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Opportunities SP reward
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#21 - 2015-05-07 18:10:29 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
The Skillpoint System and You


I do not support this idea.


Agreed

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#22 - 2015-05-07 18:18:16 UTC
CCP has said many times they SPECIFICALLY DO NOT WANT to set up the "do stuff get something" act-reward loop, and the entire opportunities system is specifically designed to avoid doing that.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-05-07 18:56:22 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:


My point is in any other game you have to actively gain XP to progress, Eve on the face of it, has you waiting a specific amount of time with no effort needed to skill up. this doesn't engage people.


Look at it this way, Eve has you earning 80% roughly of your xp per day even when not logged in (assuming you play 5 hours per day). No need to grind, just learn how to use your new sills properly whilst more new skills are training. A genuinely new player wouldn't have the player knowledge or ISK to make use of e.g. an Assault Frigate even if they were given the SP for free (and they wouldn't really understand which skills to train to what level first to get maximum benefit anyway).

The time taken to train player skills serves 2 purposes, firstly the sense of progress and achievement and secondly it makes you learn how to make use of the new skills you've just gained whilst waiting.
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#24 - 2015-05-07 19:26:57 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Horak Thor wrote:


My point is in any other game you have to actively gain XP to progress, Eve on the face of it, has you waiting a specific amount of time with no effort needed to skill up. this doesn't engage people.


Look at it this way, Eve has you earning 80% roughly of your xp per day even when not logged in (assuming you play 5 hours per day). No need to grind, just learn how to use your new sills properly whilst more new skills are training. A genuinely new player wouldn't have the player knowledge or ISK to make use of e.g. an Assault Frigate even if they were given the SP for free (and they wouldn't really understand which skills to train to what level first to get maximum benefit anyway).

The time taken to train player skills serves 2 purposes, firstly the sense of progress and achievement and secondly it makes you learn how to make use of the new skills you've just gained whilst waiting.


The primary point is about retention, not free skillpoints. Maybe i didn't make that point clear enough.

The free skill points just means people will actually follow the opportunities system.

Join a corp, get 10k SP, actually chat to some people = retention.
Kill a player, get 10k SP, wow i like PVP = retention.

No other game out there is like eve or uses a system like eve. Thats why it struggles with retention.
If you can apply an early tick list incentive that people will actually follow, you can retain more people, well hopefully.

.....
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-05-07 19:48:07 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:

No other game out there is like eve or uses a system like eve. Thats why it struggles with retention.
If you can apply an early tick list incentive that people will actually follow, you can retain more people, well hopefully.


I think that the retention issue is simply down to people liking or not liking the game, not the SP system itself. A player can effectively do any of the basic careers in rapid order with minimal training. The million SP split across all the careers would add very little to what a player can actually do in each career as it would still be a small increase across the board. Better to give the accelerant in this case, still effectively 'free' SP but the player has to make choices about where they go and can chose to spread bet them over many careers or focus on one or two to get into them more rapidly.

I really don't think that retention is down to the skill points mechanic. Or PvP, ganking,mining, missioning, etc etc. It is purely down to the basic gameplay and you either like spaceships/scifi settings that take some thought and planning or you don't
Madd Adda
#26 - 2015-05-07 21:06:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Madd Adda
Horak Thor wrote:


The primary point is about retention, not free skillpoints. Maybe i didn't make that point clear enough.

The free skill points just means people will actually follow the opportunities system.

Join a corp, get 10k SP, actually chat to some people = retention.
Kill a player, get 10k SP, wow i like PVP = retention.

No other game out there is like eve or uses a system like eve. Thats why it struggles with retention.
If you can apply an early tick list incentive that people will actually follow, you can retain more people, well hopefully.



"The free skill points just means people will actually follow the opportunities system."
yeah that's what we need, a skinner box style game mechanic that forces players to do it just for the reward, just like what other MMOs use to get their players to stay.


"No other game out there is like eve or uses a system like eve. Thats why it struggles with retention."
that's not right, it's the amount of time needed to get over the infamous learning curve that Eve has. I have decent SP sunk in PVP but i still suck hard at it, i know that no amount of SP will change that until i practice in a ship.


also even if they were to give out SP it should only be 100-1000 units at a time rather than 10k

Carebear extraordinaire
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#27 - 2015-05-07 21:12:28 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Horak Thor wrote:

No other game out there is like eve or uses a system like eve. Thats why it struggles with retention.
If you can apply an early tick list incentive that people will actually follow, you can retain more people, well hopefully.


I think that the retention issue is simply down to people liking or not liking the game, not the SP system itself. A player can effectively do any of the basic careers in rapid order with minimal training. The million SP split across all the careers would add very little to what a player can actually do in each career as it would still be a small increase across the board. Better to give the accelerant in this case, still effectively 'free' SP but the player has to make choices about where they go and can chose to spread bet them over many careers or focus on one or two to get into them more rapidly.

I really don't think that retention is down to the skill points mechanic. Or PvP, ganking,mining, missioning, etc etc. It is purely down to the basic gameplay and you either like spaceships/scifi settings that take some thought and planning or you don't


Everyone has a different experience when they play eve i guess. my personal experience when i first started, i quit rejoined, quit rejoined etc etc over 2 years until i finally joined a decent PVP corp which i found my complete luck.
A system such as a "a skinner box style game mechanic that forces players to do it just for the reward" would have retained me personally, until i found my place.

.....
Madd Adda
#28 - 2015-05-07 21:24:59 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:


Everyone has a different experience when they play eve i guess. my personal experience when i first started, i quit rejoined, quit rejoined etc etc over 2 years until i finally joined a decent PVP corp which i found my complete luck.
A system such as a "a skinner box style game mechanic that forces players to do it just for the reward" would have retained me personally, until i found my place.



you're retained now, you kept coming back despite quitting, i don't see the issue here.

Playing the game should be its own reward, the SP is just to have something to work towards, plus it it's a timesink.

Carebear extraordinaire
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-05-07 21:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
So current SP system got nothing to do with your past.bad luck in finding a good group of people you joined only 2 years after your day one. Actually you could start shooting other pilots in you rookie ship. But it's doubtfull that 1m given you after a week of grinding Opportunities makes you doing better. 1m SP is just an opportunity to be able to use mods and ships but got nothing to do with real knowledge of game mechanics.

Eve is a long term goal.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#30 - 2015-05-07 21:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
Horak Thor wrote:

My point is in any other game you have to actively gain XP to progress, Eve on the face of it, has you waiting a specific amount of time with no effort needed to skill up. this doesn't engage people.

Yeah, I know... what a great game.

We don't have to play with people whom we don't wish to engage with.

(Frees up your time to actually explore and experience the unique wonders which are the EVE Universe.)

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#31 - 2015-05-07 23:33:28 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Horak Thor wrote:


My point is in any other game you have to actively gain XP to progress, Eve on the face of it, has you waiting a specific amount of time with no effort needed to skill up. this doesn't engage people.


Look at it this way, Eve has you earning 80% roughly of your xp per day even when not logged in (assuming you play 5 hours per day). No need to grind, just learn how to use your new sills properly whilst more new skills are training. A genuinely new player wouldn't have the player knowledge or ISK to make use of e.g. an Assault Frigate even if they were given the SP for free (and they wouldn't really understand which skills to train to what level first to get maximum benefit anyway).

The time taken to train player skills serves 2 purposes, firstly the sense of progress and achievement and secondly it makes you learn how to make use of the new skills you've just gained whilst waiting.


The primary point is about retention, not free skillpoints. Maybe i didn't make that point clear enough.

The free skill points just means people will actually follow the opportunities system.

Join a corp, get 10k SP, actually chat to some people = retention.
Kill a player, get 10k SP, wow i like PVP = retention.

No other game out there is like eve or uses a system like eve. Thats why it struggles with retention.
If you can apply an early tick list incentive that people will actually follow, you can retain more people, well hopefully.



Eve retains certain people. Its a niche game. its not for everyone. this comes with being niche and ccp accepts that.



Dangling ephemeral carrots not changing this. Your idea would appeal to completionists. People who when they reach their goal may leave regardless. Blizzard has this issue. WOW gets it wow is dying threads starting 6-9 months past expansion release without fail. As all the resubbers for the expansion are "done" wow and unsub. Until next expansion usually.

EVE retained me and people like me over 6 years ago. this was with clone upgrade costs. learning skills. Some careers now very noob friendly had higher requirements in these days as well (exploration skill like probing and such had a few decent time investment level 5's to learn long ago).


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