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Curious about avg. trader preformance
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Taiga Otonashi
Itanni Suo
#1 - 2011-12-24 11:16:56 UTC
Hey all

I recently started trading to try different sources of income and I was wondering what kind of performance is expected to be a decent trader. most of the time I see people talking about making 500mill a day ect. but that's kind of a bad way of evaluation performance, it all depends on the starting capital. making 50mill with a 100mill investment is a lot more impressive then with a 1b investment :P

there for I would like to hear what ROA/ROI your pulling each day or maybe each week?

Ofc a good ROA/ROI for a station trader and a hauling trader is very different.

so in short what I'm asking is what kind of ROA/ROI are you pulling on an average.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#2 - 2011-12-24 11:23:20 UTC
I'm primarily interested in ROI when taking into account the time spent researching and adjusting orders.

Someone who spends 4 hours a day working the market should better make a pretty good ROI after a week of doing so.
malaire
#3 - 2011-12-24 12:18:01 UTC  |  Edited by: malaire
I might answer best by showing my trading wealth graph.

I started serious trading on summer with about 2 bil capital (first mark in graph). In the beginning I was doing missions also so initial growth to 8 bil at 2011-09-28 wasn't just trading.

I managed to double that 8 bil in about one month, and by then I had more ISK than I was able to use effectively (far too much ISK in wallet because I didn't want to increase my active order count too much.)

During last 2 months my trading capital has been 14-21 bil, and I've got 5-9 bil profit during 30 days. Initially I was updating orders every 15 minutes for several hours per day, but when Skyrim was released that dropped to few updates per day, sometimes not even that. And recently I again started more aggressive updates (after I got bored of Skyrim).

(about graph: red = ISK taken away from my trading capital, green = value of my trading items at Jita Buy price, blue = how much more I will get if I manage to sell my trading items at the price I'm currently trying to sell them at.)

And my trading style: I basically have characters sitting at 2 locations, using red frog for all transporting needs.

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Jerera
#4 - 2011-12-24 12:39:29 UTC
malaire wrote:
…


Now I'm curious, did you generate the graph by hand, or with some 3rd party software (that would use the API)? I'd be very interested in recreating it if it is the latter.
malaire
#5 - 2011-12-24 12:57:24 UTC
Jerera wrote:
malaire wrote:
…


Now I'm curious, did you generate the graph by hand, or with some 3rd party software (that would use the API)? I'd be very interested in recreating it if it is the latter.


Graph is made by LibreOffice Calc, I paste new numbers there every 2 days. ISK and escrow I copy from EVE, other 4 values (sell orders at JitaBuy and MySell value, items in storage at JitaBuy and MySell value) I get from my private trading program which uses cache reading to get market prices from EVE and I manually keep it updated about what items I have in sell orders and in storage. (It could use API to pull my order info but I havn't implemented that yet.)

New to EVE? Don't forget to read: The Manual * The Wiki * The Career Options * and everything else
Rasz Lin
#6 - 2011-12-24 13:25:43 UTC
woohoo graph dikc waving

2010
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/466/clipboard01lo.png

2010
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3671/sepoctoberprofit.png

Those are graphs from excellent now dead EVETrader program. Blue bar = total sell, green line = pure profit. I think I had ~10B in first and maybe ~50B in the second picture, i dont remember.

Nowadays im spacerich and dont care that much about the profit, i care more about making money while making other people feel miserable. I used to love jumping on speculation bandwagon, now I keep stock of common items just so I can dump it at no profit (or even loss) and crash speculation attempts. I also rather sell 1 overpriced crap than 100 at normal price, with one overpriced I know someone feels the pain :).

ROA, ROI , donchians, candless up the a55, who cares, its just a game.
Jerera
#7 - 2011-12-24 13:35:20 UTC
malaire wrote:
Jerera wrote:
malaire wrote:
…


Now I'm curious, did you generate the graph by hand, or with some 3rd party software (that would use the API)? I'd be very interested in recreating it if it is the latter.


Graph is made by LibreOffice Calc, I paste new numbers there every 2 days. ISK and escrow I copy from EVE, other 4 values (sell orders at JitaBuy and MySell value, items in storage at JitaBuy and MySell value) I get from my private trading program which uses cache reading to get market prices from EVE and I manually keep it updated about what items I have in sell orders and in storage. (It could use API to pull my order info but I havn't implemented that yet.)


Hmmm. Interesting. I don't know if there's a precise way of knowing how many is held in escrow with the API (by analyzing the wallet journal, we can have the variation of the amount held, but we have no starting value). The rest seems doable with the market orders, the asset list and eve-central price estimations.
Chung Ju-yung
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-12-27 20:36:05 UTC
Rasz Lin wrote:

ROA, ROI , donchians, candless up the a55, who cares, its just a game.


I am far from spacerich myself, but this has been my approach to trading and thus far it has served me well. I can't show off graphs or dazzle with NAV figures from a spreadsheet, but I've managed to make quite a few times my initial investment while having fun.
Mongo Travler
Recreational Hazards
#9 - 2011-12-28 20:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mongo Travler
I would guess I net ~250 million a month trading. I primarily supply low sec stations with goods so my profit margin is high but turnover is pretty low. I started with 100million in trading capital and after 6 months I now have between 1.5 and 2 bil on the market at any given time. I've started building most of the T1 goods I sell (buying the minerals) and using buy orders for the T2/meta items - which increases the profit margin considerably.

The bad part about trading this way is I'm limited by what I can haul (blockade runner is pretty much a requirement). So I can't take advantage of trading bulkier items or manufacturing goods because of the cargo space needed. The good thing is that since I'm in low sec competition is pretty low so I only go by and update my orders 3-4 times a week.

This allows me to do other things while still having a steady income stream but is probably not the most efficient means of wealth generation.
Gei'neille
Paragon Group
#10 - 2011-12-29 04:13:05 UTC
In the last 12 months I've averaged about 14%

The ROI is there, it depends on the strategy that you take.
Dan Osiris
Never Not Contract
#11 - 2011-12-29 05:14:06 UTC
i make about 1bil a month with 3 bil capital updating orders 2-3 times a day. i do station trading.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#12 - 2011-12-29 10:22:04 UTC
If you have a number of unused orders, a few, "What the hell." bottom feeder orders in some distant-from-Jita region can bear fruit. It doesn't make business, but it is surprising how often someone will dump hundreds of thousands of units for .02isk that sells for 60k in Jita. It's an easy mullti-billion transaction for pennies invested.

Of course, once you have the isk, better to make buy orders for higher amounts to encourage the producers to make more. Rather, than have them dump all their effort in disgust because it obviously isn't worth much.

Look at your buyers in the log, and send them an email. "Hey, you know all that product you dumped for a couple pennies. I'll give you 500 isk per unit if you'll make more."

But back to the original question. I'm not really sure. I trade because it's fun not because I'm trying to squeeze every last isk from a run. So I look for interesting runs through lowsec, or between far flung regions where the spread is just too interesting. And, I'm a RL mariner, so I can't play routinely. The thing I love about Trading is I can make ISK even when I can't play for a month or more at a time.

So I'm more like, a few hundred million here, a few billion there. And lots of jumps in between.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Mantra Achura
Stammtisch
#13 - 2011-12-29 16:01:04 UTC
Taking ROA/ROI as indicator isn't the best idea imo.

Best stats you will get at the very beginning as one is able to double its investments within a very short timeframe. Low investments on items with low volume(price*no. of items traded daily) and thus low cometition grants high margin. The more money one has the more money is spent in items traded in higher volumes granting low margins.

TL;DR

The richer one gets the lower ROA/ROI will become.
In the end total income matters.
Coresti Uthlan
ARK Coresti Star Corp
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#14 - 2011-12-29 20:31:54 UTC
Hi !
I started in August, with 50 Million ISK ,and 50 million in ware, now with maunfacturing/mining /trading combo, I earned 8 times my original investments
Ghoest
#15 - 2011-12-30 01:57:10 UTC
Return once you have 10 billion or so capital is roughly proportional to time invested(with a competency multiplier.)

You need to worry about how much isk you make for how time spent working on it - dont worry about rates of return etc.

Wherever You Went - Here You Are