/rant off

Cedric

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2015-05-13 21:02:04 UTC
Kione Keikira wrote:


Frigates are still the kings of maneuverability they just become limited with their range, say 5 or so jumps before having to rest. This way if you're trying to chase down a frigate gang with cruisers it would become possible with the increased cap cost, but would take you a few jumps to catch them before they have to stop and wait for cap, provided you don't lose track of them. In a single system the frigates should be able to catch you fairly easily since they warp faster, but if you manage to elude them for another 4 systems or so they're not going to get you; escaping from a frigate gang is as hard as it was previously.

The same would be true with cruisers being chased by battleships, albeit over a larger distance. You also forget that I suggested that the support could "piggyback" off of the slower but more cap efficient BS warp. While I do admit that the last point you bring up isn't addressed by this, it's not something that's supposed to be addressed with this proposed change, although I do think 2AU/s is far too slow.



If you can only go a handful of jumps before you need to stop and rest, you are not 'the kings of manoeuvrability'. That title would, like everything else, pass to cruisers.

Why do you think frigate gangs should be discouraged? Why do you think bigger, slower gangs should be able to catch them if they're good enough to get away?

And cruisers being chased by battleships will not g that way at all. Cruisers, especially T2 and T3 ones, have the slots and the cargohold to fit capacitor boosters, which completely undo your entire mechanic.

Why do you think literally every fleet should be T3s with cap boosters?
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