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WoW refugees and the future of EVE

Author
Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2015-05-03 10:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerhard Stringfellow
"TL;DR version, people should accept any kind of gameplay, because in a sandbox everybody does his/her part"




I agree that all gameplay should be accepted, and that includes the gameplay styles that are predatory to your livelihood in New Eden.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#182 - 2015-05-03 10:14:25 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Now if knly you stopped using PvP wrong ...

PvP isn't "ship combat" ...
... but "ship combat" is PvP.

(...)


LOL, you're preaching to the choir. Another of my old claims is that PvP should be more than shooting somebody's face. Trade, mining, et cetera, that's competition. Of course, you're competing against other players, so it's PvP too. But you're not destroying their assets, nor preventing the destruction of yours, unless you stop playing your way and play the agressor's way. I've always wondered why that's OK and nobody else challenges that assumption.

Thus, when it comes to destroying player assets, certain playstyles (favored by 62% of players) are very limited and there's some loopholes that allow some other players to destroy player assets without risk.

Risk in EVE is: what causes you to stop doing something.

You know that some players never face that. Others face it every time they undock.

What is more dangerous? Mine in a Hulk in highsec, or gank a Hulk in highsec? The only guy facing "unconsensual" risk it's the guy in the Hulk. If he wants to avoid it, no amount of playing his way will help him. He must play the ganker's way or stop flying the Hulk.

If that's a Sandbox, my aunt has wheels and is a bike. Roll

EVE would be a better game for everyone (but specially for the 62%) if ship combat was more than A's guns vs B's tank. Think of chess. Why is the knight such a powerful piece? Because it can kill (potentially) in as much as 8 checkers, without being blocked.

EVE certainly could use some of that sophistication.


Your analysis is only true if the guy in the Hulk refuses to take the most basic of options open to everyone in an MMO and work with other people.

You are effectively complaining that the rules of boxing are biased against you because you only want to fight with one hand tied behind your back and both eyes shut.


Last time I checked it, boxing was a solo sport, not a team sport. Lol

But I get your analogy. Just it's wrong. It's CCP who says that if you intend to chessbox, your arm will be tied to your back because there are no chess sets in EVE.

A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed.

A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable.

I despise the assumption that this is OK.

CCP tells us to choose between being cool predators or hapless prey. I'd rather suggest a middle ground of becoming dangerous prey.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2015-05-03 10:14:47 UTC
[/quote]

If no place in space was safe because concord didnt insta-blap you, and it wasn't a bannable offence to beat concord, then players would be forced into interacting with the game world and the rest of the players to improve their safety, and they'd STILL have hi-sec safety after all is said and done, because the'yd develop systems of gank protection on their own ships as well as overall system protection through other players patrolling **** and shooting down wanna-be baddies.

Your theory is entirely correct, and hi-sec play simply makes it effortlessly easy. Without it, players would still want this system, because you can't beat human nature. They prefer that system in real life, they'd prefer it in game, and it would be significantly more kick ass for the game to be fully player moderated to provide that kind of environment, rather than the whole concord-splat thing.
[/quote]

I agree with this completely.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear

Roberta Gastoni
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2015-05-03 10:19:09 UTC
Gerhard Stringfellow wrote:
"TL;DR version, people should accept any kind of gameplay, because in a sandbox everybody does his/her part"




I agree that all gameplay should be accepted, and that includes the gameplay styles that are predatory to your livelihood in New Eden.


You shouldn't quote me and rectify what I said like I said the opposite ;)
Jasmine Deer
Perkone
Caldari State
#185 - 2015-05-03 10:39:44 UTC
Yobu Khan wrote:


New players like me with similar concerns , from tutorials to economy to skills or pvp , and same old veterans telling people "this game is not for you, *** off, go back to wow ".



Surely those veterans also offered you some helpful advice - like HTFU as Eve is a DARK and HARSH Universe (tm).

Always so helpful those veterans.



Jenshae Chiroptera
#186 - 2015-05-03 11:09:28 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
.... A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable. ....
Wrong.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#187 - 2015-05-03 11:18:59 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed.

A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable.



I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. Both of those statements are simply incorrect.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2015-05-03 11:35:00 UTC
Roberta Gastoni wrote:
Gerhard Stringfellow wrote:
"TL;DR version, people should accept any kind of gameplay, because in a sandbox everybody does his/her part"




I agree that all gameplay should be accepted, and that includes the gameplay styles that are predatory to your livelihood in New Eden.


You shouldn't quote me and rectify what I said like I said the opposite ;)


That was wrong of me. I apologize.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#189 - 2015-05-03 11:39:10 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed.

A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable.



I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. Both of those statements are simply incorrect.


Look who it's coming from. Are you surprised?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2015-05-03 11:40:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed.

A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable.



I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. Both of those statements are simply incorrect.


I second that this is rubbish.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear

Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2015-05-03 11:42:39 UTC
Jasmine Deer wrote:
Yobu Khan wrote:


New players like me with similar concerns , from tutorials to economy to skills or pvp , and same old veterans telling people "this game is not for you, *** off, go back to wow ".



Surely those veterans also offered you some helpful advice - like HTFU as Eve is a DARK and HARSH Universe (tm).

Always so helpful those veterans.





And it was the best advice I ever received.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear

Omar Alharazaad
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#192 - 2015-05-03 12:01:49 UTC
Skiffs aren't dangerous prey?
I tried my hand at baiting miners a few weeks back in an enyo. Wiggled my lance to see what happened and all that....
Got two bites at the same time, was so excited. That is, until I realized that two full flights of bonused light drones from these monsters was more than enough to turn my assault frig into a ball of fire very quickly. I pondered this as I flew my fireball of 10% hull left back to the station.

There are numerous examples out there of prey turning out to have claws and fangs as well, you only have to look a little.
There's a huge difference between "I cannot defend myself" and "I cannot be bothered to expend the effort needed to defend myself".

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#193 - 2015-05-03 12:04:52 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed.

A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable.



I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. Both of those statements are simply incorrect.


Incorrect?

A full tanked Skiff haves about 64k EHP. Ships with higher EHP are ganked regularly in high security space. Thus, a Skiff can do everything allowed by CCP to avoid death, and still be ganked.

So claim 1: "A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed" is correct.


As for gankers, if they're willing to lose their ship and pod, they can destroy any player ship anywhere. It may take more than one ganker, but it's a matter of (combined DPS) x (CONCORD response in seconds) > Tank. Nothing a player does can avoid that as DPS escalates faster and better than tank.

So claim 2: "A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable" also is correct.


I don't get why you oppose it when it's quite obvious. Question

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#194 - 2015-05-03 12:08:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed.

A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable.



I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. Both of those statements are simply incorrect.


Look who it's coming from. Are you surprised?


Half a dozen skiffs with a couple of scythes should be well able to defend themselves from a 3 or 4 man gang in "real" PvP ships, let alone any plausible group of suicide Catalysts.

Ah, but then of course I'm forgetting the magic power that "gankers" have that they can always just conjure up an arbitrary number of extra all-V pilots from nowhere to defeat any possible defence.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2015-05-03 12:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerhard Stringfellow
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed.

A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable.



I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. Both of those statements are simply incorrect.


Incorrect?

A full tanked Skiff haves about 64k EHP. Ships with higher EHP are ganked regularly in high security space. Thus, a Skiff can do everything allowed by CCP to avoid death, and still be ganked.

So claim 1: "A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed" is correct.


As for gankers, if they're willing to lose their ship and pod, they can destroy any player ship anywhere. It may take more than one ganker, but it's a matter of (combined DPS) x (CONCORD response in seconds) > Tank. Nothing a player does can avoid that as DPS escalates faster and better than tank.

So claim 2: "A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable" also is correct.


I don't get why you oppose it when it's quite obvious. Question


Yes, stacking enough ships with enough firepower does mean anything can be ganked. As it should be.

Just because it can be killed doesn't mean it will and doesn't mean that pilots will always bring what's necessary to do it. Appealing targets are weaker; you'd be hard pressed to find a trillion catalyst pilots willing to throw it away for one skiff. There is the return of it all to consider after all, unless it's just for fun. And even if it's a recreational gank, eventually cost will become a factor.

"A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable" also is correct. That would be better phrased as "gankers willing to lose THEIR ships and pods are unstoppable" with the caveat that you specify lots of gankers with lots of firepower. A fully tanked skiff isn't worth going after, and doesn't have much to worry about.

I'd also add that what I believe these people are saying is that, a fully tanked ship is very very likely to survive. If you want to be more survivable, bring some friends. If you want 100% certainty on anything, you're in the wrong game.

Quote:
Half a dozen skiffs with a couple of scythes should be well able to defend themselves from a 3 or 4 man gang in "real" PvP ships, let alone any plausible group of suicide Catalysts.

Ah, but then of course I'm forgetting the magic power that "gankers" have that they can always just conjure up an arbitrary number of extra all-V pilots from nowhere to defeat any possible defence.


You said it better than I did.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#196 - 2015-05-03 12:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
CCP tells us to choose between being cool predators or hapless prey. I'd rather suggest a middle ground of becoming dangerous prey.
If you want to become dangerous prey, start acting like it.

Keeping with the animal analogy, an untanked afk Retriever in the belt is a Sheep, the tanked up Procurer next to it with the player at the controls is a bad tempered Alpaca that makes predators think twice.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#197 - 2015-05-03 12:25:04 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed.

A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable.



I'm sorry but this is absolute rubbish. Both of those statements are simply incorrect.


Incorrect?

A full tanked Skiff haves about 64k EHP. Ships with higher EHP are ganked regularly in high security space. Thus, a Skiff can do everything allowed by CCP to avoid death, and still be ganked.

So claim 1: "A fleeted tanked Skiff tuned to a intel channel can always be destroyed" is correct.


As for gankers, if they're willing to lose their ship and pod, they can destroy any player ship anywhere. It may take more than one ganker, but it's a matter of (combined DPS) x (CONCORD response in seconds) > Tank. Nothing a player does can avoid that as DPS escalates faster and better than tank.

So claim 2: "A ganker willing to lose his ship and pod is unstoppable" also is correct.


I don't get why you oppose it when it's quite obvious. Question


A careless AFK skiff pilot with a bad fit can always be destroyed.

A skiff pilot who groups up with 5 friends and they all have good 100k EHP/200 DPS fits that take into account that they are risking attack (and why are you flying a skiff if you're not worried about being attacked?) and are actually prepared to shoot back (1 slot free for point or web or TP or TD or other EW) has little to fear from anything except a meticulously pre-planned and highly motivated attack.

A dozen Garde IIs backed up by web, point and a couple of Target Painters will reliably blap a suicide-fitted Catalyst each cycle. You can even have 5/6 guys AFK as long as they assign their drones to the 6th guy keeping a watch.

Even if you don't want to shoot back, that half-dozen strong skiff group can apply 25 light shield drones to whoever gets shot at, and the target has the option of overheating his shield hardeners, giving him 120k EHP and a 500 DPS tank.

But as I said, this relies stepping into the ring without the mindset that you're entitled to an equal outcome even though you have both eyes shut and you have deliberately tied your own hands behind your back.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#198 - 2015-05-03 12:28:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

But as I said, this relies stepping into the ring without the mindset that you're entitled to an equal outcome even though you have both eyes shut and you have deliberately tied your own hands behind your back.


Of course, that's what carebears want, after all.

They feel entitled to deliberately play the game wrong and never have to lose. What they want is a Facebook game with EVE's graphics.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#199 - 2015-05-03 12:32:40 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


CCP tells us to choose between being cool predators or hapless prey. I'd rather suggest a middle ground of becoming dangerous prey.



Agreed, but there's nothing "dangerous" about whining on forums about how "gankers" will always win. If you genuinely want to be "dangerous prey", act like it.

[Skiff, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender II

Garde II x2
Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5
Warrior II x5

~100k EHP. 200 DPS with garde IIs. Frigate-class lockspeed. Targetting range is a bit low but if you're worried about people flying gank destroyers, that's not much of a problem.


Fly in a group, like the gankers do. Plan for contingencies like the gankers do. Have your fleet organised with an FC like the gankers do. Make sure you have enough tackle like the gankers do (Skiffs have surprisngly good lockspeed; at least one of your skiffs should have a long point, another a web, and so on).

Actually put some effort in game into being dangerous instead of just endangering the game by making foolish demands on the forum.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Dyner
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2015-05-03 16:52:04 UTC
And here I thought people would just play games they enjoyed. Ugh