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Turret Sig Radius

Author
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-05-11 02:35:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
An interesting little bit about turret balance is that while tracking speed plays a heavy factor into which size guns within a given class (example would be quad light beam lasers vs heavy beam lasers), sig radius doesn't come into it despite being larger or smaller weapons.

What do you think would be the advantages and disadvantages about reducing turret sig radius on smaller-caliber weapons in the game? I could see it benefitting 3-tiered weapons like beam lasers and railguns, and would give people more reasons to fit them as the lower sig would allow for better damage application against smaller targets, especially on the medium and large levels. Thoughts?
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-05-11 02:38:52 UTC
Make it larger sig radius for larget tiers instead of smaller for the lower tiers (tracking on the lower tier guns is already good)
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-05-11 02:40:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Make it larger sig radius for larget tiers instead of smaller for the lower tiers (tracking on the lower tier guns is already good)

Why not both?

Example would be Heavy beams would go to 150m, and quad lights would go down to 100m. Two-tiered guns could split it so Focused Pulses in this example would be 115m and Heavy Pulse would be 135m sig.
Kirkra
The Versa-Ex Corp
#4 - 2015-05-11 13:09:26 UTC
I assume you meant "Signature Resolution" rather than "Signature Radius" (which doesn't even make any sense for turrets, unless you want to target and shoot specific modules on your opponent).

Increasing or decreasing the signature resolution on a turret has the same effect as modifying the base tracking speed accordingly, since it's not modifiable. The very same, no exceptions - check the hit chance formula. It wouldn't benefit 3-tier systems since the change is exactly the same as modifying the tracking - which already differs in weapon sizes.

So your idea is to - what - decrease the effective tracking of the lighter weapons because you found a new attribute and want to play with it? And make it even less obvious for people on what the damage application is going to be by adding an extra variable? (It's already a variable, but only has 3 fixed values, so a constant for practical purposes)

If there was a way of influencing your turrets signature resolution (And no, changing the targets signature radius doesn't work for this), then we could talk - since the bonus would be multiplicative with tracking. As it stands - this idea makes things more obscure for those without a stem-ish background, while having the same effect on most setups as a much simpler change.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#5 - 2015-05-11 14:16:16 UTC
Kirkra wrote:
I assume you meant "Signature Resolution" rather than "Signature Radius" (which doesn't even make any sense for turrets, unless you want to target and shoot specific modules on your opponent).

Increasing or decreasing the signature resolution on a turret has the same effect as modifying the base tracking speed accordingly, since it's not modifiable. The very same, no exceptions - check the hit chance formula. It wouldn't benefit 3-tier systems since the change is exactly the same as modifying the tracking - which already differs in weapon sizes.

So your idea is to - what - decrease the effective tracking of the lighter weapons because you found a new attribute and want to play with it? And make it even less obvious for people on what the damage application is going to be by adding an extra variable? (It's already a variable, but only has 3 fixed values, so a constant for practical purposes)

If there was a way of influencing your turrets signature resolution (And no, changing the targets signature radius doesn't work for this), then we could talk - since the bonus would be multiplicative with tracking. As it stands - this idea makes things more obscure for those without a stem-ish background, while having the same effect on most setups as a much simpler change.


Its not really that obscure of a change for most people. It would actually be a good comparison between RLML/RHML and turrets. RLML are frigate sized missiles on a larger hull. Why cant the smallest tier turret have slightly better sig resolution? The biggest frigate ac is 200mm. But dual 180s track worse, which are 20mm smaller. Their base tracking could be worse, but sig resolution should be lower.

I think this could be interesting, but base tracking might need to be nerfed slighty to compensate.

Also, how does increasing a target's sig not help sig resolution? If a mwd frig/dessie has a sig of 310, and we add a TP, increasing sig over 400m. Then, assuming my tracking can keep up, my BS sized weapons should apply well to a frig. In fact they do.

Ive flown bait tornados fit with dual 425s and killed plenty of frigates. Paired with TP and falloff bonus on hull, i can apply to mwd frigs fairly well. Even kill them at 2-5km by using transversal (webs/tp). So yes boosting a targets sig does affect how well you track it.
Kirkra
The Versa-Ex Corp
#6 - 2015-05-11 15:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirkra
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Its not really that obscure of a change for most people. It would actually be a good comparison between RLML/RHML and turrets. RLML are frigate sized missiles on a larger hull. Why cant the smallest tier turret have slightly better sig resolution? The biggest frigate ac is 200mm. But dual 180s track worse, which are 20mm smaller. Their base tracking could be worse, but sig resolution should be lower.

I think this could be interesting, but base tracking might need to be nerfed slighty to compensate.

Also, how does increasing a target's sig not help sig resolution? If a mwd frig/dessie has a sig of 310, and we add a TP, increasing sig over 400m. Then, assuming my tracking can keep up, my BS sized weapons should apply well to a frig. In fact they do.

Ive flown bait tornados fit with dual 425s and killed plenty of frigates. Paired with TP and falloff bonus on hull, i can apply to mwd frigs fairly well. Even kill them at 2-5km by using transversal (webs/tp). So yes boosting a targets sig does affect how well you track it.


You misunderstood me - I didn't say that changing the sig radius of the target doesn't help with shooting it. What I said is that the ability to change the targets sig radius doesn't add any additional benefits to this "different base sig resolution" idea. Being able to modify your turrets sig resolution does.

And is it really not obscure? Do you really like the idea that when you compare the tracking of 2 cruiser-sized guns you have to divide their tracking by their (differing) sig resolution, instead of a straight-off comparison of tracking speeds? Right now you just look to see which of the 2 numbers is greater (since all cruiser sized guns have the same sig resolution), with this you have to do maths just to see what has better application.

There's a reason all EFT-style programs list align time, instead of inertia + mass. That's the stat that everyone cares about. Should this idea come though, then instead of listing tracking speed for a gun, they would list TS/SR, and EVEs "attributes" tab in items would become even more useless. All this while not adding anything to the game, except matching the caliber of autocannons to their sig resolution (not forgetting that the notion of caliber is somewhat alien for lasers).

All I'm saying - this adds more complexity for the sake of complexity. Reducing the sig resolution of a gun by 50% is the same as doubling its base tracking, because you can't modify your own sig resolution in any way.
Arla Sarain
#7 - 2015-05-11 21:58:52 UTC
Reducing turret signature resolution IS the same thing as increasing tracking. So this would be kinda pointless, you could just improve the tracking and it'd have more feedback to the player. The impact of resolution is rather obscure to the casual layman.

The merit that a ships signature radius has is that it makes you harder to hit without you having to go faster. Going faster means you screw up your own tracking, because angular speed is relative. Whilst sig radius is absolute. Hence changing sig radius makes sense.

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-05-11 22:56:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Arla Sarain wrote:
Reducing turret signature resolution IS the same thing as increasing tracking. So this would be kinda pointless, you could just improve the tracking and it'd have more feedback to the player. The impact of resolution is rather obscure to the casual layman.

The merit that a ships signature radius has is that it makes you harder to hit without you having to go faster. Going faster means you screw up your own tracking, because angular speed is relative. Whilst sig radius is absolute. Hence changing sig radius makes sense.

^^ this, the dark squid knows her ****, the red squid (op) doesn't (sorry)

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-05-11 23:07:58 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Reducing turret signature resolution IS the same thing as increasing tracking. So this would be kinda pointless, you could just improve the tracking and it'd have more feedback to the player. The impact of resolution is rather obscure to the casual layman.

The merit that a ships signature radius has is that it makes you harder to hit without you having to go faster. Going faster means you screw up your own tracking, because angular speed is relative. Whilst sig radius is absolute. Hence changing sig radius makes sense.

^^ this, the dark squid knows her ****, the red squid (op) doesn't (sorry)

To be completely fair, I have most often used missiles and small turrets for the majority of my pvp activities; I understand how missile damage application works very well, but I'm not as familiar with how it worked with guns, especially on the larger scale. I had assumed it was somewhat similar to missiles, but getting walloped by sniper battleships and ABCs is a thing, soo....

I will admit my knowledge is lacking a bit in that department, but I do know it would be a good thing. Also Aria, didn't you just contradict yourself? You said tracking and sig radius are the same, but you said just after that that sig radius deals with absolute damage modifiers instead of tracking speed. Can you please clarify?
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#10 - 2015-05-11 23:46:30 UTC
The way that Sig res works means that halving Sig res has the the exact same effect as doubling tracking.

They arent one in the same, however they effect application in the same way. It only really matters when you're trying to use transversal in your overview. Turrets get good hits against targets of their own size if transversal is lower than tracking. If a target is half the size of the turret Sig, then transversal needs to be half of tracking to get the same kind of hits.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#11 - 2015-05-11 23:51:49 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The way that Sig res works means that halving Sig res has the the exact same effect as doubling tracking.

They arent one in the same, however they effect application in the same way. It only really matters when you're trying to use transversal in your overview. Turrets get good hits against targets of their own size if transversal is lower than tracking. If a target is half the size of the turret Sig, then transversal needs to be half of tracking to get the same kind of hits.

Ahh ok that clears things up a bit, especially with how sniper boats work. I will stick by my assessment with the lowered sig since the turrets that benefit in this instance would have shorter base ranges anyway, which falls in line what you've explained.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#12 - 2015-05-12 00:06:10 UTC
It may be more intuitive to reduce the Sig res rather than increasing tracking. Either way I agree. There may be some value in increasing the application of some lower grade, and less used, weapons.

Id prefer that to the often proposed 'multi-weapons'.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Arla Sarain
#13 - 2015-05-12 00:20:30 UTC
There was a thread a while back that suggested to remove signature resolution of guns entirely and truncate the value into tracking.
As in , a 0.5rad/s tracking small gun (40 res) would become 20rad/s with resolution of 1.

The problem with changing signature resolution of guns is that it acts as a normaliser - comparing 0.5rad/s tracking to 0.4 and 0.6 angular speed is easy, its faster and slower respectively.

But comparing 20 to 0.4 and 0.6 is difficult. The magnitude is larger but you can't tell which is slower or faster.

Ergo, don't touch turret sig resolution. What would be a good idea is to add to the new opportunity system and describe how big guns against small targets affect the tracking, numerically. Which is mildly trivial (Large turrets are on average 3 times slower against medium and 10 times slower against small targets than the tracking implies).
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#14 - 2015-05-12 01:36:20 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
There was a thread a while back that suggested to remove signature resolution of guns entirely and truncate the value into tracking.
As in , a 0.5rad/s tracking small gun (40 res) would become 20rad/s with resolution of 1.

The problem with changing signature resolution of guns is that it acts as a normaliser - comparing 0.5rad/s tracking to 0.4 and 0.6 angular speed is easy, its faster and slower respectively.

But comparing 20 to 0.4 and 0.6 is difficult. The magnitude is larger but you can't tell which is slower or faster.

Ergo, don't touch turret sig resolution. What would be a good idea is to add to the new opportunity system and describe how big guns against small targets affect the tracking, numerically. Which is mildly trivial (Large turrets are on average 3 times slower against medium and 10 times slower against small targets than the tracking implies).

Would you support reducing their sig res if they were remade into 'burst' weapons like the rapid launchers? I would love to see bonused dual heavy pulse apocs tearing it up on the battlefield. :D
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#15 - 2015-05-12 01:52:54 UTC
Yes, already exists but only for missiles.

See signature.
Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static
No Vacancies.
#16 - 2015-05-12 01:58:33 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:

Would you support reducing their sig res if they were remade into 'burst' weapons like the rapid launchers? I would love to see bonused dual heavy pulse apocs tearing it up on the battlefield. :D

There is no reason to do this at all as explained before. The turret signature resolution is directly impacting the tracking of the turret. A turret with 0.1 rad/s tracking and 100m sig resolution is the same as a turret with 0.05 rad/s tracking and 200m sig resolution. The reason that turret signature resolution exists is to make it easier to see at a glance how well it will track a target. But i will leave it up to you to see which of these theoretical turrets track better than the other and see what you think.

0.144 rad/s 180m sig resolution
0.1215 rad/s 135m sig resolution
0.165 rad/s 165m sig resolution
0.154 rad/s 140m sig resolution
0.12 rad/s 100m sig resolution

The list above have the same tracking as the list below and in the same order.

0.1 rad/s 125m sig resolution
0.1125 rad/s 125m sig resolution
0.125 rad/s 125m sig resolution
0.1375 rad/s 125m sig resolution
0.15 rad/s 125m sig resolution
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#17 - 2015-05-12 03:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
http://www.hostile.dk/files/eve/eve-tracking101.swf

That is indeed the case, doesn't mean these lower tier Battleship & (Battle)cruiser turrets can't be differentiated in the same way as Rapid Missile Launchers are, and it brings built-in defense against being Tracking Disrupted. Smile

The sub-2.5 km deadzones against cruisers and upto 10 km against frigates/destroyers, on turret Battleships that can easily be created and exploited are hilarious - Eve tracking doesn't account for the dynamic signature radius, which the targets do experience as a function of range in the real world, or any logical system.

At all V skills and on unbonused hull,

A Mega Pulse laser II has 400 m Signature resolution and 0.042 Tracking.
A Heavy Pulse laser II has 125 m Signature resolution and 0.102 Tracking, or 3.2 times better Sig res and 2.42 times better tracking.

It it arguable whether the potential paper DPS and extra range offsets for that, but as the history has shown - against T2 and T3 cruisers it doesn't. Battleship weapons with default 300 metre (125 * 2.42), or 350 m (125 * 2.81, which is the average between these two ratios) Signature resolutions would have been far more balanced and reasonable.

Accounting for the speeds that the smaller ships can achieve - dead in the water. Smile

Then there's the point of drone Battleships - unbonused Ogre II have have 0.54 Tracking and 400 m Sig res, and as the targets generally try to flee, or otherwise maneuver - the drones are always tracking optimally, and are completely independent of the host ship's range, speed, or direction.

The Light blue bar in the chart in my signature is drone PvP damage, Orange is Energy turrets, Yellow - Projectiles, Dark blue - Hybrids.

Welcome to Cruisers & Drones Online.
Arla Sarain
#18 - 2015-05-12 08:29:18 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
There was a thread a while back that suggested to remove signature resolution of guns entirely and truncate the value into tracking.
As in , a 0.5rad/s tracking small gun (40 res) would become 20rad/s with resolution of 1.

The problem with changing signature resolution of guns is that it acts as a normaliser - comparing 0.5rad/s tracking to 0.4 and 0.6 angular speed is easy, its faster and slower respectively.

But comparing 20 to 0.4 and 0.6 is difficult. The magnitude is larger but you can't tell which is slower or faster.

Ergo, don't touch turret sig resolution. What would be a good idea is to add to the new opportunity system and describe how big guns against small targets affect the tracking, numerically. Which is mildly trivial (Large turrets are on average 3 times slower against medium and 10 times slower against small targets than the tracking implies).

Would you support reducing their sig res if they were remade into 'burst' weapons like the rapid launchers? I would love to see bonused dual heavy pulse apocs tearing it up on the battlefield. :D

The road to burst weapons, if there ever was one, is not related to sig resolution in any way.

I'd rather they went through ranges and tracking entirely. There is no sig tanking on frigate vs frigate level for example. Except some niche cases, and even then its supported by TDs and frequently involves simply being out of range and not actually sig tanking.

Frig tracking is way too good to deal with other frigs, but the range in general is heavy towards scram kiting, where tracking is almost irrelevant. On the other hand, it's not too great against light drones.

To employ any form of sig tanking strategy as a frig without the use of TDs you need to be point blank. The trouble with that is that people just burn in a straight line. So you need to be extremely fast, amongst agile, have enough to tank to get into orbit, and then enough DPS to not give reinforcements a chance. Which is difficult to accommodate with the slots and fitting space frigs have.

Hence the notion that kiting requires more skill. Its cos brawling has few strategies beyond the slingshot maneuver.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#19 - 2015-05-12 13:54:09 UTC
Pretty sure the premise of the question is flawed. Signature Resolution, though it is static, is still important in the turret damage formula.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#20 - 2015-05-12 14:24:17 UTC
Here's the thing:

If you really want to compare turret tracking, you have to normalize their sig res (divide the tracking of all turrets by their respective sig res). This would show you just how much less tracking larger turrets have.

However, this is not always a practical info to have, since the practical tracking (in angular velocity) in a given situation is dependent on the target's signature radius. This is why the tracking is stated with a sig res that corresponds to an average target of the same size category.

This is not very intuitive, because while it's a balanced system gameplay wise, it is complete nonsense and doesn't work like that IRL. Simply because IRL, the turret would have the same turn speed, no matter the size of the target.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

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