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WoW refugees and the future of EVE
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Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#141 - 2015-05-02 06:51:07 UTC
On the other side of the coin....

EVE can seriously ruin a player's ability to adapt to and enjoy other types of MMO as well. After a while you get the whole 'predator/prey' mindset going on and start to view those around you in that manner. With effort I've managed to suppress this while interacting with others in the past, but it does tend to cause awkward moments when folks ask you about what you did in EVE. Something something frozen corpses, something something mountain of loot taken from player wrecks... why did comms just go super quiet?

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Josef Djugashvilis
#142 - 2015-05-02 06:59:28 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Aren't we special? lol


Prety much sums up what is wrong with some Eve players.

Elite because one plays a particular computer game...Jeez, get a life.

This is not a signature.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#143 - 2015-05-02 07:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
My "scoff" is based on the fact that your arbitrary choices and reasons are just that; arbitrary.

EvE isn't a PvP based game, in that PvP is not the core mechanic that the game exists around. Now, Im sure you will give me some guff about every action being some kind of PvP, but at the end of the day the game was not designed soley as a player vs Player battle game. Otherwise, why do all the other things exist and why is the combat engine so... poor?

EVE is a 100% PvP based games in that every core game mechanic revolves around PvP, even the ones that are ostensibly PvE.

There are three parts to EVE: the market, industry, and combat. The market runs because combat creates demand for industry to supply, and that demand can only be held high by player conflict generating enough combat losses. Industry is a player conflict over resources and over customers and also generates a supply of combat targets (be it players or installations). The market is perhaps the fiercest PvP arena in the game, where billions of ISK is won or lost on trying to beat the other guy to the best price and trying to predict where the herd will move next. All of it is PvP; all of it relies on PvP; all of it exists to supply and provide PvP; if you remove PvP from the game, the game instantly comes to a halt and ceases to function — that is what makes it a PvP-based game, not some arbitrary (and rather incorrect) value judgement of “the combat engine” (or indeed any other minor cog in the machinery).

By the way, the combat engine isn't poor. The combat engine is simply scaled to cope with the size of conflicts needed to feed the machinery of industry and economy at a sufficient pace. It is fit for purpose, and that purpose is to keep the world turning. The game was designed from the ground up to be a large-scale PvP battle game, and the world simulation, like everything else, is designed with that in mind.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2015-05-02 07:49:25 UTC
What Tippia said. TLDR: EVE was designed from the outset with PVP in mind, and being intended as a PVP game, everything that isn't PVP is intended to accommodate PVP. Denial and/or refusal to accept this will only make the game harder on you.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Oxide Ammar
#145 - 2015-05-02 08:59:47 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Iam The Flash wrote:
You people are truly pathetic.

You make a forum thread for *like and get likes* just to up *your counter* so it looks like people like you.

You destroy null sec by infesting empire with grifer alts because you people don't want to look for fights anymore, u'd rather camp market hubs and then complain on the forums about lack of pvp in null when it's you, the so called null pvpers who are to blame.

You constantly slam WoW, even tho it has over 7 million players worldwide and we don't even have 3/4 of a million because EvE is so broke it's a joke.

You constantly screw up empire market prices by slamming frieghters non stop and slamming barges for lols non stop.

You, the PvP population are single handedly destroying EvE and you have the audacity to come on here and COMPLAIN about ship skins and low numbers online.

You use grifer alts to destroy new player corps non stop for then damn lols of it.

You're pathetic.

Alll the problems with EvE, you have only yourselves to blame

Glorious tears.

You people

Also, I looked at the LAGL thread, I see you posted there a few times, hypocrite.


It doesn't matter, he still right about what he said.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#146 - 2015-05-02 09:33:02 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Iam The Flash wrote:
You people are truly pathetic.

You make a forum thread for *like and get likes* just to up *your counter* so it looks like people like you.

You destroy null sec by infesting empire with grifer alts because you people don't want to look for fights anymore, u'd rather camp market hubs and then complain on the forums about lack of pvp in null when it's you, the so called null pvpers who are to blame.

You constantly slam WoW, even tho it has over 7 million players worldwide and we don't even have 3/4 of a million because EvE is so broke it's a joke.

You constantly screw up empire market prices by slamming frieghters non stop and slamming barges for lols non stop.

You, the PvP population are single handedly destroying EvE and you have the audacity to come on here and COMPLAIN about ship skins and low numbers online.

You use grifer alts to destroy new player corps non stop for then damn lols of it.

You're pathetic.

Alll the problems with EvE, you have only yourselves to blame

Glorious tears.

You people

Also, I looked at the LAGL thread, I see you posted there a few times, hypocrite.


It doesn't matter, he still right about what he said.

No, no he isnt, the only even vaguely valid point he has is a petulant whine about what people chose to do on an internet forum. As for his idiotic comment about WoW he does realise what a niche market is right?? Eve was never designed as a mass market MMO so trying to compare simple sub numbers while ignoring every other factor is just plain stupid.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome
Yobu Khan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2015-05-02 11:08:15 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Harrison Tato wrote:
Aren't we special? lol


Prety much sums up what is wrong with some Eve players.

Elite because one plays a particular computer game...Jeez, get a life.
Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2015-05-02 12:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerhard Stringfellow
Solecist Project wrote:
Gerhard Stringfellow wrote:
Yobu Khan wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
[quote=13kr1d1]You can't fly solo and achieve.

Sure you can.
Everyone can.

Most just aren't capable of doing so.

Like all the weaklings in RvB, EVEUNI l, BNI, NullSec, CODE., ...
A shitton of nonachievers who are nothing without the group.


Except that it does show capability to create fleet doctrines, manage somehow to keep a group together (no shortage of corps can't even do that), and make your goals interesting enough that people will continue to listen to you when they could quit at any time. If you don't like the fact that you're getting killed by larger numbers, it doesn't mean they aren't "skilled", it just means you don't understand a lesson that certainly applies in EvE and also in life.

My guess is if you don't like groups, you're probably "elite solo pve" in hi-sec, which is anything but that. EvE is a social game, and if you try to play it solo you're going to be an appetizing target for getting space jumped. And it's kind of silly to criticize it for people being overly social, considering what generally draws people to the game now are the reports of big battles and how active the playerbase is in creating content (null empires). Honestly, without the stories created by null-sec, CODE, and the other active organizations, the story for EvE isn't very compelling in inspiring the playerbase (compared to having grown up on WC2 and WC3 and finally having had an opportunity to explore it with an avatar in WoW) but regardless EvE is an infinitely better and more interesting game because it gives players so much freedom to affect the universe, but like anything there is a real limit to what one person can do, and the way people really become wealthy and powerful is by involving other people.

But trying to fall back on "they don't have skill because there are lots of them" only serves to illustrate how little you understand the game and the tasks that go with being anything other than a kitchen sink FC.
So you agree that most people aren't capable.

They need others, FCs, to hold their hand.
F1 pushers aren't solo achievers either.

That's reality in all of these big groups.

Stopped at half, because you are ignorant of paragraphs.

Maybe learn reading and interpreting text properly.


It's alright, all you really missed was me waxing about WC2 and WC3, which were both super, and how indirectly I'd secretly in my heart of hearts wished WoW would be like EvE in Azeroth in terms of open endedness.

Back to the point, I wouldn't say FC's do as much as hand holding as they do keeping fleets organized for the task at hand, at least when it's done properly. I'd ask what you want EvE to be if you don't like fleets and alliances; should there be a quest to slay the Amarr Emperor and uncover an insidious plot to overthrow all of hi-sec by NPC's for l337 PvE action? And everybody should get to make multiple runs of it to get cool purple l337 items for their ships?

If that's what makes you as a solo player feel special and accomplished, there's a grocery list of MMO's out there that do just that. What makes EvE cool is the fact that if they ever make a real history of this game it will be something other than stupid adventure scenarios dreamed up by bad writers.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#149 - 2015-05-02 14:04:21 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
GenericForumAlt 1267389 wrote:
... CCP is a company and making the game more appealing or easier gets subs. ...
... and yet, the easier EVE gets the lower the average online players drops if you look at 3 months, 6 months, year and 5 years.

I agree that CCP can reduce complexity but not at the expense of depth.


Maybe it's the opposite correlation... EVE gets "easier" as the future prospects grow bleaker.

See, I've been sporting for years that my view of the elephant is right. EVE is a game that's being paid for by people who don't like it, who play it wrong, who are not in it for the PvP.

Can we count individuals? Yes we can. CCP did. It turns that 62% of all the subscribers (individuals who give money to CCP) avoid or ignore PvP. Or, in other words, PvP only interests 38% of the subscribers.

So this your precious PvP game: it's being paid for by PvErs.

Can we count where do characters stay? Yes we can. CCP did. It turns that 80% of all characters logged in stay in high security space.

Can we count the damage (HP) inflicted by players? Yes we can. CCP did. I turns that NPCs take 150 damage for each HP of damage inflicted on player assets.

See a pattern here? Pick a random EVE player, and you have 62% chances that he's not PvPing, 80% chances that he's in highsec and 150 to 1 chances that he's doing damage to NPCs rather than other players...

The average EVE player is a highsec PvEr

The key of EVE's success it's been to churn PvErs happily while bragging about PvP. That's not unusual; marketing and reality rarely meet each other.

The only little issue is that EVE had the less-worst PvE in industry, but now faces the competence from games whose PvE may be better than EVE's. Plus, EVE has been exploiting a limited pool of PvErs who still hadn't tried EVE, and that pool may be drying up after 12 years of exploitation.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Solecist Project
#150 - 2015-05-02 14:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Citation needed.
Carebears over and over again have shown that they make up numbers.

There is absolutely no reason to believe anything you have written, at all.

Not only do I not trust your ability to not be fooled by your own prejudice ...
... but I also do not trust your ability to seperate between players and characters.


So ... citation.

Unlike carebears, people like me actually care about numbers and don't make **** up.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#151 - 2015-05-02 14:38:48 UTC
Gerhard Stringfellow wrote:

Back to the point, I wouldn't say FC's do as much as hand holding as they do keeping fleets organized for the task at hand, at least when it's done properly. I'd ask what you want EvE to be if you don't like fleets and alliances; should there be a quest to slay the Amarr Emperor and uncover an insidious plot to overthrow all of hi-sec by NPC's for l337 PvE action? And everybody should get to make multiple runs of it to get cool purple l337 items for their ships?

If that's what makes you as a solo player feel special and accomplished, there's a grocery list of MMO's out there that do just that. What makes EvE cool is the fact that if they ever make a real history of this game it will be something other than stupid adventure scenarios dreamed up by bad writers.
Without FCs many people would not play at all.
If you doubt that, go check out RvB ... that's just one, but massive, example.
It was the same when I checked out BNI.
People do not do anything unless there's someone holding their hand for them.
Except whining about the lack of FCs.

This went so overboard that there's now a reward program for people who want to FC.

Think about what that means. It means that the majority of people are followers ...
... sheep ...
... who need a figure of authority to tell them what to do.

And then most they do is press F1.



I have no idea why you now turn this into something about me.
I am in no way or form the average solo player.

And just because I play solo ...
... doesn't mean I play isolated.

There's a major difference between the two.

I do not need other people to tell me what to do.

It's *me* who gets things done.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2015-05-02 14:41:32 UTC
Citations? CITATIONS!?

WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' CITATIONS! Everyone KNOWS the moon landing was an inside job and 9/11 was staged on a Hollywood set. Citations are just another stonewalling method for the power elite to keep their secrets and keep us enslaved, WAKE UP SHEEPLE!

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2015-05-02 14:44:15 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

I have no idea why you now turn this into something about me.


Admit it, you love the attention.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Tristan Valentina
Moira.
#154 - 2015-05-02 17:07:18 UTC
Why do people keep thinking that the public cares what they see?

My only complaint with CCP is that they dont understand what micro means (The change in my wallet CCP not the bills.)

But again I ask the OP and everyone else why would the public care about what you as an individual have seen? Video game forums are like the only place I see this and it really is starting to need an expliantion.

Maybe I just spend to much time looking at the IGS.


Tristan
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#155 - 2015-05-02 17:37:27 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Citation needed.
Carebears over and over again have shown that they make up numbers.

There is absolutely no reason to believe anything you have written, at all.

Not only do I not trust your ability to not be fooled by your own prejudice ...
... but I also do not trust your ability to seperate between players and characters.


So ... citation.

Unlike carebears, people like me actually care about numbers and don't make **** up.


You ask numbers, I give you numbers.

On what do subscribers pay for with their money:

https://youtu.be/gJlNGtXts_E?t=21m20s

"Professionals" (do everything): 30%
"Entrepreneurs" (do everything but PvP): 25%
"Agressors" (only do PvP and socialize): 8%
"Socials" (they mostly socialize and skillqueue online): 12%
"Traditionals" (They PvE and play EVE as a traditional MMO): 25%

25% +25% +12% =62% of players who barely do PvP.

On where are characters logged in:

https://twitter.com/CCPQuant/status/590854488405192704/photo/1

(My fault. It's ~75% characters in high security, not 80%... we could use a larger image, though)

On how is inficted damage:

https://youtu.be/gJlNGtXts_E?t=15m30s

CONCORD to players: 3 million HP/day
Players to Players: 385 million HP/day
NPC to players: 4,400 million HP/day
Players to structures: 4,600 million HP/day
Players to NPCs: 24,000 million HP/day

My fault, too. It's only 62 times more damage to NPCs than to players.

So you have this game where 62% of players rarely engage in PvP, where 75% of characters stay in the parts of map with lesser chance of PvP and where players inflict 62 HP of damage to NPCs for each HP they inflict upon other players...

Obviously it's a PvP game, right? Same as platypus is a mammal, just a venomous egglaying duck-billed one...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#156 - 2015-05-02 17:38:46 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
GenericForumAlt 1267389 wrote:
... CCP is a company and making the game more appealing or easier gets subs. ...
... and yet, the easier EVE gets the lower the average online players drops if you look at 3 months, 6 months, year and 5 years.

I agree that CCP can reduce complexity but not at the expense of depth.


Maybe it's the opposite correlation... EVE gets "easier" as the future prospects grow bleaker.

See, I've been sporting for years that my view of the elephant is right. EVE is a game that's being paid for by people who don't like it, who play it wrong, who are not in it for the PvP.

Can we count individuals? Yes we can. CCP did. It turns that 62% of all the subscribers (individuals who give money to CCP) avoid or ignore PvP. Or, in other words, PvP only interests 38% of the subscribers.

So this your precious PvP game: it's being paid for by PvErs.

Can we count where do characters stay? Yes we can. CCP did. It turns that 80% of all characters logged in stay in high security space.

Can we count the damage (HP) inflicted by players? Yes we can. CCP did. I turns that NPCs take 150 damage for each HP of damage inflicted on player assets.

See a pattern here? Pick a random EVE player, and you have 62% chances that he's not PvPing, 80% chances that he's in highsec and 150 to 1 chances that he's doing damage to NPCs rather than other players...

The average EVE player is a highsec PvEr

The key of EVE's success it's been to churn PvErs happily while bragging about PvP. That's not unusual; marketing and reality rarely meet each other.

The only little issue is that EVE had the less-worst PvE in industry, but now faces the competence from games whose PvE may be better than EVE's. Plus, EVE has been exploiting a limited pool of PvErs who still hadn't tried EVE, and that pool may be drying up after 12 years of exploitation.


Translation: If CCP would only cater to me, everything would be fine.


You try to draw a distinction between pvp and pve where one doesn't exist, and you try to imagine that other people are like you (in an attempt to convince CCP to change the game, what you do is metagaming, and you do it very poorly). All this rather than simply admitting the truth: You and EVE aren't compatible.
Solecist Project
#157 - 2015-05-02 19:08:58 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Citation needed.
Carebears over and over again have shown that they make up numbers.

There is absolutely no reason to believe anything you have written, at all.

Not only do I not trust your ability to not be fooled by your own prejudice ...
... but I also do not trust your ability to seperate between players and characters.


So ... citation.

Unlike carebears, people like me actually care about numbers and don't make **** up.


You ask numbers, I give you numbers.

On what do subscribers pay for with their money:

https://youtu.be/gJlNGtXts_E?t=21m20s

"Professionals" (do everything): 30%
"Entrepreneurs" (do everything but PvP): 25%
"Agressors" (only do PvP and socialize): 8%
"Socials" (they mostly socialize and skillqueue online): 12%
"Traditionals" (They PvE and play EVE as a traditional MMO): 25%

25% +25% +12% =62% of players who barely do PvP.

On where are characters logged in:

https://twitter.com/CCPQuant/status/590854488405192704/photo/1

(My fault. It's ~75% characters in high security, not 80%... we could use a larger image, though)

On how is inficted damage:

https://youtu.be/gJlNGtXts_E?t=15m30s

CONCORD to players: 3 million HP/day
Players to Players: 385 million HP/day
NPC to players: 4,400 million HP/day
Players to structures: 4,600 million HP/day
Players to NPCs: 24,000 million HP/day

My fault, too. It's only 62 times more damage to NPCs than to players.

So you have this game where 62% of players rarely engage in PvP, where 75% of characters stay in the parts of map with lesser chance of PvP and where players inflict 62 HP of damage to NPCs for each HP they inflict upon other players...

Obviously it's a PvP game, right? Same as platypus is a mammal, just a venomous egglaying duck-billed one...

Well done. :)

Hey look, suicide ganking is not really an issue according to this.

Thanks! ^_^

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solecist Project
#158 - 2015-05-02 19:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Now if knly you stopped using PvP wrong ...

PvP isn't "ship combat" ...
... but "ship combat" is PvP.

Get that into your head and you elevated yourself even further.
It's seriously the stupidest thing people ever say.

The reason you need to do this is because ...

... 1. it's the only correct way of doing it.
... 2. Trading is PvP too, as example.

What the numbers don't tell us is if lack of meaningfull wars in EVE are influencing this.
Also to prevent Tippia coming up with it ....

EVE is still a a PvP (I use it correctly, remember) based game
without the rest simply wouldn't work.

Oh and I'd like to add that population numbers are skewed ...
... because of highsec alta of nullseccers.

Though that doesn't mean they aren't possibly carebears anyway ...
... lack or combat in current null means that we need to wait for adjusted numbers.

FozzySov might as well change it significantly.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Paranoid Loyd
#159 - 2015-05-02 19:22:24 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Iam The Flash wrote:
You people are truly pathetic.

You make a forum thread for *like and get likes* just to up *your counter* so it looks like people like you.

You destroy null sec by infesting empire with grifer alts because you people don't want to look for fights anymore, u'd rather camp market hubs and then complain on the forums about lack of pvp in null when it's you, the so called null pvpers who are to blame.

You constantly slam WoW, even tho it has over 7 million players worldwide and we don't even have 3/4 of a million because EvE is so broke it's a joke.

You constantly screw up empire market prices by slamming frieghters non stop and slamming barges for lols non stop.

You, the PvP population are single handedly destroying EvE and you have the audacity to come on here and COMPLAIN about ship skins and low numbers online.

You use grifer alts to destroy new player corps non stop for then damn lols of it.

You're pathetic.

Alll the problems with EvE, you have only yourselves to blame

Glorious tears.

You people

Also, I looked at the LAGL thread, I see you posted there a few times, hypocrite.


It doesn't matter, he still right about what he said.

What doesn't matter?

The fact that he is crying like a child about anonymous forum posters half of which are just trolling, or the fact that he uses all encompassing terms like "you people" when none of us have the exact same opinion about anything, or is it that it doesn't matter that he is bagging on people for doing something when he did the exact same thing?

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Solecist Project
#160 - 2015-05-02 19:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Yobu Khan wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
You can't fly solo and achieve.

Sure you can.
Everyone can.

Most just aren't capable of doing so.

Like all the weaklings in RvB, EVEUNI l, BNI, NullSec, CODE., ...
A shitton of nonachievers who are nothing without the group.


Eh , i hate to break it to u , but u arent special or anything.Capable? Its a point and click game, Hello?

If smebody is running around more cocky than somebody else its 98 % Cause :
1.some millions more skills
2.some billion more ISK.
3.some more buddies
4.some x years of experience

that 2 % remaining is propably the "Capable".

Ignorance is Strength, ey?

Not a single point you listed makes anyone capable.

Skills have a levelcap and only a limited subset is ever used in a ship.
Money doesn't buy you a winning ticket ... or intelligence, creativity, etc.
Friends don't make you capable, they allow you to hide your incapabilities.
Experience comes from capability, even if it's just the capability to realise that trying means learning.


So thanks, you show that you have no clue of the game
and aren't really understanding it ... or much playing it.

If all you do is point and click then it's no wonder you believe the crap you wrote.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia