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Data Site Loottable desperatly needs fixing

Author
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2015-05-09 22:19:50 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Oh good grief. All this handwaving about supply and demand and we're still missing the problem with data sites.

Look, demand is plenty high. Anyone who does invention on any scale devours datacores. The issue is that most datacores come from FW. FW dumps set the price and the trickle from data sites just go along with that.

If you want to boost data sites you either need to reduce the datacore flow from FW or introduce a valuable drop that is primarily price-set by the data site supply.

Was gonna pretty much say the same thing myself.

Years ago CCP (Soundwave & Co.) tried to kill off various aspects of PvE content when they tried to remove in-game passive ISK generation under the guise of trying to boost Industry and Factional Warfare. This PvE content was available to everyone but was mainly being used by Mission Runners and Explorers. Supposedly Mission Runners and Explorers were destroying Mining, Invention and Manufacturing by doing Gun Mining (Loot Reprocessing) and manipulating the Market with Data Cores gained from R&D Agents / Exploration sites.

As for Data Cores and Data Sites : First CCP lowered the rate that R&D points accrued and also increased the cost of Data Cores from Research Agents. Then they decreased the spawn rate of Data Cores in Data (Radar) sites. Then in an attempt to boost Factional Warfare they made Data Cores available in Factional Warfare LP Stores at a ridiculously low price which in turn negatively affected the Market.

Data Cores should only be obtainable from R&D Agents and Exploration Data sites, not from Factional Warfare LP Stores.

As for Gun Mining : CCP replaced Meta 0 modules with Metal Scraps and reduced loot drop tables all across the board multiple times. There were other changes made as well but that's another topic altogether.


DMC
Telmat Khan
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-05-09 23:45:33 UTC
My issue is the "High-Tech Arms" etc. loot - it's apparently been said that they're not useless but I'm willing to wager that by the time they become (if ever) useful, every explorer and their mother will have a huge stockpile.
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#23 - 2015-05-12 10:30:06 UTC
Glad to see others are still upset about the current state of Data Sites. Here is a feedback thread from Februrary (3 months ago!) and nothing has changed since then:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2w6ge1/phoebe_exploration_data_site_feedback_faction/

"Faction Materials have been added to the all the exploration Data site loot tables." - This HAS to be a bug, as I have never seen any of these items drop from standard Data sites. Angel Simple Trigger Mechanism, Guristas Gravity Focuser, etc need a confirmation from CCP that they are in the loot tables and the drop percentage is accurate. The previous bug with Faction BPCs having a ZERO percent droprate happened in Rubicon and wasn't fixed until Phoebe. I don't want to see it take that long again for this to be checked, and we've already been waiting on this since NOVEMBER without confirmation.

I agree that a lot of the problem with the value of Data sites is oversupply, and low demand. But I don't think you can argue that this is all a result of the Odyssey expansion significantly lowering the skill bar for doing exploration. A lot of the items added or replaced in the Data sites have very few practical uses, which makes them worthless. In addition, a lot of the Cruis industry changes are contributing to the problem.


  • The new Industrial Goods added in Phoebe (High-Tech Data Chip, High-Tech Scanner, High-Tech Small Arms, High-Tech Manufacturing Tools) have ZERO manufacturing uses. Unknown if it was intended to just add them as flavor items and add manufacturing uses later. We've been waiting long enough that I expect CCP forgot or just doesn't care.

  • The Faction Materials like Electric Conduit were fairly low in value already, but they had manufacturing uses for making Interfaces for doing Invention. When they removed the Interfaces in the Industrial expansion (Crius), they left these items in, but didn't add new uses for them. Basically they only thing they are good for at the moment is building certain COSMOS items, which the BPCs can be found now in some of the Sleeper Cache sites. These materials are just too common, and many of the COSMOS modules haven't been rebalanced yet and are inferior to the Meta/T2 versions, so they aren't worth building.

  • The Invention rebalance in Cruis shifted around usage of Datacores to make them more even. They also homogenized the Decryptors so they were no longer racial. This shifted the values around for datacores but not to a significant degree. The problem with the Decryptors the price went down as supply increased, as any region can now provide them. The main problem with supply here is the multiple ways of getting Datacores - especially from Faction Warfare.

  • How the Ancient Relic market crashed after Cruis changed the process to Reverse Engineer for T3 ships and subsystems to the Invention process is a complex issue. Some of the W-Space guys will need to chime in on this. There is less demand for Ancient Relics for inventing subsystems because while there is still a failure chance, you can choose which subsystem you are trying to invent. Not saying this is a bad thing, but the effect was the nosedive of all Ancient Relics by 60-70%.



How I would fix some of this:



  • Fix the drop rate for Faction Materials (Angel Simple Trigger Mechanism) in Data Sites!

  • Add demand for the added Industrial Goods (High-Tech Data Chip) and the neglected Faction Materials (Electric Conduit) by making them components for new manufacturable items. This could be the upcoming player built Sov Structures and Upgrades- Administration Hubs, Advertisement Centers, Observatory Arrays, Market Hubs, Drilling Platforms, etc. There are tons of new opportunities to use these items in industry to give them value. Don't forget about them!

  • Reduce Datacore supply by removing them from Faction Warfare LP stores. Faction Warfare had Datacores added to the LP stores in 2012, and there are tons of items they uniquely provide (Faction Ship and Module BPCs, Faction Ammo). With the Odyssey expansion, so many more pilots can do Exploration and collect Datacores, and the profession alone can supply the market. There was discussion at Fanfest about player owned stations generating Datacores - CCP really needs a consistent vision for this.

  • Continue rebalancing COSMOS and Storyline items with the Module Tiercide, making sure they have valuable uses compared to Meta/T2/Deadspace/Faction. This will drive up demand for the modules which the BPCs can be picked up by doing Sleeper Cache sites and COSMOS missions; and the components through Data sites.

  • Take a hard look at the data, and evaluate how the Crius industry rebalance has affected the T2 industry via the invention process. Decryptor drop rates may need adjustment, but there is no easy fix here. Considering how Industry Teams were added and then just removed, I don't have a lot of hope here - there is no easy fix.

  • Take a hard look at W-Space Data/Relic site drops and value. A lot of this is market demand, but the invention changes really messed with demand for Ancient Relics for building subsystems. Talocan Wrecks (Small, Intact) still have, value but have dropped a lot. Drop rates may need to be adjusted in line with the upcoming T3 Strategic Cruiser rebalance, which will make some subsystems more popular. Success chances for invention may need rebalancing.

  • Find new uses for the Sleeper Science skills - possibly in relation to the Drifter Tech and new Shattered Wormholes. These skills (Sleeper Technology, Takmahl Technology, Talocan Technology, Yan Jung Technology) are not used for invention, but only storyline module manufacturing.

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#24 - 2015-05-13 01:18:50 UTC
I'm glad you're thinking constructively about solutions for data sites, but I'm rather concerned that some of your suggestions are short-sighted.

Ransu Asanari wrote:
Add demand for the added Industrial Goods (High-Tech Data Chip) and the neglected Faction Materials (Electric Conduit) by making them components for new manufacturable items. This could be the upcoming player built Sov Structures and Upgrades- Administration Hubs, Advertisement Centers, Observatory Arrays, Market Hubs, Drilling Platforms, etc. There are tons of new opportunities to use these items in industry to give them value. Don't forget about them!


Couldn't agree more. Make these things useful on some sort of non-trivial scale and you'd automatically increase data site value.

Ransu Asanari wrote:
Reduce Datacore supply by removing them from Faction Warfare LP stores. Faction Warfare had Datacores added to the LP stores in 2012, and there are tons of items they uniquely provide (Faction Ship and Module BPCs, Faction Ammo). With the Odyssey expansion, so many more pilots can do Exploration and collect Datacores, and the profession alone can supply the market. There was discussion at Fanfest about player owned stations generating Datacores - CCP really needs a consistent vision for this.


I'm very concerned about this suggestion. I'm not sure anyone in this thread runs an industrial operation large enough to appreciate just how very, very many datacores are consumed by invention. Any reduction in supply here, let alone cutting off THE primary source, would have very serious effects on the market. T2 modules and ships, already questionably better than meta 4 in many cases, would skyrocket in price. The inflationary ramifications on the entire economy are actually hard to overstate.

To put this in perspective, when I'm active I run one account full of industry. Two of the three characters can invent T2 items; all three can build them and their components. That single account run optimally can consume multiple billions of ISK in datacores per month -- and that's at current prices. And let's be clear here: this is a small operation. Very small. Drop in the bucket. If the supply of datacores was reduced by 50%, price would have to at least double which in turn could on average double the price of every single T2 item in the game. That's a huge shock to the economy.

Now, you could of course increase the drop rates of datacores while dropping them from FW in the hopes that whole thing would wash out to even prices but more profits for exploration. I'm not as opposed to that idea. It's not without risk, of course, but it might at least work without hitting the entire T2 economy in the nards.

Ransu Asanari wrote:
Continue rebalancing COSMOS and Storyline items with the Module Tiercide, making sure they have valuable uses compared to Meta/T2/Deadspace/Faction. This will drive up demand for the modules which the BPCs can be picked up by doing Sleeper Cache sites and COSMOS missions; and the components through Data sites.


I don't see this as much of a solution. There would have to be far more blueprints in circulation to make this worthwhile. As is, the crappy modules aren't helping anything but even the good modules don't lead to high component prices.

Ransu Asanari wrote:
Take a hard look at the data, and evaluate how the Crius industry rebalance has affected the T2 industry via the invention process. Decryptor drop rates may need adjustment, but there is no easy fix here. Considering how Industry Teams were added and then just removed, I don't have a lot of hope here - there is no easy fix.


Decryptors aren't worth as much in invention; that much is true. I'd like to see that change but it is indeed a deep hole to go down.

Ransu Asanari wrote:
Take a hard look at W-Space Data/Relic site drops and value. A lot of this is market demand, but the invention changes really messed with demand for Ancient Relics for building subsystems. Talocan Wrecks (Small, Intact) still have, value but have dropped a lot. Drop rates may need to be adjusted in line with the upcoming T3 Strategic Cruiser rebalance, which will make some subsystems more popular. Success chances for invention may need rebalancing.

Find new uses for the Sleeper Science skills - possibly in relation to the Drifter Tech and new Shattered Wormholes. These skills (Sleeper Technology, Takmahl Technology, Talocan Technology, Yan Jung Technology) are not used for invention, but only storyline module manufacturing.


I'm not sure how these act as a solution to the problem at hand but I can't really disagree with either.
DB Jones
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-05-13 03:17:53 UTC
perhaps add datecores to the bill of materials for manufacturing, so they're used in both invention and manufacturing.?


Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#26 - 2015-05-14 21:30:43 UTC
Zhilia Mann thanks for your feedback.

To address your main concern - I understand that there is a huge amount of datacores used in T2 invention - I do a bit of it myself, and I'm constantly buying huge supplies of Datacores and moving them to a station to run invention jobs. Even though I benefit from this, I do think that Datacores are too abundant and cheap currently.

The recent invention rebalance smoothed out the usages of specific ones, such as Mechanical Engineering, which used to be the easy LP to ISK dump from FW.

CCP could look at the number of datacores coming from various sources - Faction Warfare, Research Agents, and Data Sites. That would ensure that tweaking the faucet for these, the remaining sources would still be able to supply the demand. Increasing the drop rate of Datacores in Data sites, and increasing the LP cost for them from Faction Warfare would make it easier to balance, while not letting the supply constrict enough to drive the price up sharply.

I do think that "Gun Mining" is something that is to be discouraged - we've seen changes like removing the Drone Alloys, and the module reprocessing nerfs happen to reduce the profitability of this. Along the same lines, having the majority of Datacores sourced from missions and plexing via the Faction Warfare LP store is a bit counterintuitive. I'd like to see more of the research and manufacturing chains tied to industry and exploration activities.

That said, CCP already seems to have some plans around alternate sources for Datacores - check out this Fanfest presentation on Research Structures:

https://youtu.be/Hen92QFrDUo?t=1064

I don't like the idea of the structure itself generating Datacores passively. The Research Agents are already so irrelevant I don't know why they would replace them with another passive source. Hopefully they just have a solid plan with how they want to tie in the new structures for industry and invention.
Lendren
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2015-05-18 22:32:23 UTC
Buoytender Bob wrote:
Exception,of course, are the sleeper sites which appear rarer and rarer as the weeks go on.


I find at least 1 sleeper sight every time i go out, sometimes more.
Shon Anzomi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2015-05-19 10:52:02 UTC
I don't really agree with that

a) you can't cherrypick your hacking at data the same way as with relics

b) that there isn't anything valuable at datasites.


a) Databanks are usually worth much more than com towers. But if databanks are crap or have nothing in them, then one of the com towers will have some interesting stuff in it.


b) I found some faction POS stuff at datasites, in some occasion even in high sec data site. That could easily earn you > 50MM ISK for that site if you use that BPC.


What I agree is that it takes much more time to find something useful at data site. But when it happens, its usually something nice and shiny which sells well. Relics are much more consistent but they dont surprise much in positive way with exception to those cans that have like 90MM stuff in them :D
Sam Spock
The Arnold Connection
#29 - 2015-05-28 17:58:07 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Glad to see others are still upset about the current state of Data Sites. Here is a feedback thread from Februrary (3 months ago!) and nothing has changed since then:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2w6ge1/phoebe_exploration_data_site_feedback_faction/

"Faction Materials have been added to the all the exploration Data site loot tables." - This HAS to be a bug, as I have never seen any of these items drop from standard Data sites. Angel Simple Trigger Mechanism, Guristas Gravity Focuser, etc need a confirmation from CCP that they are in the loot tables and the drop percentage is accurate. The previous bug with Faction BPCs having a ZERO percent droprate happened in Rubicon and wasn't fixed until Phoebe. I don't want to see it take that long again for this to be checked, and we've already been waiting on this since NOVEMBER without confirmation.



I have gotten a few of these in high sec sites. VERY low drop rate though. Most of the storyline bpc's that need them that I have gotten always seem to want ones that are super rare and makes them not worth building. They need to fix this.

One thing they could do is remove decryptors from the sties and replace them with decryptor bpc's with various run amounts (1, 3, 10, 25 etc) and use the trade goods and faction parts to build them.

As it is you never get more than one of any type of decryptor from a can. You can get one each of four different ones but never more than one each.

Chances are the trade goods will stay worthless since it could be a big market shock to suddenly give them a use and therefore a value.

I would love to see very low drop chances for faction module bpc's from these sites as well. About the same rate as tower bpc's would do.

Giving you Inconsistent grammar, speilling and Punct-uation since 1974!

Starbuck05
Abiding Ormolus
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#30 - 2015-05-30 20:45:57 UTC
Shon Anzomi wrote:
I don't really agree with that

a) you can't cherrypick your hacking at data the same way as with relics

b) that there isn't anything valuable at datasites.


a) Databanks are usually worth much more than com towers. But if databanks are crap or have nothing in them, then one of the com towers will have some interesting stuff in it.


b) I found some faction POS stuff at datasites, in some occasion even in high sec data site. That could easily earn you > 50MM ISK for that site if you use that BPC.


What I agree is that it takes much more time to find something useful at data site. But when it happens, its usually something nice and shiny which sells well. Relics are much more consistent but they dont surprise much in positive way with exception to those cans that have like 90MM stuff in them :D




If you think relics are consistent then explain how i got a 2 bil worth faction tower bpc? They are consistent-ish and even so ..data sites still don't compare. I run them in whs and every relic site nets me avarage 20 mil at the very least while you admited yourself you SOMETIMES find datas with 50 mil value in them.

Just today for example i've done 5-6 relic sites and walked away with 150 mil and it did not took me an hour.

Personaly evertime i see a data site i just curse my monitor.


While i have no ideea myself how to improve the situation other then some good solutions written so far, i would very much like to see some improvement.

Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !

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