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PvE fatigue: Phoebe for PvE

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Author
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#101 - 2015-05-03 13:17:06 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm all for a rest mechanic similar to WoW, perhaps affecting damage. A tired capsuleer should take some penalties. Nobody needs to play 16-23.5 hours per day, every day. A rest mechanic penalizing people who play more than 112 hours in a week (sliding window) will only harm botters and people who really should get more sleep.


Now, explain why this is good for anyone. That it only harms people who are playing for a marathon session is insufficient reason to implement a feature if there is no clear cut upside anywhere.

It only harms no-lifers, but some of the best times I've had in eve have come from marathon fleets, in one case 53 hours of near continuous play. This was a special case (long weekend, girlfriends out of town, a couple other eve players co-located in meatspace) but it was still one of the best times I have had in eve.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#102 - 2015-05-03 14:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm all for a rest mechanic similar to WoW, perhaps affecting damage. A tired capsuleer should take some penalties. Nobody needs to play 16-23.5 hours per day, every day. A rest mechanic penalizing people who play more than 112 hours in a week (sliding window) will only harm botters and people who really should get more sleep.


A tired capsuleer does take penalties. The penalties include....

-Lower risk management (I can take on 4 guys at once)
-Higher chances of making a mistake (Did I just click jump to or bridge to?)
-Lower reaction time (Hey guys that tornado has me....nevermind he alphad me)
-Not notice something important (How did I end up in low/nulsec? I should have gotten that low/nulsec warning box to pop up)

There are many more. So if anything, by encouraging people to turn off the game and get some sleep or go outside, you are encouraging people to not do as many things that will get them killed.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#103 - 2015-05-03 14:28:50 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm all for a rest mechanic similar to WoW, perhaps affecting damage. A tired capsuleer should take some penalties. Nobody needs to play 16-23.5 hours per day, every day. A rest mechanic penalizing people who play more than 112 hours in a week (sliding window) will only harm botters and people who really should get more sleep.


A tired capsuleer does take penalties. The penalties include....

-Lower risk management (I can take on 4 guys at once)
-Higher chances of making a mistake (Did I just click jump to or bridge to?)
-Lower reaction time (Hey guys that tornado has me....nevermind he alphad me)
-Not notice something important (How did I end up in low/nulsec? I should have gotten that low/nulsec warning box to pop up)

There are many more. So if anything, by encouraging people to turn off the game and get some sleep or go outside, you are encouraging people to not do as many things that will get them killed.


My funniest loss was from a 2am 'last trip' to losec...early in my time here I had minimal decent modules so used to unfit/refit different haulers for hisec and losec. One night I hopped into my nereus, leapt through to Old Man Star only to find myself pinned and being gunned down...I was so bemused as to why I couldn't see the usual multi-wcs mods on the HUD that I entirely forgot to align and got podded too! I had of course forgotten to refit the nereus in my bleary eyed bad decision making state and hadn't even noticed the complete lack of anything until it was too late...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2015-05-03 16:42:06 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm all for a rest mechanic similar to WoW, perhaps affecting damage. A tired capsuleer should take some penalties. Nobody needs to play 16-23.5 hours per day, every day. A rest mechanic penalizing people who play more than 112 hours in a week (sliding window) will only harm botters and people who really should get more sleep.


Now, explain why this is good for anyone.

It only harms no-lifers, but some of the best times I've had in eve have come from marathon fleets, in one case 53 hours of near continuous play.

Well then it wouldn't affect you.

It would hurt the 23.5/7 bots but it wouldn't hurt actual players who actually play. If any actual players receive a penalty for it, it's probably helping them.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Zimmer Jones
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2015-05-03 16:54:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
I remember some games used to have warnings for players after they played for certain extended times. Sometimes with health warnings.

Edit: that said, I do enjoy marathon gaming as well, 64ish hrs barring downtimes and bathroom breaks, good times

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2015-05-03 17:22:42 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm all for a rest mechanic similar to WoW, perhaps affecting damage. A tired capsuleer should take some penalties. Nobody needs to play 16-23.5 hours per day, every day. A rest mechanic penalizing people who play more than 112 hours in a week (sliding window) will only harm botters and people who really should get more sleep.


Now, explain why this is good for anyone.

It only harms no-lifers, but some of the best times I've had in eve have come from marathon fleets, in one case 53 hours of near continuous play.

Well then it wouldn't affect you.

It would hurt the 23.5/7 bots but it wouldn't hurt actual players who actually play. If any actual players receive a penalty for it, it's probably helping them.


Can we stop with the selectively applied ridiculous nerf ideas. 'It's ok as long as it doesn't affect me' is pathetic.

No-one, but NO-ONE is fit to judge how people spend their time.

Not to mention the extra stress this puts on the hamsters. Also, what happens in tidi?

The whole damn idea has more flaws than an underwater hairdryer and is fixing a problem which does not exist.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2015-05-03 22:02:05 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm all for a rest mechanic similar to WoW, perhaps affecting damage. A tired capsuleer should take some penalties. Nobody needs to play 16-23.5 hours per day, every day. A rest mechanic penalizing people who play more than 112 hours in a week (sliding window) will only harm botters and people who really should get more sleep.


Now, explain why this is good for anyone. That it only harms people who are playing for a marathon session is insufficient reason to implement a feature if there is no clear cut upside anywhere.

It only harms no-lifers, but some of the best times I've had in eve have come from marathon fleets, in one case 53 hours of near continuous play. This was a special case (long weekend, girlfriends out of town, a couple other eve players co-located in meatspace) but it was still one of the best times I have had in eve.


Heh...I know those times. Wife and kid out of town for several days...several days of (nearly) uninterrupted Eve time.

Still, the one's I see this getting at the most would be botters...but I have to wonder how many. A player who logs in that many hours has likely already drawn the attention of team security.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#108 - 2015-05-03 22:08:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


Heh...I know those times. Wife and kid out of town for several days...several days of (nearly) uninterrupted Eve time.

Still, the one's I see this getting at the most would be botters...but I have to wonder how many. A player who logs in that many hours has likely already drawn the attention of team security.


Other, simpler and more effective ways of combating stupid bots, and smart bots are HARD. Having worked on some automated scripts for a game that ultimately died before release, and purely on making them smart enough to deal with unexpected situations, anyone who can get a bot past the Bayesian math that could be done if CCP crunches numbers hard is putting in way more effort for more risk than just being at their keyboard.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#109 - 2015-05-04 02:19:36 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Heh...I know those times. Wife and kid out of town for several days...several days of (nearly) uninterrupted Eve time.

Still, the one's I see this getting at the most would be botters...but I have to wonder how many. A player who logs in that many hours has likely already drawn the attention of team security.


Other, simpler and more effective ways of combating stupid bots, and smart bots are HARD. Having worked on some automated scripts for a game that ultimately died before release, and purely on making them smart enough to deal with unexpected situations, anyone who can get a bot past the Bayesian math that could be done if CCP crunches numbers hard is putting in way more effort for more risk than just being at their keyboard.


Completely agree.

And +1 for using the word Bayesian. Big smile

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#110 - 2015-05-04 16:46:49 UTC
You are still evading the problem: currently ISK making depends more on playing time than on player skill.
EVE supposed to be a hard game (rewarding those with skill) and not a boring grindy one (rewarding those with time, even if they literally lack braincells: bots)

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#111 - 2015-05-04 17:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Hopelesshobo
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
You are still evading the problem: currently ISK making depends more on playing time than on player skill.
EVE supposed to be a hard game (rewarding those with skill) and not a boring grindy one (rewarding those with time, even if they literally lack braincells: bots)


Good luck making isk on manufacturing stuff without the appropriate skills to back up what you are trying to produce. Also good luck making 100 mil isk per hour in incursions if the entire fleet is made up of 1 month old chars.

Also, another funny thing you said...

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

PS: trading is PvP, please don't be the moron who suggest fatigue on setting/modifying orders!


There are NPC market orders that make up price ceilings in the game. When a player interacts with an NPC it is PVE. If someone exchanges a currency for a hard asset or vice versa, then it is trading. Therefore trading can be PVE.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2015-05-04 17:31:05 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
You are still evading the problem: currently ISK making depends more on playing time than on player skill.
EVE supposed to be a hard game (rewarding those with skill) and not a boring grindy one (rewarding those with time, even if they literally lack braincells: bots)


When it comes to making ISK Eve has always been a boring grindfest.

Your starting premise is wrong, which is why you have proposed such a boneheaded idea.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#113 - 2015-05-05 17:03:54 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
When it comes to making ISK Eve has always been a boring grindfest.

Time for a change then!

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2015-05-05 21:06:42 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
When it comes to making ISK Eve has always been a boring grindfest.

Time for a change then!


This wont change that though, it just limits the boring grindfest and frustrates players.

Suggest something to enhance PvE, not limit it. If anything CCP wants people to log in, not provide incentives to log out.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2015-05-05 23:08:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
When it comes to making ISK Eve has always been a boring grindfest.

Time for a change then!


This wont change that though, it just limits the boring grindfest and frustrates players.

Suggest something to enhance PvE, not limit it. If anything CCP wants people to log in, not provide incentives to log out.

heres an idea to make endlessly grinding pvp harder without arbitrary ****, just give the NPC factions their own patrolling fleets/raids like the drfiters, thats what you rat, and missions involve you finding a fleet within a particular system.

and then for nullsec you have pirate/empire fleets responding to you based on your recent activity. shot at some sansha rats? sansha fleets roaming your space now.

and maybe of course give the NPCs their own miners and pseudo-player "accounts" to balance out their productive and unit-spam abilities to be on par with just a really dedicated player group, and you have artifically created a new faction fighting in high/low/null without having to cry about whos fault this blue doughnut or that stagnant space is


basically, make PvE take time, but pay out more, so overall it makes relatively the same as now, but the payout comes in larger more spread out chunks. basically no more AFK-running missions.
ashley Eoner
#116 - 2015-05-06 02:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
When it comes to making ISK Eve has always been a boring grindfest.

Time for a change then!


This wont change that though, it just limits the boring grindfest and frustrates players.

Suggest something to enhance PvE, not limit it. If anything CCP wants people to log in, not provide incentives to log out.

heres an idea to make endlessly grinding pvp harder without arbitrary ****, just give the NPC factions their own patrolling fleets/raids like the drfiters, thats what you rat, and missions involve you finding a fleet within a particular system.

and then for nullsec you have pirate/empire fleets responding to you based on your recent activity. shot at some sansha rats? sansha fleets roaming your space now.

and maybe of course give the NPCs their own miners and pseudo-player "accounts" to balance out their productive and unit-spam abilities to be on par with just a really dedicated player group, and you have artifically created a new faction fighting in high/low/null without having to cry about whos fault this blue doughnut or that stagnant space is


basically, make PvE take time, but pay out more, so overall it makes relatively the same as now, but the payout comes in larger more spread out chunks. basically no more AFK-running missions.

For the first day MAYBE.. I guarantee you within days people will be exploiting the mechanic in ways you could never of imagined.

Anyone truely AFKing missions are not making that much isk per hour anyway.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#117 - 2015-05-06 17:28:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Suggest something to enhance PvE, not limit it. If anything CCP wants people to log in, not provide incentives to log out.

Enhancing PvE won't change the problem that those who grind 10 hours of "enhanced" PvE on 10 accounts get 100x more ISK than those who spend 1 hour on 1 account.

CCP wants you to do 2 things:
- pay them subscription money
- provide content for other players

A grinder drives out casual, subscribing PvE players and provide content to nobody as he is running an optimized farm that doesn't worth ganking and does no PvP.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#118 - 2015-05-06 18:07:15 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Suggest something to enhance PvE, not limit it. If anything CCP wants people to log in, not provide incentives to log out.

Enhancing PvE won't change the problem that those who grind 10 hours of "enhanced" PvE on 10 accounts get 100x more ISK than those who spend 1 hour on 1 account.

CCP wants you to do 2 things:
- pay them subscription money
- provide content for other players

A grinder drives out casual, subscribing PvE players and provide content to nobody as he is running an optimized farm that doesn't worth ganking and does no PvP.


So, the guy putting out at least 10x the effort-hours, and usually a higher level of effort during that time (due to the much harder nature of the level of multi-tasking for boxing efficiently, especially post ISboxer) should not be rewarded more? Not to be too blunt, but that sort of thing is responsible for half or more of the pants on head stupid that comes out of RL politicians too.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#119 - 2015-05-06 18:45:20 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Suggest something to enhance PvE, not limit it. If anything CCP wants people to log in, not provide incentives to log out.

Enhancing PvE won't change the problem that those who grind 10 hours of "enhanced" PvE on 10 accounts get 100x more ISK than those who spend 1 hour on 1 account.

CCP wants you to do 2 things:
- pay them subscription money
- provide content for other players

A grinder drives out casual, subscribing PvE players and provide content to nobody as he is running an optimized farm that doesn't worth ganking and does no PvP.


They are two separate issues. Note the word issues because I'm still waiting on the problem with having a small subset of players who can grind for 10 hours a day day-in-day-out.

As I noted, if such players drive up the price of PLEX that means the "lifer" can then use the fact he has a "life" and buy a PLEX and sell it to a "no lifer" and get a nice amount of isk.

Further, if there IS a problem, and I think you need to come up with more than, "He has lots of isk". There are two problems with this. First, it isn't clear how much of an advantage having lots of isk conveys. Second, lots of players have vast ISK holdings. If having a super fat wallet is the problem, then that suggests one possible solution is income redistribution.

Additionally, if the problem is the improved efficiency in accumulating wealth and resources due to things like ISBoxer, then an alternate and more elegant solution is to simply ban things like ISBoxer outright.

As for the claim that ISBoxer drives out casual players, on what are you basing this? As for ganking an ISBoxer...trust me there are pilots in this game that will gank just about anything. So you need more than statements.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2015-05-06 20:59:58 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Suggest something to enhance PvE, not limit it. If anything CCP wants people to log in, not provide incentives to log out.

Enhancing PvE won't change the problem that those who grind 10 hours of "enhanced" PvE on 10 accounts get 100x more ISK than those who spend 1 hour on 1 account.

CCP wants you to do 2 things:
- pay them subscription money
- provide content for other players

A grinder drives out casual, subscribing PvE players and provide content to nobody as he is running an optimized farm that doesn't worth ganking and does no PvP.

No life grinders and casual PvE players do the same thing save the grinders do it longer creating greater opportunity, and in the case of multiboxers more targets, to be "content." If that's the only metric those players are better for the game than casual, single account PvE players.

Also how does the grinder drive out the casual, and in what way is he less desirable to gank?