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Construction with defict.
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Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2015-04-30 15:19:35 UTC
It is interesting how some people think. When you take your mining barge and mine ores and reprocess them into minerals people think it all is free. well you didn't pay isk for the ore you mined but that is not the point. People reprocess ores even when it would be more valuable to sell them as ores. That is evident with low skills.

But most flaved is still manufacturing. People build ships and other things for less than what they would get by selling those minerals that building let say a Bantam would take. I can ask for any of you readers a simple question. You have mined pile of ores and reprocessed them into minerals. Would you rather sell those minerals if you get 1b from them or would you make a ship from which you get 900m minus job installation fees?

Some people does nice deals with miners to buy their ores cheaper and i quess its fine but they also often fall into this same thing. this is real ingame example: not long ago... Bantam costs to make around 370k if you buy minerals from markets, but people manufacture these ships and sells them for 280k.

If you mined the ores and reprocessed them into minerals.. would you make the ship or would you just sell minerals?

Recent changes on Zydrine and Megacyte amounts needed to build also impacted to this... on battleship scale it is big impact. Market should fix that by itself in time (hopefully). This is building with defict...
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-04-30 15:26:39 UTC
Alice Doombringer wrote:
It is interesting how some people think. When you take your mining barge and mine ores and reprocess them into minerals people think it all is free. well you didn't pay isk for the ore you mined but that is not the point. People reprocess ores even when it would be more valuable to sell them as ores. That is evident with low skills.

But most flaved is still manufacturing. People build ships and other things for less than what they would get by selling those minerals that building let say a Bantam would take. I can ask for any of you readers a simple question. You have mined pile of ores and reprocessed them into minerals. Would you rather sell those minerals if you get 1b from them or would you make a ship from which you get 900m minus job installation fees?

Some people does nice deals with miners to buy their ores cheaper and i quess its fine but they also often fall into this same thing. this is real ingame example: not long ago... Bantam costs to make around 370k if you buy minerals from markets, but people manufacture these ships and sells them for 280k.

If you mined the ores and reprocessed them into minerals.. would you make the ship or would you just sell minerals?

Recent changes on Zydrine and Megacyte amounts needed to build also impacted to this... on battleship scale it is big impact. Market should fix that by itself in time (hopefully). This is building with defict...



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Kiddoomer
The Red Sequence
#3 - 2015-04-30 15:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiddoomer
There is people like me who mine, reprocessand then manufacture mostly for giggles, because I like to be part of all the process of building ships that I fly myself, a low (or not so low) profit is a plus.

Plus POS are even more cool to look than ever now, can't wait for the new small/medium structures coming Soon™.

P.S.: I mine from time to time in Providence for the megacyte/zydrine/nocxium and morphite.

In the name of Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen : “Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.”
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#4 - 2015-04-30 16:01:02 UTC
Alice Doombringer wrote:
It is interesting how some people think. When you take your mining barge and mine ores and reprocess them into minerals people think it all is free. well you didn't pay isk for the ore you mined but that is not the point. People reprocess ores even when it would be more valuable to sell them as ores. That is evident with low skills.

But most flaved is still manufacturing. People build ships and other things for less than what they would get by selling those minerals that building let say a Bantam would take. I can ask for any of you readers a simple question. You have mined pile of ores and reprocessed them into minerals. Would you rather sell those minerals if you get 1b from them or would you make a ship from which you get 900m minus job installation fees?

Some people does nice deals with miners to buy their ores cheaper and i quess its fine but they also often fall into this same thing. this is real ingame example: not long ago... Bantam costs to make around 370k if you buy minerals from markets, but people manufacture these ships and sells them for 280k.

If you mined the ores and reprocessed them into minerals.. would you make the ship or would you just sell minerals?

Recent changes on Zydrine and Megacyte amounts needed to build also impacted to this... on battleship scale it is big impact. Market should fix that by itself in time (hopefully). This is building with defict...
Most people don't build at a deficit, they've simply built at a lower cost. A lot of that right now is due to the price increase and the material changes. If you've bought ludicrous amounts of materials or pre-manufactured a lot of goods before the changes, you'll be able to outprice anyone else on the market for a good long time. This happened with the battleships changes. why compete with the market when you can still make a significant markup and price out any potential competition from even trying to compete? It's even simpler now that buying to reprocess isn't a thing.

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Alice Doombringer
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2015-04-30 16:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Doombringer
well.. the whole thing is.. why would you want to build a ship if you get more by selling the ores or minerals? especially you all who are seeking the profit in the end.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2015-04-30 21:10:02 UTC
Alice Doombringer wrote:
well.. the whole thing is.. why would you want to build a ship if you get more by selling the ores or minerals? especially you all who are seeking the profit in the end.

There is a group out there that don't have profit as a goal. They claim their goal is fun. There is no convincing them.

Keep in mind that what you see on the markets isn't entirely just this, rather there are literally YEARS worth of stockpiles thanks to previous game changes.

Example: I know a person that built something like 12,000 Procurers at 2m ISK, and they currently sell for 23m ISK. Luckily he managed to liquidate all his stock. You do the math. This is just one person too.
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
#7 - 2015-05-01 07:54:14 UTC
This has always been a downside of removing perfect reprocessing. Back in the days of perfect reprocessing, nothing would ever sell for more than a few % below materials since you would just reprocess and sell the minerals.
Cixi
#8 - 2015-05-02 11:09:59 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Alice Doombringer wrote:
well.. the whole thing is.. why would you want to build a ship if you get more by selling the ores or minerals? especially you all who are seeking the profit in the end.

There is a group out there that don't have profit as a goal. They claim their goal is fun. There is no convincing them.

Keep in mind that what you see on the markets isn't entirely just this, rather there are literally YEARS worth of stockpiles thanks to previous game changes.

Example: I know a person that built something like 12,000 Procurers at 2m ISK, and they currently sell for 23m ISK. Luckily he managed to liquidate all his stock. You do the math. This is just one person too.


Today building prices for the Procurer is 23.839.107 (Source : IPH). If he can build them for 2m ISK this mean he have stocks he doesn't account for, even if he really got minerals that cheap which he probably did, he would be better selling the minerals today at market price, it would be easier too.

The argument "stockpile" doesn't have any sense to me...
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-05-02 15:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Cixi wrote:
If he can build them for 2m ISK this means...


Not 'can'. 'Could'. Past tense.
As in, back 2 odd years ago, when the build price for Procurers (with minerals bought from Jita) was around 2 million, before the barge rebalance (Inferno?), this person built several thousand procurers.

A lot of people did this with the ship rebalancing. I only recently got rid of the last of the battlecruisers I built before they were rebalanced and their build costs increased, and I only had a small quantity.