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WoW refugees and the future of EVE

Author
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#121 - 2015-05-01 14:24:34 UTC
Gerhard Stringfellow wrote:

If you really don't like getting ganked in Hi-sec....


...stop making yourself a target and get some paranoia, goddamnit.


It aint hard.
Solecist Project
#122 - 2015-05-01 14:26:07 UTC
I'll pick this apart.

13kr1d1 wrote:
...

> While I disagree with you on the premise that mining laser do not kill enemy ships,
> and that mining ships are terribly inefficient at pvp,
> I agree with you to the point that people can fly together, and choose not to.


Mining lasers kill enemy ships? Am I misunderstanding?
I'm not sure how effeciency matters, but skiffs are badass ships for combat.
The drone bonus makes quite a difference. (that's why the Fozzman added it)



> I continue to assert that a lot of the problems of Eve online happen to be through the people being a herd of cats.
> People don't want to work together.


More accurately speaking, most people only care about themselves and only see exactly that far.
These people can be actually observed through their ingame actions, their chatting and their posts.



> Maybe its irony that people who want to be "the ultimate badass killer" are antisocial
> even to the point of working together helpfully.


Not sure what the Irony would be here.
Who are you referring to anyway?

People like CODE ?

I'm wondering, because this applies to the actual griefers, the carebears.

They are extremely antisocial, literally hate on everyone who doesn't agree with them,
especially hate on the players and not the characters,
and they always somehow pretend to be badass and superior, while only shooting NPCs.
And it's not a coincidence that so many of them pick the amarrian race.

Many many people of the wester "civilised" world unknowingly live by the motto: Ignorance is Strength.
Anyone who doesn't see how this applies might be a part of the problem.



> Maybe its irony that people who want to mine alone in peace
> don't get that they need others watching their back to have that peaceful alone time.


Again ... no clue about the irony.

They do that, because they desire the isolation. Not having to deal with others
avoids any risk of having to be confronted with one's own inadequacies.



> In the ideal eve, miners buy combat pilots who fly ops to cover a section of lowsec or high sec,
> these costs then being offset by raising the price of mined ore.
> Thats one of the problems of industry and miners.
> They undersell themselves so much they cant afford actual protection.


This needs correction, because you make a conclusion based on only a fraction of the information.

First, there must be a part in this group who simply does not know better.
"Minerals I mine are free" pretty much equals either cluelessness about time management.
People who exchange time for ISK still have a point, but it's a rather isolated and inefficient one.



> Their profit margins are so low because they lack business sense,
> that they cant deal with any bumps of sudden necessary expenditures.


And here's the thing. The margins don't matter at all.
The majority of people simply does not even consider it for various reasons.

It's either unknowingness about how the game works and how this is actually possible ...
... or it's part of the "Ignorance is Strength" livestyle and thus equally unknown to them.

You might want to call it a limited spectrum of thoughts and ideas. Ignorance.



> In the ideal eve, people do work with other players,
> rather than seeing them as an inconvenience or an obstable to sole play.


I agree, that'd be ideal. And I also agree that at some point in time many, many players
will realise others as inconvencience, annoyance or an obstacle ... with various ways of reactions.



> Why do you play an online multiplayer game to hide in a hole and play it solo?
> If you want to do that, there's any number of 80's-90's games of SpaceTrader(tm),
> that dont have a consistent sub cost, are much cheaper for the original product/cd,
> and achieve the same thing you're doing in this game.


These people do that, because that's how they work. Ignorance is Strength, or they don't know better.
I can not tell if MMOs turned these people into that, or if the MMOs adapted to people being like that,
but the MMO market pretty much works that way.


(1/2)

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#123 - 2015-05-01 14:31:47 UTC
Why the hate for Amarr :(



Solecist Project
#124 - 2015-05-01 14:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
It targets these people. They offer a lie of a massively multiplaying world where thousands play together,
while actually giving people exactly what they want. Isolation and the illusion of being superior.
Again here the hint at the amarrians.


> Of course, the other part of the problem is people who actively pirate miners,
> when they usually fly as someone who tries to get paid to fight for other corps in wardecs.
> Blowing up potential employers gets you jollies in the short run, but cuts you off from long term profits.


I *would* agree on that if it wasn't for the fact that people who get killed most likely had no idea about it,
or simply did not care enough to tank or hire protection. Protection, btw, collides with the fake idea
of being superior to others.


> Without cooperation, even if its just outsourcing a part of your business model,
> you can't survive in eve, especially as a non-combat.


I disagree, but it's far beyond the abilities of these people.



> Ironically, as much as people using alts, to farm while they pirate with their main,
> can be said to be as risk averse as highsec carebears, they still actually do cooperate with others,
> by being part of some null alliance space where they can farm with their alts,
> to funnel all their profits to their main in order to fun their pvp adventures in lowsec or null.


That's a bit limited, because not everyone does that. I don't do it. I don't farm anywhere, actually.
I'm sure that most people in highsec also don't have a null-alt, but we might find out eventually.



> The reason you win at single player games is because the game is designed to let you win.

Which also applies to MMOs. Except EVE, of course. In this post, when I mention MMOs,
then I always talk about the ones who do not actually deserve the title.




There.
Much more verbose.


In any way do we most likely have to live with the fact that things will not change.
It will just get worse, as these people will spawn children who are *most likely* going to be even worse than that.

As we can not expect people to vote anyone who did not deliberately manipulate them to it ...
... and we even less can expect anyone to actually step up and try to make things right ...
... (besides him most likely getting killed anyway) ...
... this game eventually has to cater to these people.

Players like myself are a minority.
Eventually we'll just phase out slowly.


What's really funny about this is the fact that it was *predicted a long time ago* that people will turn into this.

I wonder how many people now come up with a robotic "conspiracy" scream, although it's factually true.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Solecist Project
#125 - 2015-05-01 14:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
The Golden Serpent wrote:
I think WoW and Eve are both good games...totally different though.
Just want to take this line as it fits.

I agree, depending on the POV.


If you say that WoW is a good came for reaching it's target audience ... yes, absolutely.

On the other hand it's a freaking nightmare how WoW and almost every other game
actually makes the whole situation worse, because they do not even try to engineer people.

Companies don't want proper gamers who love challenges ...
... they want people they can easily manipulate ...
... so they have it easier to satisfy their lower instincts.

Same, btw, goes for eye-candy.

So if we watch it from this POV, WoW is one of the worst games in existence.


I played in the 80s and 90s.
Most games out there are no challenge at all ...
... deliberately avoid making people actually think ...
... and target the lowest common denominator.

These are the ones who are too stupid for a challenge ...
... constantly want to remind themselves how great they are ...
... and at the same time the easiest to manipulate and milk.


Welcome to 2015.
At some point in time companies realised how psychology and neuroscience can be used
to slowly engineer the upcoming generation of gamers into addicted, paying idiots.

They realised that, when they give people satisfaction, they can hook them more easily.
Less obstacles = higher profits.

Can not risk people aren't happy.
Can not risk people not wanting to improve themselves.
Can not risk people being unhappy with a game they are unable to beat.

Spoiled idiots.



And then there comes someone like Feyd who seems to have adapted carebear-logic ...
... and believes that removing risk somehow fixes risk-averse behavior instead of actually reinforcing it.


Anyway ... I'm done. :p

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

SpaceyJoe Mentat
Kollectorz
#126 - 2015-05-01 17:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: SpaceyJoe Mentat
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
SpaceyJoe Mentat wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Catering to the same player base as most other MMO is not a safe bet. Look at all the wow killers...


Eve has pretty securely established its niche in the PVP gaming community:

Eve = World PVP king
WoW = Arena and BG
ESO = AvA
PS2 = mmofps
LoL = "E Sport" king

Cash shops are popping up all over the industry; until ccp makes an instanced arena/bg system they aren't catering to the WoW pvp crowd.


Why would they want to?


Never said they did, just making the point that WoW's niche is not their cash shop... and the cash shop is not why people play WoW.

Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:

And just no. Just totally no. Your list... no.


Eve- Whats a better/bigger world PVP based game?
WoW- What is a bigger and longer running arena/bg based PVP game?
ESO - New, but elder scrolls franchise and is about to drop on console, one to watch ;)
Planetside franchise- what is a longer running and more populated mmofps?
League of legend- lol just check the twitch numbers on that one if you haven't seen them... 100k+ viewers constantly.

What is you argument beyond a pretentious scoff?
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#127 - 2015-05-01 17:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ma'Baker McCandless
SpaceyJoe Mentat wrote:


Eve- Whats a better/bigger world PVP based game?
WoW- What is a bigger and longer running arena/bg based PVP game?
ESO - New, but elder scrolls franchise and is about to drop on console, one to watch ;)
Planetside franchise- what is a longer running and more populated mmofps?
League of legend- lol just check the twitch numbers on that one if you haven't seen them... 100k+ viewers constantly.

What is you argument beyond a pretentious scoff?


Defensive, aren't we?

My "scoff" is based on the fact that your arbitrary choices and reasons are just that; arbitrary.

EvE isn't a PvP based game, in that PvP is not the core mechanic that the game exists around. Now, Im sure you will give me some guff about every action being some kind of PvP, but at the end of the day the game was not designed soley as a player vs Player battle game. Otherwise, why do all the other things exist and why is the combat engine so... poor?

WoW is not an Arena game primarily. Dont be ridiculous.

ESO will be dead within 18months.

Planetside? No idea. Pass. Dont know any one who plays it so I cant comment other than it looks dull as hell.

League: sorry if you think League is popular I guess you never heard of Starcraft.

Also popularity is no guage of quality.

Also, World of Tanks isnt even on your list, and has one of the best FTP models in the industry.

So basically, I scoff at your list because it shows no research and is little better than an IGN poll.

And none of these games are the same genre as EvE, so this list is meaningless
Solecist Project
#128 - 2015-05-01 18:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
Why the hate for Amarr :(
It's not my fault.
Just look at what they portrait.

They are the self perceived master race.
They are extremely religious.
They have slaves.
They even look like assholes.

I am talking about that one subrace specifically.
"The old men". I never played Amarr, I don't recall them.

If you know the lore, then you know what I am talking about.


Now just combine and compare the typical characteristica of hating carebears,
amarrians and religious people in the US and conservatives.

A strong tendency to hypocrisy is one of the many they all share, as example.


If "superiority complex" comes to your mind ...
... then you hit the nail on the head.


Of course there are varying degrees of everything, but the general tendency is actually observable!
(I often wonder if posts like these make people reconsider and influence the meta)


We can, in fact, find people who strongly tend to behave like this literally everywhere.


They also have a tendency to post on the forums.



I drifted off "Amarrians" a bit. :p

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#129 - 2015-05-01 18:33:25 UTC
Sorry I offend you with my presence
Freya Sertan
Doomheim
#130 - 2015-05-01 20:23:02 UTC
I can't possibly offend due to being Amarrian. I'm way too hot to offend.

New Eden isn't nice. It isn't friendly. It isn't very hospitiable. Good thing there are people here to shoot in the face.

Want to make New Eden a nice place? Try this out.

Yobu Khan
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2015-05-01 21:31:35 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
You can't fly solo and achieve.

Sure you can.
Everyone can.

Most just aren't capable of doing so.

Like all the weaklings in RvB, EVEUNI l, BNI, NullSec, CODE., ...
A shitton of nonachievers who are nothing without the group.


Eh , i hate to break it to u , but u arent special or anything.Capable? Its a point and click game, Hello?

If smebody is running around more cocky than somebody else its 98 % Cause :
1.some millions more skills
2.some billion more ISK.
3.some more buddies
4.some x years of experience

that 2 % remaining is propably the "Capable".
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Warped Intentions
#132 - 2015-05-01 21:54:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I don't think people have a problem with WoW refugees, or cosmetic items. The problem is when those refugees demand that Eve change its nature to suit them.

In short nobody wants Eve to become gentrified.


Too late. Reddit has already moved in.
Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2015-05-01 21:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerhard Stringfellow
Yobu Khan wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
[quote=13kr1d1]You can't fly solo and achieve.

Sure you can.
Everyone can.

Most just aren't capable of doing so.

Like all the weaklings in RvB, EVEUNI l, BNI, NullSec, CODE., ...
A shitton of nonachievers who are nothing without the group.


Except that it does show capability to create fleet doctrines, manage somehow to keep a group together (no shortage of corps can't even do that), and make your goals interesting enough that people will continue to listen to you when they could quit at any time. If you don't like the fact that you're getting killed by larger numbers, it doesn't mean they aren't "skilled", it just means you don't understand a lesson that certainly applies in EvE and also in life.

My guess is if you don't like groups, you're probably "elite solo pve" in hi-sec, which is anything but that. EvE is a social game, and if you try to play it solo you're going to be an appetizing target for getting space jumped. And it's kind of silly to criticize it for people being overly social, considering what generally draws people to the game now are the reports of big battles and how active the playerbase is in creating content (null empires). Honestly, without the stories created by null-sec, CODE, and the other active organizations, the story for EvE isn't very compelling in inspiring the playerbase (compared to having grown up on WC2 and WC3 and finally having had an opportunity to explore it with an avatar in WoW) but regardless EvE is an infinitely better and more interesting game because it gives players so much freedom to affect the universe, but like anything there is a real limit to what one person can do, and the way people really become wealthy and powerful is by involving other people.

But trying to fall back on "they don't have skill because there are lots of them" only serves to illustrate how little you understand the game and the tasks that go with being anything other than a kitchen sink FC.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear

Herateis
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#134 - 2015-05-01 23:47:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Herateis
The Golden Serpent wrote:
I think WoW and Eve are both good games...totally different though. The worst part about WoW is the customer service sucks when you need help, it will take 1-3 days. Eve is like, 5 minutes!

The title is a little misleading cuz WoW hasn't gone away at all, people always unsub after the expansion gets a little old.

I am not playing WoW because their archaeology system is really frustrating, and their PvP requires too much time investment to really enjoy. I feel like I can put 1-2 hours into Factional Warfare in Eve every day and actually get somewhere. I don't know why I got into WoW's archaeology system, probably the "Boring" factor that made me feel relaxed. Eve does "boring" much better though. The name of the server describes it perfectly: Tranquility.

Then I joined faction warfare!Lol

Also I love the fact that there is time to roleplay during fights, it's not like that in WoW. Cuz you can talk to your enemy over comms while docked or in another part of the solar system. Theres no time for roleplaying in WoW or means to roleplay without losing precious time doing whatever grind you are on.

It's just a very different game from WoW, I don't see why they are being compared or why people think WoW people are coming to Eve. Eve is not the kind of game I see most WoW players going for.

High fantasy is so different from Sci fi.


I quit after the first expansion for those blood elves made all my hard work gear worthless. It is kind of fun to play WoW, but I'd definitely play it for free or a very low cost, rather than the high monthly sub + expansion prices. WoW vanilla was a decent game. the PvE aspect of threat management to have a group achieve something was fun. Other than that it lost its appeal when expansions made earlier content worthless to raid and turned purple level 60 stuff into trash compared to green level 62 stuff from draeni.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#135 - 2015-05-02 00:35:48 UTC
Quote:
Like all the weaklings in RvB, EVEUNI l, BNI, NullSec, CODE., ...
A shitton of nonachievers who are nothing without the group.
EVE is not the hero's journey. You aren't going to grind up XP and then blow away 100 n00bs solo.

(Does anyone else just scroll past Solecist's poems like badly written credits to the end of a film?)

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Gerhard Stringfellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2015-05-02 00:48:16 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Quote:
Like all the weaklings in RvB, EVEUNI l, BNI, NullSec, CODE., ...
A shitton of nonachievers who are nothing without the group.
EVE is not the hero's journey. You aren't going to grind up XP and then blow away 100 n00bs solo.

(Does anyone else just scroll past Solecist's poems like badly written credits to the end of a film?)


I may have skipped a few parts myself.

Another pubbie elite PvE pay to win mining carebear

Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#137 - 2015-05-02 01:21:47 UTC
SpaceyJoe Mentat wrote:
oint that WoW's niche is not their cash shop... and the cash shop is not why people play WoW.

WoW- What is a bigger and longer running arena/bg based PVP game?



I agree with Ma'Baker...

Now if WoW really was such an arean/battleground PvP game, why is the "hero's journey" the focus of each expansion?
(in hindsight, a six month sub was 5 months too long)
Omar Alharazaad
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#138 - 2015-05-02 06:31:55 UTC
Earth and Beyond refugee here, and still wondering where all the fish went.

I tried WoW for a couple months in the wayback and it just failed to hook me. Of course this was after I finally put EQ to rest and had been playing EVE for a while. It struck me as mindnumbingly simple and a tad more grindy than I was willing to endure... I'd put up with grind/timesink crap from EQ for enough years, so wasn't really keen on doing it again.

I do feel a limited form of sympathy for longtime players of WoW and similar games who come over to EVE. Most of them simply aren't going to survive the experience, much like a bunny or a squirrel that runs out in front of a car. It's sad to see the little critter go, but physics is a harsh mistress and they made a choice to do a dangerous thing. I think most of these critters don't grasp that the simple act of undocking is a dangerous thing, despite there being warning, and end up fairly well shocked when that thing happens.

It's the behavior after the event that matters. If they leave, that's fine. If they stay, cool. If they rant and rave and push for the game to change to prevent future tragedies such as their own... then we have a problem.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Solecist Project
#139 - 2015-05-02 06:35:35 UTC
Like a bunny or a squirrel ... LOL! :D

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Solecist Project
#140 - 2015-05-02 06:46:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Gerhard Stringfellow wrote:
Yobu Khan wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
[quote=13kr1d1]You can't fly solo and achieve.

Sure you can.
Everyone can.

Most just aren't capable of doing so.

Like all the weaklings in RvB, EVEUNI l, BNI, NullSec, CODE., ...
A shitton of nonachievers who are nothing without the group.


Except that it does show capability to create fleet doctrines, manage somehow to keep a group together (no shortage of corps can't even do that), and make your goals interesting enough that people will continue to listen to you when they could quit at any time. If you don't like the fact that you're getting killed by larger numbers, it doesn't mean they aren't "skilled", it just means you don't understand a lesson that certainly applies in EvE and also in life.

My guess is if you don't like groups, you're probably "elite solo pve" in hi-sec, which is anything but that. EvE is a social game, and if you try to play it solo you're going to be an appetizing target for getting space jumped. And it's kind of silly to criticize it for people being overly social, considering what generally draws people to the game now are the reports of big battles and how active the playerbase is in creating content (null empires). Honestly, without the stories created by null-sec, CODE, and the other active organizations, the story for EvE isn't very compelling in inspiring the playerbase (compared to having grown up on WC2 and WC3 and finally having had an opportunity to explore it with an avatar in WoW) but regardless EvE is an infinitely better and more interesting game because it gives players so much freedom to affect the universe, but like anything there is a real limit to what one person can do, and the way people really become wealthy and powerful is by involving other people.

But trying to fall back on "they don't have skill because there are lots of them" only serves to illustrate how little you understand the game and the tasks that go with being anything other than a kitchen sink FC.
So you agree that most people aren't capable.

They need others, FCs, to hold their hand.
F1 pushers aren't solo achievers either.

That's reality in all of these big groups.

Stopped at half, because you are ignorant of paragraphs.

Maybe learn reading and interpreting text properly.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia