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[Carnyx] The Jackdaw

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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#121 - 2015-05-11 23:38:29 UTC
I'd like to second the opinion about this seeing more usage as a pve boat. The potential for passive tanking on this ship is absolutely monumental, especially if it's a PVE fit completely devoted to that. I can see a strong LM 1mn ab fit in defensive mode running lowsec anoms quite handily, and be affordable and compact enough for most people to use regularly.

It's a pocket tengu! Big smile
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#122 - 2015-05-11 23:46:07 UTC
Also, after comparing its fitting options to the Svipul, I think while it won't be quite as bad as my initial impression would have indicated. While it will still be a bit tight on CPU, I think its fitting will be closer to the Flycatcher, which can fairly easily support a double MSE build with lights. CPU might be a little tight since it has 6 mids and 10 less CPU than the flycatcher, but the effective powergrid rating is actually better than the Flycatcher with lights, since it has 2 less fitted launchers.

The extra low slot should work well enough; I'm thinking a Power Diagnostic and a BCU will be standard on the lows for double MSE passive tanked builds for PvE. Hell, I'd probably put a cal navy PDS on there just to make sure everything's rounded out properly. Should be fun running anoms in it. Cool
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#123 - 2015-05-11 23:48:21 UTC
So if you go with a MicroAux and BCU in the lows, are there any crazy things you can pull out of this ship?
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#124 - 2015-05-12 00:42:07 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
I understand that a speedy 10mn missile lobbing dessie would be overpowered, but 160 is beyond cruiser slow. Every cruiser in the game is literally faster than it by quite a bit and even 1 CBC (the Hurricane at 165m/s) is faster than it. Surely it doesn't need to be THAT slow. I mean this thing is about 50% slower than a Corax. What is its role/niche exactly? We already have POS missile turrets.


160 x 1.25 = 200m/s with Navigation V.
Thanks? All the values I used were base speed so my statement remains completely unchanged...
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#125 - 2015-05-12 01:12:36 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
So if you go with a MicroAux and BCU in the lows, are there any crazy things you can pull out of this ship?

Lets find out..... Will be working on this for a bit, expect a couple asinine but amusing fits.

Concepts I will be trying for:
LSE - Not without implants, which I'm not willing to muck with when hand hacking the spreadsheet for this. Not even dual MAPC, with 2x t2 ACR
10mn AB - Rockets, yes! especially post propmod tieracide. Can even do 10mn + MSEII with an ACRI and a navy aux core. Comes out with ~3PG and 30CPU with all 5s and no implants with the soon to exist compact and a navy power core. Till then, a cheap 3% for PG should make it work. Would need to drop the MSE to get it with LMLs.
LASB- Also a practical no. Might be just barely possible with implants.
MWD + 2x MASB - yes, without fitting mods, and with a BCS for rockets.
MWD + 2x MSE - Op success. nearly perfectly eats the PG difference between 10mn compact AB and t2 1mn MWD

10mn AB + MSE fit
Highs
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II

Mid slots
Medium shield extender II
10MN Compact AB
Adaptive Invulnerability field II
Stasis webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis webifier II

Low slots
Navy Micro Auxillary power core
Damage control II

Rig slots
Ancillery Current Router II
Em Screen reinforcer II
Core defense field extender II



1mn MWD + dual MSE fit
Highs
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II

Mid slots
Medium shield extender II
1MN MWD
Adaptive Invulnerability field II
Stasis webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Medium shield extender II

Low slots
Navy Micro Auxillary power core
Damage control II

Rig slots
Ancillery Current Router II
Em Screen reinforcer II
Core defense field extender II


1MN MWD + dual MASB

Highs
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II
Rocket launcher II

Mid slots
Medium Ancillery shield Booster I
1MN MWD II
Adaptive Invulnerability field II
Stasis webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis webifier II
Medium Ancillery shield Booster I

Low slots
Nanofiber internal structure II
Damage control II

Rig slots
Small Rigor Catalyst II
Em Screen reinforcer II
Core defense field extender II

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Justin Cody
War Firm
#126 - 2015-05-12 01:14:12 UTC
Altrue wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Quote:
Powergrid is very tight for most fittings, but CPU is much more generous.


am I going to end up using best named (that means compact btw, your tiericide didn't work) launchers? sure am glad I trained LM spec 5 :(


You most certainly are going to if the PWG stays that way. I don't really get the whole effort on making the PWG so tight, there is really no need to sanction 10mn AB fits given that their speed will be laughable at best.


Caldari - Now Issued with CCPreNerf Protection Plan™Never Patch Without It
[*] (Restrictions Apply Only to Caldari - The rest get a free pass because screw you that's why)
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#127 - 2015-05-12 01:17:23 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
Justin Cody wrote:
Altrue wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Quote:
Powergrid is very tight for most fittings, but CPU is much more generous.


am I going to end up using best named (that means compact btw, your tiericide didn't work) launchers? sure am glad I trained LM spec 5 :(


You most certainly are going to if the PWG stays that way. I don't really get the whole effort on making the PWG so tight, there is really no need to sanction 10mn AB fits given that their speed will be laughable at best.


Caldari - Now Issued with CCPreNerf Protection Plan™ Never Patch Without It
  • (Restrictions Apply Only to Caldari - The rest get a free pass because screw you that's why)
    • It has several viable, if not excessively great, LML fits.
    The t2 LMLs only eat 43.4% of the grid at all skills 5..... So, whats the problem? Arty svipul has t2 280s eat 63.4%, and Beam confessor drops 60% of the PG on t2 small focused beams. Of the 3, after filling the hardpoints with the biggest longrange weapon it has, it has the most PG left over.

    Talking more,

    Flying crazier,

    And drinking more

    Making battleships worth the warp
    Specia1 K
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #128 - 2015-05-12 02:36:36 UTC
    James Baboli wrote:
    Justin Cody wrote:
    Altrue wrote:
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Quote:
    Powergrid is very tight for most fittings, but CPU is much more generous.


    am I going to end up using best named (that means compact btw, your tiericide didn't work) launchers? sure am glad I trained LM spec 5 :(


    You most certainly are going to if the PWG stays that way. I don't really get the whole effort on making the PWG so tight, there is really no need to sanction 10mn AB fits given that their speed will be laughable at best.


    Caldari - Now Issued with CCPreNerf Protection Plan™ Never Patch Without It
  • (Restrictions Apply Only to Caldari - The rest get a free pass because screw you that's why)
    • It has several viable, if not excessively great, LML fits.
    The t2 LMLs only eat 43.4% of the grid at all skills 5..... So, whats the problem? Arty svipul has t2 280s eat 63.4%, and Beam confessor drops 60% of the PG on t2 small focused beams. Of the 3, after filling the hardpoints with the biggest longrange weapon it has, it has the most PG left over.


    Thanks for doing some of the necessary calcs on fits.

    You might want to look at a sebo or targeting rig. That extra tank (and sig radius) you have is going to be eating away while you watch your targeting circle spinning on your opponent.

    Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

    Thunderdome
    James Baboli
    Warp to Pharmacy
    #129 - 2015-05-12 02:41:06 UTC
    Specia1 K wrote:

    Thanks for doing some of the necessary calcs on fits.

    You might want to look at a sebo or targeting rig. That extra tank (and sig radius) you have is going to be eating away while you watch your targeting circle spinning on your opponent.

    I am so used to battleships that it doesn't bug me. Mostly fly either solo bastionades, shield vigilants or incursion battleships, so waiting for things to lock isn't something I think about alot.

    Talking more,

    Flying crazier,

    And drinking more

    Making battleships worth the warp
    Iyacia Cyric'ai
    Lai Dai Counterintelligence
    #130 - 2015-05-12 02:50:50 UTC
    James Baboli wrote:
    Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
    So if you go with a MicroAux and BCU in the lows, are there any crazy things you can pull out of this ship?
    10mn AB - Rockets, yes! especially post propmod tieracide. Can even do 10mn + MSEII with an ACRI and a navy aux core. Comes out with ~3PG and 30CPU with all 5s and no implants with the soon to exist compact and a navy power core. Till then, a cheap 3% for PG should make it work. Would need to drop the MSE to get it with LMLs.
    I

    10mn AB isn't that exciting when you realise that you'll be going about as fast as a 1mn AB fitted on a frigate since the base speed of this thing is so slow. It's basically a hookbill with bait level tank. I.e. it'll be the same as flying a hookbill (i.e no one brawls you because they suspect double webs and everyone kites you, and you're too slow to catch anything that doesn't want to fight you).
    Specia1 K
    State Protectorate
    Caldari State
    #131 - 2015-05-12 02:52:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Specia1 K
    James Baboli wrote:
    Specia1 K wrote:

    Thanks for doing some of the necessary calcs on fits.

    You might want to look at a sebo or targeting rig. That extra tank (and sig radius) you have is going to be eating away while you watch your targeting circle spinning on your opponent.

    I am so used to battleships that it doesn't bug me. Mostly fly either solo bastionades, shield vigilants or incursion battleships, so waiting for things to lock isn't something I think about alot.


    Heh. I'm thinking that this ship is going to need to apply damage quickly to succeed. Nobody is going to stay around to brawl it out with those webs.

    edit. Was hoping for more viable LM fits, just to mix up the meta. If everyone can guess your setup and you are slow, you are not going to do well. Agree that this should be a decent PVE ship though. A couple more points of PG and I could resign my opposing views...

    Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

    Thunderdome
    James Baboli
    Warp to Pharmacy
    #132 - 2015-05-12 03:13:10 UTC
    Specia1 K wrote:
    James Baboli wrote:
    Specia1 K wrote:

    Thanks for doing some of the necessary calcs on fits.

    You might want to look at a sebo or targeting rig. That extra tank (and sig radius) you have is going to be eating away while you watch your targeting circle spinning on your opponent.

    I am so used to battleships that it doesn't bug me. Mostly fly either solo bastionades, shield vigilants or incursion battleships, so waiting for things to lock isn't something I think about alot.


    Heh. I'm thinking that this ship is going to need to apply damage quickly to succeed. Nobody is going to stay around to brawl it out with those webs.

    edit. Was hoping for more viable LM fits, just to mix up the meta. If everyone can guess your setup and you are slow, you are not going to do well. Agree that this should be a decent PVE ship though. A couple more points of PG and I could resign my opposing views...

    Oh, it can be made a 10mn AB LML fit, but you sacrifice the MSE for it, and I was happy with a 10mn fit to prove it is possible.

    Talking more,

    Flying crazier,

    And drinking more

    Making battleships worth the warp
    Iroquoiss Pliskin
    9B30FF Labs
    #133 - 2015-05-12 05:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hello everyone! We're now ready to share our current designs for the Jackdaw-class Caldari Tactical Destroyer.


    Hi. Smile

    Quote:
    Jackdaw
    Caldari Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
    5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile Launcher rate of fire
    5% bonus to Shield Hitpoints
    5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules


    No. You didn't.

    No, tell me you didn't.

    Confessor gets a crap turret Activation cost hull bonus, that it needs to merely function.
    Svipul gets Optimal range hull bonus that nanufagets all day long in Propulsion.

    Now Jackdaw with this.
    Can't wait for the Gallente one with Sentry drones no doubt.

    Quote:
    Defense Mode:
    33.3% bonus to all shield resistances while Defense Mode is active
    33.3% reduction in ship signature radius while Defense Mode is active


    Same as the Confessor. So much for flavour. Roll

    Increased shield regeneration rate is an option, if you look into the innate hull bonus issue, or balance it through high base hull shield recharge time.
    Decreased Shield Booster activation cost is also an option.

    Quote:
    The Propulsion mode bonuses on the Jackdaw provide a huge agility bonus and a smaller speed bonus, the opposite of the earlier T3Ds. When out of propulsion mode the Jackdaw turns like a slow cruiser, but when it enters propulsion mode it gets the agility of an extremely agile frigate.

    Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / warp speed / align time): 160 / 6.4 / 1,050,000 / 4.5 / 9.32s


    1MN MWD: 200 m/s base speed * (1 + (6.25 MWD bonus * (1,500,000 kg / (1,050,000 ship mass kg + 500,000 MWD mass kg))) = 1409 m/s / 2114 m/s OH and in Propulsion mode 1873 / 2810 m/s OH.

    10MN AB: 200 * (1 + (1.575 * (15,000,000 / (1,050,000 + 5,000,000))) = 980 / 1471 OH and 1303 / 1955 m/s OH. Smile

    Pre-tiericide propulsion modules, of course. Smile

    Quote:
    Signature radius: 70


    GOOD. ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

    // [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

    [Cruisers Online]
    Traejun DiSanctis
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #134 - 2015-05-12 05:42:22 UTC
    Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Hello everyone! We're now ready to share our current designs for the Jackdaw-class Caldari Tactical Destroyer.


    Hi. Smile

    Quote:
    Jackdaw
    Caldari Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
    5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile Launcher rate of fire
    5% bonus to Shield Hitpoints
    5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules



    Can't wait for the Gallente one with Sentry drones no doubt.



    Oh god, please not another Gallente sentry powerhouse. Isn't the Ishtar enough for you afk'ers?
    erg cz
    Federal Jegerouns
    #135 - 2015-05-12 07:01:57 UTC
    James Baboli wrote:
    The PG is a skosh lower than I would like to see. A buff of 2 PG lets you rock a full t2 setup like thus

    ...
    Small shield extender II



    Without any implants, that should fit with all skills 5, with .5 PG and .5 CPU if you give it said buff


    Drop that Small shield extender and you are ok with current PG.

    Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
    Ix Method
    Doomheim
    #136 - 2015-05-12 09:54:12 UTC
    It would be beautiful if you'd release the EFT files or whatever you use for us to play with when you rebalance/release ships. Colour me lazy but it'd probably improve the standard of feedback you receive.

    Travelling at the speed of love.
    Theronth Valarax
    V0LTA
    WE FORM V0LTA
    #137 - 2015-05-12 11:12:19 UTC
    Ix Method wrote:
    It would be beautiful if you'd release the EFT files or whatever you use for us to play with when you rebalance/release ships. Colour me lazy but it'd probably improve the standard of feedback you receive.

    EFT and PYFA are developed by player 3rd party and CCP has nothing to do with them.
    Having said that the stats are in the first post, if you don't want to wait for creators of said applications to update their software I suggest grabbing a calculator, a pen and doing calculations by yourself. All speed/tank/dps formulas are avaible in web.

    Check out my Youtube channel
    James Baboli
    Warp to Pharmacy
    #138 - 2015-05-12 13:07:09 UTC
    Theronth Valarax wrote:
    Ix Method wrote:
    It would be beautiful if you'd release the EFT files or whatever you use for us to play with when you rebalance/release ships. Colour me lazy but it'd probably improve the standard of feedback you receive.

    EFT and PYFA are developed by player 3rd party and CCP has nothing to do with them.
    Having said that the stats are in the first post, if you don't want to wait for creators of said applications to update their software I suggest grabbing a calculator, a pen and doing calculations by yourself. All speed/tank/dps formulas are avaible in web.

    Though I still have yet to find peak recharge for capacitor expressed well.

    Talking more,

    Flying crazier,

    And drinking more

    Making battleships worth the warp
    Hakaari Inkuran
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #139 - 2015-05-12 13:45:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
    Theronth Valarax wrote:
    Ix Method wrote:
    It would be beautiful if you'd release the EFT files or whatever you use for us to play with when you rebalance/release ships. Colour me lazy but it'd probably improve the standard of feedback you receive.

    EFT and PYFA are developed by player 3rd party and CCP has nothing to do with them.
    Having said that the stats are in the first post, if you don't want to wait for creators of said applications to update their software I suggest grabbing a calculator, a pen and doing calculations by yourself. All speed/tank/dps formulas are avaible in web.

    I feel like they should just list the stats with 'all V' when they post, just so peoplebwho forget skills exist, will stop cluttering the thread with trash.

    To clarify this is really an issue of some people comparing apples, unskilled stats, to oranges, skilled stats. Some people are fine when they compare apples to apples. By listing all v stats, ccp will cause everyone to talk in oranges instead of mixing them. I think that made sense. Maybe im just crazy
    Terra Chrall
    Doomheim
    #140 - 2015-05-12 13:45:40 UTC
    James Baboli wrote:
    Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
    So if you go with a MicroAux and BCU in the lows, are there any crazy things you can pull out of this ship?

    Lets find out..... Will be working on this for a bit, expect a couple asinine but amusing fits.

    Concepts I will be trying for:
    LSE - Not without implants, which I'm not willing to muck with when hand hacking the spreadsheet for this. Not even dual MAPC, with 2x t2 ACR
    10mn AB - Rockets, yes! especially post propmod tieracide. Can even do 10mn + MSEII with an ACRI and a navy aux core. Comes out with ~3PG and 30CPU with all 5s and no implants with the soon to exist compact and a navy power core. Till then, a cheap 3% for PG should make it work. Would need to drop the MSE to get it with LMLs.
    LASB- Also a practical no. Might be just barely possible with implants.
    MWD + 2x MASB - yes, without fitting mods, and with a BCS for rockets.
    MWD + 2x MSE - Op success. nearly perfectly eats the PG difference between 10mn compact AB and t2 1mn MWD

    Yeah but with only 2 lows and you not using any BCUs or DPS rigs your at about 223 DPS with T2 Ammo, faction ammo drops you down to around 185 DPS. A little low for today's T3Ds.

    Swap a low for a BCU and you are up to 274 T2 and 227 faction which is much better, but you are giving up a lot of tank dropping the DCU or fitting for the MAPC. Your third fit could drop the speed mod, but you are already using a 1MN prop and the base speed is ridiculously low.

    I like the good design which causes choices but the base speed and dps of this T3D is so far the weakest of the 3.