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[Rigs] Repurpose or buff the useless rigs

Author
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#1 - 2015-05-12 18:40:38 UTC
Some of the rigs currently available are completely useless. Allow me to demonstrate:

Liquid cooled electronics

Quote:
This ship modification is designed to reduce the CPU need of modules which require the electronics upgrades skill.


Namely: Sensor Backup Arrays, Signal Amplifiers and Co-Processors (!)

Effect: -10%/-15% CPU usage for T1/T2

Cailbration cost: 100/150 for T1/T2

The Co-Processors don't use CPU, so this is moot.
Sensor Backup Arrays use 18 CPU with a day 1 character, so you could save up to 2.7 CPU per SBA with a T2 rig.
Signal Amplifiers use 25 CPU with a day 1 character, so you could save up to 3.75 CPU per SA with a T2 rig.

The thing is, even on a Purifier (lowest CPU ship), with a day 1 character, a T1 Processor Overclocking rig (150 calibration) will grant you 10.37 CPU.

With a reasonably skilled character, this difference increases dramatically as the CPU use of those modules decreases and the CPU output of the hull increases.

Possible solutions:

- Persist in the same direction and just buff the CPU reduction to 50% (T1) and 75% (T2) for this rig to have some edge-case uses.
- Buff it only slightly (15% and 20%) but make it apply to all EWAR and Prop Jam mods.
- Replace the effect with something useful, like decreased heat generation from overheating or faster heat dissipation after overheating (or both).

Powergrid Subroutine Maximizer

Quote:
This ship modification is designed to reduce a ship's CPU need for all power upgrade modules.


Namely: Reactor Control Units, Power Diagnostic Systems, Capacitor Power Relays, Capacitor Rechargers, Capacitor Flux Coils, Capacitor Batteries, Shield Power Relays and Shield Flux Coils. On a side note, it does not work for Auxilliary Cores for some reason.

Effect: -15%/-20% CPU usage for T1/T2

Calibration Cost: 50/75 for T1/T2

Ok, so this obviously applies to more modules, some of which are very CPU hungry. Let's have a look with a day 1 char on a Punisher and a T2 rig again.

You can save up to 10 CPU per small capacitor battery II with a T2 rig.
Up to 4.4 per Reactor Control Unit, Power Diagnostic System, Shield Power Realay or Shield Flux Coil.
Up to 3 CPU per Capacitor Recharger
Up to 2.8 CPU per Capacitor Flux Coil or
Up to 1.6 CPU per Capacitor Power Relay

As stated above, a T1 Processor Overclocking Rig will grant you 10.37 CPU. So... considering the lower calibration cost, you might think that we have found our use case for this rig... Except no. You don't ever fit enough of these modules for it to be worth it, especially since the t2 versions of those also require a skill that already decreases their CPU usage. And this is the best case scenario for the rig. With better skills and on a hull with more base CPU, the difference only increases.


Possible solutions:

- Persist in this direction and buff the rig effect to 50/75% for T1/T2 and extend the effect to Auxilliary Cores and Cap Boosters
- Don't buff the rig but extend the effect to Auxilliary Cores, Cap Boosters, Neuts, Nos and Cap Transfer Modules.
- Change the effect to something useful like neut reflection or neut/nos/captransfer amount

Algid Energy/Hybrid Administrations Units

Quote:
This ship modification is designed to decrease the CPU need of a ship's energy/hybrid turrets at the expense of increased power grid need for energy/hybrid weapons.


Effect: -10/15% CPU usage for T1/T2

Cost: 50/75 calibration for T1/T2

On a day 1 punisher you would save 8.55 CPU for a full rack of Small Focussed Beam Laser IIs (yes you can't fit those, and the PWG increase would be crippling) with a t2 rig
On a day 1 incursus you would save 12.15 CPU for a full rack of T2 150mm Rails (same as above) with a t2 rig while a CPU rig would grant you 11.02 CPU. Again, with better skills this goes back to favoring the CPU rig.

On a side note: this rig doesn't exist for projectile and missile weapons. Nobody is really missing those.

Possible Solutions:

- Buff the rig by removing the PWG penalty for this rig.
- Buff the rig by increasing the effect to 20/25% for t1/t2
- A combination of the above
- Replace the effect with something useful like reduced heat generation or increased overheating effect.
- Replace the effect with something weird like converting some optimal range to falloff range.

Core Defense Charge Economizer

Quote:
This ship modification is designed to reduce the power need of all shield upgrade modules at the expense of increased signature radius.


Namely: Shield Extenders, Shield Rechargers and Shield Resistance Amplifiers (passive hardeners)

Effect: -10/15% for t1/t2

Cost: 50/75 Calibration for t1/t2

This rig allows you to cram a LSE on a frigate. Except that it will take so many fitting mods, that you'll end up with more shield if you use a MSE and Extender Rigs, with alot more PWG to spare. As it is, there is no practical use case for this rig.
As with the Rigs above, the plain PWG rigs will always provide more grid in other use cases.

Possible Solutions:

- Replace the effect with something useful like shield boost amount, CPU usage reduction for all shield mods, decreased heat generation from active shield mods or increased overheating effect from active shield mods.

Note that simply buffing this rig is not an option, since it would essentially do the same thing as shield extender rigs, except that it would make you fit oversized shield extenders instead of increasing your shield amount directly.



Drone Rigs

Those are not completely useless, but their penalty is too harsh. Maybe it could be replaced by an increased CPU use for Drone and Mining Upgrade modules.


Please share any usecases for these rigs that I may have overlooked or other ideas for solutions.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#2 - 2015-05-12 18:56:14 UTC
Oh and I almost forgot:

Warp Core Optimizers

Quote:
This ship modification is designed to reduce a ship's capacitor need for initiating warp at the expense of the ship's CPU capacity.


Effect: -40/50% capacitor cost for t1/T2

Cost: 50/75 Calibration for T1/T2

Not only do those rigs have a crippling CPU penalty, but they also are completely useless. As long as one has some capacitor left, it will suffice to warp off grid. The fact that this rig is never used despite a strong reduction in capacitor need goes to show just how useless this bonus is.

Possible solutions:

- Replace the effect with something useful like warp core stability
- Replace the effect with something new like decreased speed required to initiate warp (i.e. can warp at 70%/65% max speed instead of 75%). This could provide an interesting alternative to agility rigs if all you're after is time to warp.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2015-05-12 19:21:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Capital Particle Dispersion Projector II? Capital Inverted Signal Field Projector I? All the Capital Electronic Superiority rigs, actually.

Capital Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II? I know that there was this one hilarious scanning Phoenix, but really? Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-05-12 19:26:24 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Capital Particle Dispersion Projector II? Capital Inverted Signal Field Projector I? All the Capital Electronic Superiority rigs, actually.

Capital Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II? I know that there was this one hilarious scanning Phoenix, but really? Roll


Problem with those is the capital part, every other rig also come sin small-medium-large-capital so it only make sence to have those capital rigs.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#5 - 2015-05-12 19:31:34 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Capital Particle Dispersion Projector II? Capital Inverted Signal Field Projector I? All the Capital Electronic Superiority rigs, actually.

Capital Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II? I know that there was this one hilarious scanning Phoenix, but really? Roll


Problem with those is the capital part, every other rig also come sin small-medium-large-capital so it only make sence to have those capital rigs.


Pretty much this. But they could be removed from exploration loot tables.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2015-05-12 19:41:52 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Problem with those is the capital part, every other rig also come sin small-medium-large-capital so it only make sence to have those capital rigs.

Naturally, but these things drop a lot in exploration and they have absolutely no use. As Iris said, I'd very much welcome them being removed from the loot table until CCP manages to introduce ewar capitals or make the rigs useful on the new structures.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#7 - 2015-05-12 19:42:18 UTC
+1

to any useless item reform.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2015-05-12 21:40:23 UTC
Just ignore them like many others things in game.

If they useless doesn't mean we should't have them available in game. Lots of storyline mods are useless but who cares.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#9 - 2015-05-12 21:43:47 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Just ignore them like many others things in game.

If they useless doesn't mean we should't have them available in game. Lots of storyline mods are useless but who cares.


With this kind of mentality, the rebalancing and tiericide effort would never have happened.

Of course, having useless mods in the game isn't a very serious issue, but we sandboxers like to have as many useful tools as possible. In addition, new players might appreciate if all the mods that are available actually have some use.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2015-05-12 21:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Just ignore them like many others things in game.

If they useless doesn't mean we should't have them available in game. Lots of storyline mods are useless but who cares.


With this kind of mentality, the rebalancing and tiericide effort would never have happened.

Of course, having useless mods in the game isn't a very serious issue, but we sandboxers like to have as many useful tools as possible. In addition, new players might appreciate if all the mods that are available actually have some use.



Helloooo!

12 years have just has and we seems to be even more far from perfectness vs 10 yrs back.

Welcome to modern Eve.

My mentality is stronger than yours anyway.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#11 - 2015-05-12 22:05:44 UTC
Having all kinds of rigs progress from small to capital isn't necessary. Like among caps: Useful rigs are commonly tank, damage, warpspeed and capacitor. Maybe there are some lockspeed rigs for whatever reason.

So instead of just having anything progress from small to cap, rigs targeted to enable more diverse things for differently sized ships might be cool. Like Medium and Large MJD cycletime or cooldown rigs. Truly jumpy marauders. Don't need those in small or cap sizes.

So yes, away with the most obviously useless stuff, I dig it.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2015-05-12 22:25:22 UTC
Rigicide!

Yep, roll it into the metacide/tiericide efforts currently ongoing and make it happen.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#13 - 2015-05-12 22:25:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Khorvek
I agree with this to an extent. Personally, I woudl think it'd be nice for rigs to get buffs specific to the reason they're used.

Most rigs are clones of each other such the falloff rig. The falloff rig for energy turrets, proj turrets, and hybrid turrets, increase falloff by some small percentage. This is practically useless for small energy turrets in particular, with a ~500m falloff on pulses, producing a negligible benefit. On the other side of the spectrum, this rig is a powerhouse for projectile turrets.

If the boosting ability to falloff was slightly larger for energy turrets, it could have some value. On the other hand, if things go that direction, homogenization of system ranges could occur, to the point that the only reason to pick one weapon system or another is damage and cap, which would put proj back in king position unless proj were nerfed (not saying I don't think small arty are ridiculously op already).

In this instance, removal might be best. I'd rather see a game where there's some equipment geared towards certain types of weapons but not others, than see a bunch of useless rigs.

The only saving grace of the small falloff rigs for energy turrets is the fact that they're so damn cheap. If you're looking to skimp on ISK, could be worth it. Who knows.

Regarding crippling disadvantages, you used to not be able to fit rigs at all unless you had the skill to use it. Upgrading your skill level for the specific set of rigs is intended to get rid of a large percenatage of crippling penalties.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.

Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#14 - 2015-05-12 22:37:19 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Capital Particle Dispersion Projector II? Capital Inverted Signal Field Projector I? All the Capital Electronic Superiority rigs, actually.

Capital Gravity Capacitor Upgrade II? I know that there was this one hilarious scanning Phoenix, but really? Roll


Problem with those is the capital part, every other rig also come sin small-medium-large-capital so it only make sence to have those capital rigs.


Pretty much this. But they could be removed from exploration loot tables.

What if you were able to reprocess them into a percentage of their original base materials? Maybe then you could get some use out of the Capital sized ones...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...

mrjknyazev
Zugzwang.
Hazardous Company
#15 - 2015-05-13 00:03:10 UTC  |  Edited by: mrjknyazev
While in exceptionaly rare cases, algid administrations and charge economizers come handy when you need to squeeze something in your fittings, but can't spare 150 calibration on overclocking or 100 on acillary current router. They are too niche to be widely used, but too handy to be changed or removed. Leave them as it is.

Liquid cooled electronics and Powergrid Subroutine Maximizers on the other hand are joke.
Drone rigs indeed might need a rebalance.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-05-13 00:12:10 UTC
mrjknyazev wrote:
While in exceptionaly rare cases, algid administrations and charge economizers come handy when you need to squeeze something in your fittings, but can't spare 150 calibration on overclocking or 100 on acillary current router. They are too niche to be widely used, but too handy to be changed or removed. Leave them as it is.

Liquid cooled electronics and Powergrid Subroutine Maximizers on the other hand are joke.
Drone rigs indeed might need a rebalance.


There is no problem with drone rigs, not fitting guns leave you enough CPU to use drone rigs! The problem is when you expect to have shield tank (cpu heavy), drone dmg mods (cpu heavy), drone tracking mods (CPU heavy) AND drone rigs (again CPU heavy).
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#17 - 2015-05-13 03:35:53 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Just ignore them like many others things in game.

If they useless doesn't mean we should't have them available in game. Lots of storyline mods are useless but who cares.


With this kind of mentality, the rebalancing and tiericide effort would never have happened.

Of course, having useless mods in the game isn't a very serious issue, but we sandboxers like to have as many useful tools as possible. In addition, new players might appreciate if all the mods that are available actually have some use.



Helloooo!

12 years have just has and we seems to be even more far from perfectness vs 10 yrs back.

Welcome to modern Eve.



Going to have to say this. Impact of tiericide and metacide I just don't see as being paradigm shifting levels.

tiericide with ships by and large has us ssdd. Its just now the fleet preferred tier 3 BS is now an ABS. Classification name changed, same ships (some stat tweaking ofc...but not omfg the ship is so different now). Any changes to fotm have been due to non x-icides. They have been due to nerfs and buffs put another way. My usual rant....lolrox still sucked after tiericide. It was medium hybrid buff that got them a second look (as well as other caldari gun boats).

My other rant is scorpion. Still the cheaper route than falcon only, still a primary no brainer...all tiericide did was make it more expensive. One of its few endearing qualities to me taken away.



With pending prop mod changes (the first major area ccp has metacided imo to where we can see some changes in fits imo if it has its intended effectr) I will wait and see if this shakes anything up or will the same now new named and metacided item be what I see in fitting threads and kb scouring. TBH...all I am happy to see from this is the return of old school names, was missed by many including me lol.



Rest of this...I'd have to ask how do we determine useless rigs. Some may use them. Are they plastered all over kb's? No. Are kb's a good source of what all use in eve? Again no. Fleet master fitters in leadership pick the fleet fit deemed SOP....and the huddled masses follow that build. Whether you like it or not you just do it. If not blobbers its attack of the top hits on battleclinic.


Well that and some change in the future could make these viable. I'd be looking at warp speed rigs. Made useful after many years with warp speed changes really. Borderline pointless in the past before the changes.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#18 - 2015-05-13 14:46:06 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Rest of this...I'd have to ask how do we determine useless rigs. Some may use them. Are they plastered all over kb's? No. Are kb's a good source of what all use in eve? Again no. Fleet master fitters in leadership pick the fleet fit deemed SOP....and the huddled masses follow that build. Whether you like it or not you just do it. If not blobbers its attack of the top hits on battleclinic.


Well that and some change in the future could make these viable. I'd be looking at warp speed rigs. Made useful after many years with warp speed changes really. Borderline pointless in the past before the changes.


As to how we determine rig uselessness: by demonstration and maths.

I also agree that some of them could become useful in more cases and make the players think more about the choice between those listed in my OP and flat CPU/PWG rigs, which is why I included small buffs as possible solutions to simply make an almost never used rig a bit more useful. Not saying that every mod/rig should be all over killboards by any stretch. Just that completely underused game assets might be worth taking a look at them and nodging them in the right direction.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Alexis Nightwish
#19 - 2015-05-15 00:07:08 UTC
Engine Thermal Shielding - This ship modification is designed to increase the duration of a ship's afterburner or microwarpdrive modules at the expense of armor amount.

Possibly useful for BC/BS but anything smaller wants reduced duration for slingshotting and other piloting techniques.

I'd rather have this reduce the amount of heat generation for OH of prop mods, or reduce the cap use and duration of prop mods.


Stasis Drone Augmentor - This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's stasis web drones' factor of velocity decrease at the expense of the ship's CPU capacity.

If the drones didn't suck this wouldn't suck. Would prefer if this gave an advantage to all EWAR drones so if the drones were ever fixed this rig would suddenly become useful.


Signal Disruption Amplifier - This ship modification is designed to reduce a ship's capacitor need for ECM and ECM Burst modules.

Like all the rigs that reduce cap usage for a set of modules, it's worthless because a CCC does the job better. Also, I would never use a rig slot and calibration for this when I can use a Particle Dispersion Augmentor (ECM strength). I don't know what this rig could be changed to to make it useful. The name already sounds like it's the ECM or damp strength rig, so at least I'd change the name, or axe the rig from the game.


Signal Focusing Kit - This ship modification is designed to increase the scan speed of modules which require the electronics skill (cargo scanner, ship scanner and survey scanner), at the expense of shields.

Sacrifice my shields to increase the speed of these modules? Wut? I'd rather see this rig increase the ship's sensor strength, and by a lot to make it worth using. Or by a little and remove the shield drawback.


Targeting Systems Stabilizer - This ship modification is designed to reduce a ship's targeting delay after de-cloaking at the expense of shields.

The benefit of this is a joke. Change it from -10%/-15% to -50%/-67% and change the penalty from shields to increased reactivation delay for cloaking modules.


Semiconductor Memory Cell - This ship modification is designed to increase a ship's capacitor capacity.

I never use this. The CCC gives better return for the same calibration. Nudging up the benefit would probably fix it. Ex: from +15%/+20% to +25%/+33%.


Algid [weapon type] Administrations Unit - In addition to your suggestions on this above, I'd like to see this added to projectile turrets. Currently it's only for lasers and hybrids.


[weapon type] Armbit Extension - This ship modification is designed to increase the accuracy falloff range of a ship's turrets at the expense of increased power grid need for them.

I would like to see the benefit increased as the Locus Coordinator (+optimal rig) gives the same bonus, but optimal is more beneficial. Increase the Armbit bonus from +15%/+20% to +25%/+33%.


Rocket Fuel Cache Partition - This ship modification is designed to increase maximum missile flight time at the expense of increased CPU requirements for launchers.

I never use these. Hydraulic Bay Thrusters give you the same range benefit, but you hit your target sooner, and for the same cost. I'd like to see the calibration cost reduced or the benefit increased slightly for the Fuel Cache Partition. Also remove the word 'Rocket' from the name as it confuses newbies who think it only affects rockets.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers

Count Szadek
United Delta Quadrant
Kazon Coalition
#20 - 2015-05-15 00:32:38 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Oh and I almost forgot:

Warp Core Optimizers

Quote:
This ship modification is designed to reduce a ship's capacitor need for initiating warp at the expense of the ship's CPU capacity.


Effect: -40/50% capacitor cost for t1/T2

Cost: 50/75 Calibration for T1/T2

Not only do those rigs have a crippling CPU penalty, but they also are completely useless. As long as one has some capacitor left, it will suffice to warp off grid. The fact that this rig is never used despite a strong reduction in capacitor need goes to show just how useless this bonus is.

Possible solutions:

- Replace the effect with something useful like warp core stability
- Replace the effect with something new like decreased speed required to initiate warp (i.e. can warp at 70%/65% max speed instead of 75%). This could provide an interesting alternative to agility rigs if all you're after is time to warp.



i actually disagree with this one being useless as it can help a new player who has not trained Warp Drive Operation. Also, I have used it on scout alts when I was still training skills on them. With that being said, the CPU penalty is not needed for this IMO. I would ra ther have the penalty changed then the effect of the rig.
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