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Lets talk about logi. The inquisitor lost its missile bonus and rots.
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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2015-04-26 01:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
In hangars.


Lets face it, no one takes logi frigs because they're so fragile and don't actually do a lot. They're moderately useless in small gang pvp because things are over too quickly for their small bonuses to have an effect, even if they arent primaried.

I've seen people prefer spider tanking dessie fleets, and you know something is wrong when a fleet doctrine doesn't involve having frigs to RAR.

What is wrong with logis, and to a lesser extent, T1 ewar frigs? They're fragile as hell and don't provide that much bonus. They're difficult to use anywhere except in open space where the ewar can at least hold 60km off with superior locking range to land their stuff while avoidng being locked back and shot.... until dessies with sebo (svipul) or cruisers with light drone spam arrives. You guys ever try to fly a crucifier recently? With such low PG, few lowslots for an amarr frig, and massive CPU, they cant really tank and waste a lot of CPU with a full TD build and 1 prop.

The logi frigs are even worse off, because not only are they fragile, but must be easily within range of all attacking enemies, while at the same time not producing much RR effect.

Logi, imo, should have the options, slots, fitting, whatever, to be tanky enough to survive in close combat, while producing an effect similar to an unbonused logi of the next class up.

Frig logi = unbonused cruiser RR.
cruiser logi = unbonused battleship RR.

And so on.

A cruiser at the moment can be a cheaper and longer surviving logi, even without bonuses, and with 2x more transfer rate to a frig logi.

This needs to be fixed unless the plan is to scrap those frigs altogether.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2015-04-26 03:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
13kr1d1 wrote:
In hangars.


Lets face it, no one takes logi frigs because they're so fragile and don't actually do a lot. They're moderately useless in small gang pvp because things are over too quickly for their small bonuses to have an effect, even if they arent primaried.

I've seen people prefer spider tanking dessie fleets, and you know something is wrong when a fleet doctrine doesn't involve having frigs to RAR.

What is wrong with logis, and to a lesser extent, T1 ewar frigs? They're fragile as hell and don't provide that much bonus. They're difficult to use anywhere except in open space where the ewar can at least hold 60km off with superior locking range to land their stuff while avoidng being locked back and shot.... until dessies with sebo (svipul) or cruisers with light drone spam arrives. You guys ever try to fly a crucifier recently? With such low PG, few lowslots for an amarr frig, and massive CPU, they cant really tank and waste a lot of CPU with a full TD build and 1 prop.

The logi frigs are even worse off, because not only are they fragile, but must be easily within range of all attacking enemies, while at the same time not producing much RR effect.

Logi, imo, should have the options, slots, fitting, whatever, to be tanky enough to survive in close combat, while producing an effect similar to an unbonused logi of the next class up.

Frig logi = unbonused cruiser RR.
cruiser logi = unbonused battleship RR.

And so on.

A cruiser at the moment can be a cheaper and longer surviving logi, even without bonuses, and with 2x more transfer rate to a frig logi.

This needs to be fixed unless the plan is to scrap those frigs altogether.

a crucifier? yeah i fly them, and sentinels, with buddies in pvp, its a GREAT ship for small gang fight, and jumping a cruiser or battleship with a gang of 2 or 3 frigates.

no, frigate versus frigate fleets are not the place for EWAR/logi frigs, but they are INVALUABLE when hunting larger ships, logi keeping frigs alive versus drones, and ewar frigs keeping larger guns from coming to bear on fleetmates (and in the case of one time where I was using a sentinel and we jumped a hyperion, keeping its reps from perma-running). and as for fitting the crucifier, yes, its a little squishy, but it shoudl be, i LOVE its midslots, honestly dont even use much in the lowslots.

so just saying, your example of the crucifier is bad, and logi/EWAR frigs do have a point, your problem is they dont do what YOU want them to do.

and again im gonna say this, LOGI SHOULD BE SQUISHY, saying "it shoudl have the tank to survive in close combat" is basiclaly saying "logi should be one of the harder things to kill on field", which emans all you want is mechanics to even more reinforce N+1 alpha-shot fleetplay
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2015-04-26 03:32:28 UTC
OP should look up Harpy Fleet.
Mario Putzo
#4 - 2015-04-26 03:35:19 UTC
Logi frigs are all kinds of sexy...I am actually not quite sure why people don't use them more to be honest.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#5 - 2015-04-26 03:38:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
OP should look up Harpy Fleet.


You should rename that to Happy Feet, please, I beg you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2015-04-26 04:33:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
OP should look up Harpy Fleet.


You should rename that to Happy Feet, please, I beg you.

yes, DO EEEEET
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2015-04-26 06:03:07 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
In hangars.


Lets face it, no one takes logi frigs because they're so fragile and don't actually do a lot. They're moderately useless in small gang pvp because things are over too quickly for their small bonuses to have an effect, even if they arent primaried.

I've seen people prefer spider tanking dessie fleets, and you know something is wrong when a fleet doctrine doesn't involve having frigs to RAR.

What is wrong with logis, and to a lesser extent, T1 ewar frigs? They're fragile as hell and don't provide that much bonus. They're difficult to use anywhere except in open space where the ewar can at least hold 60km off with superior locking range to land their stuff while avoidng being locked back and shot.... until dessies with sebo (svipul) or cruisers with light drone spam arrives. You guys ever try to fly a crucifier recently? With such low PG, few lowslots for an amarr frig, and massive CPU, they cant really tank and waste a lot of CPU with a full TD build and 1 prop.

The logi frigs are even worse off, because not only are they fragile, but must be easily within range of all attacking enemies, while at the same time not producing much RR effect.

Logi, imo, should have the options, slots, fitting, whatever, to be tanky enough to survive in close combat, while producing an effect similar to an unbonused logi of the next class up.

Frig logi = unbonused cruiser RR.
cruiser logi = unbonused battleship RR.

And so on.

A cruiser at the moment can be a cheaper and longer surviving logi, even without bonuses, and with 2x more transfer rate to a frig logi.

This needs to be fixed unless the plan is to scrap those frigs altogether.

a crucifier? yeah i fly them, and sentinels, with buddies in pvp, its a GREAT ship for small gang fight, and jumping a cruiser or battleship with a gang of 2 or 3 frigates.

no, frigate versus frigate fleets are not the place for EWAR/logi frigs, but they are INVALUABLE when hunting larger ships, logi keeping frigs alive versus drones, and ewar frigs keeping larger guns from coming to bear on fleetmates (and in the case of one time where I was using a sentinel and we jumped a hyperion, keeping its reps from perma-running). and as for fitting the crucifier, yes, its a little squishy, but it shoudl be, i LOVE its midslots, honestly dont even use much in the lowslots.

so just saying, your example of the crucifier is bad, and logi/EWAR frigs do have a point, your problem is they dont do what YOU want them to do.

and again im gonna say this, LOGI SHOULD BE SQUISHY, saying "it shoudl have the tank to survive in close combat" is basiclaly saying "logi should be one of the harder things to kill on field", which emans all you want is mechanics to even more reinforce N+1 alpha-shot fleetplay


If you're expecting to be using an ewar frig to deal with larger size ships, why not just bring the ewar cruiser?
A logi frig has no DPS, the only thing it contributes is remote rep. You have N-1 attack frigs on the field if you put one out there, which means you've lost dps, and then logi gets primaried, dying without doing any repping, therefore being useless.

The lack of logi tank is what encourages N+1 alpha shots.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#8 - 2015-04-26 06:06:15 UTC
Again, Harpy fleet shows you are wrong.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#9 - 2015-04-26 06:42:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
The difference between the Burst/Bantam (which also is very underused) and the Navitas/Inquistor is that the armor reps land at the end of the cycle and not at the beginning. The end of the cycle, however, is quite dangerous for frigs which do not always have the buffer to survive for a couple more seconds after the broadcast. It's an inherent complicator of armor repairs and damage potential on an Inquisitor/Navitas won't change that; instead, it will just make the life of these pilots even harder as they have to concentrate on repping and dealing damage.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2015-04-26 06:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
13kr1d1 wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
In hangars.


Lets face it, no one takes logi frigs because they're so fragile and don't actually do a lot. They're moderately useless in small gang pvp because things are over too quickly for their small bonuses to have an effect, even if they arent primaried.

I've seen people prefer spider tanking dessie fleets, and you know something is wrong when a fleet doctrine doesn't involve having frigs to RAR.

What is wrong with logis, and to a lesser extent, T1 ewar frigs? They're fragile as hell and don't provide that much bonus. They're difficult to use anywhere except in open space where the ewar can at least hold 60km off with superior locking range to land their stuff while avoidng being locked back and shot.... until dessies with sebo (svipul) or cruisers with light drone spam arrives. You guys ever try to fly a crucifier recently? With such low PG, few lowslots for an amarr frig, and massive CPU, they cant really tank and waste a lot of CPU with a full TD build and 1 prop.

The logi frigs are even worse off, because not only are they fragile, but must be easily within range of all attacking enemies, while at the same time not producing much RR effect.

Logi, imo, should have the options, slots, fitting, whatever, to be tanky enough to survive in close combat, while producing an effect similar to an unbonused logi of the next class up.

Frig logi = unbonused cruiser RR.
cruiser logi = unbonused battleship RR.

And so on.

A cruiser at the moment can be a cheaper and longer surviving logi, even without bonuses, and with 2x more transfer rate to a frig logi.

This needs to be fixed unless the plan is to scrap those frigs altogether.

a crucifier? yeah i fly them, and sentinels, with buddies in pvp, its a GREAT ship for small gang fight, and jumping a cruiser or battleship with a gang of 2 or 3 frigates.

no, frigate versus frigate fleets are not the place for EWAR/logi frigs, but they are INVALUABLE when hunting larger ships, logi keeping frigs alive versus drones, and ewar frigs keeping larger guns from coming to bear on fleetmates (and in the case of one time where I was using a sentinel and we jumped a hyperion, keeping its reps from perma-running). and as for fitting the crucifier, yes, its a little squishy, but it shoudl be, i LOVE its midslots, honestly dont even use much in the lowslots.

so just saying, your example of the crucifier is bad, and logi/EWAR frigs do have a point, your problem is they dont do what YOU want them to do.

and again im gonna say this, LOGI SHOULD BE SQUISHY, saying "it shoudl have the tank to survive in close combat" is basiclaly saying "logi should be one of the harder things to kill on field", which emans all you want is mechanics to even more reinforce N+1 alpha-shot fleetplay


If you're expecting to be using an ewar frig to deal with larger size ships, why not just bring the ewar cruiser?
A logi frig has no DPS, the only thing it contributes is remote rep. You have N-1 attack frigs on the field if you put one out there, which means you've lost dps, and then logi gets primaried, dying without doing any repping, therefore being useless.

The lack of logi tank is what encourages N+1 alpha shots.

on the crucifier? i have drones for damage

as for bringing the cruiser, its slower and easier to hit when engageing aforementioned larger targets

as for n-1 atackers, guess what? its better to take a little longer to kill something effectively, than to go in with no force multiplier and get wiped because of 1 bad move, my crucifier's tracking disruptors and neuts prevent the enemy from outrepping our DPS, and prevents his turrets from getting a lucky blow (which with skilled battleship pilots IS possible, hence why we switched to havign an EWAR frig). Occasionally we even brought a logi frig, why? because when fighting cruisers, or the occasional experienced battleship pilot, even tracking disruptors werent 100% in removing his ability to manage transversal to land the occasional glancing blow.

So again, logi frigs and ewar are PERFECT force multipliers for small gangs in that they stack TERRIBLY in fleets of 2 similar compositions, but work WONDERFULLY when fighting a single or group of larger enemies. this prevents the frig fleet from becoming a simple n+1 blobfest every time.


and YES, if we REALLY wanted to, we might be slightly more efficient against opposing frigates swapping to all interceptors or something, but we fly what we like, and look for targets and opponents suited for the composition we choose to fly.
Arla Sarain
#11 - 2015-04-26 09:34:47 UTC
Whatever T1 logi frig dies to alpha, any other T1 frig will likely die to alpha, excluding maybe a 400mm Punisher and a full resist Merlin.


Even if your T1 frig logis survived alone as a the only logi in fleet, they wouldn't matter because they have no cap to rep for longer than 30s.

Your fault is that you think you can get away with N-1, the latter being the logi.

Get 2-3 of them and it's a whole different story.
Evidence to it - FW.

If they go up against cruisers of any kind, they will likely lose. As will a majority of other frigs going against cruisers, unless they are AFs. Hence the issue is not that T1 logi suck. Its that you are pitting ship classes that are only 2 sizes apart. Frigs in general are not a serious match against cruisers unless outnumbering greatly. And even then you will lose a lot of frigs.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#12 - 2015-04-26 13:05:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Again, Happy Feet shows you are wrong.


Fixed to show possible alternative reality.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2015-04-26 20:34:59 UTC
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Logistics_Ships_101

Quote:
These frigates have limited logisitics power and weak tank so in PvP their use is limited to specialised roles such as Faction warfare in ship size restricted complexes. For Logi 101 practical exercises these are used to demonstrate logisitic modules and energy transfer. In Eve Uni fleets the T1 Logi cruiser is preferred.


There's clearly a reason for this.

Mass logi spider tank rep shouldn't be a requirement for it to work or fail.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2015-04-27 04:50:18 UTC
The one thing I find stupid about logi cruisers is the perpetual motion machine of 200% cap sent. Its pretty dumb, and you should only be able to transfer 50-80% of the cap that it requires to use the cap emission module, but give log cruisers more cap regen. All the Logis, like frig logi, cruiser logi, should have bad max cap but really high cap regen, so that they can't run mass modules of rep or cap, but can run one and use the two turret slots for weapons like they're supposed to.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#15 - 2015-04-27 05:42:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
13kr1d1 wrote:
The one thing I find stupid about logi cruisers is the perpetual motion machine of 200% cap sent. Its pretty dumb, and you should only be able to transfer 50-80% of the cap that it requires to use the cap emission module, but give log cruisers more cap regen. All the Logis, like frig logi, cruiser logi, should have bad max cap but really high cap regen, so that they can't run mass modules of rep or cap, but can run one and use the two turret slots for weapons like they're supposed to.

At which point, All the logi cruisers are now identical.
Also, 'supposed to', says who?

And you want to make Amarr Logi then run lasers which are cap hogs without cap bonuses..... Oh wait, everyone will have to fit AC's to avoid cap issues.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2015-04-27 06:18:15 UTC
since when are Logistics ships supposed to run weapons? This is like suggesting that a Brutix is supposed to use Remote Repair modules.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-04-27 11:30:18 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
since when are Logistics ships supposed to run weapons? This is like suggesting that a Brutix is supposed to use Remote Repair modules.

Wait, its not? No wonder my ganks keep failing.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-04-27 13:04:01 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
The one thing I find stupid about logi cruisers is the perpetual motion machine of 200% cap sent. Its pretty dumb, and you should only be able to transfer 50-80% of the cap that it requires to use the cap emission module, but give log cruisers more cap regen. All the Logis, like frig logi, cruiser logi, should have bad max cap but really high cap regen, so that they can't run mass modules of rep or cap, but can run one and use the two turret slots for weapons like they're supposed to.

At which point, All the logi cruisers are now identical.
Also, 'supposed to', says who?

And you want to make Amarr Logi then run lasers which are cap hogs without cap bonuses..... Oh wait, everyone will have to fit AC's to avoid cap issues.


There is also the big can of worm where target management will be the biggest pain in the ass ever because you now have to lock blues and red and direct different modules at them. Could not wait for all the whines thrown at logi because we now have to handle all a DPS pilots has to while also keeping their sorry ass safe...

Also, frig logi are hilarious in PLEX when your DPS comp don't rely too much on it's own speed.
Captain Cean
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2015-04-28 08:29:39 UTC
OP have no glue of Frigatte Warfare
Logi Frigatte are very strong
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#20 - 2015-04-28 09:11:33 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
since when are Logistics ships supposed to run weapons? This is like suggesting that a Brutix is supposed to use Remote Repair modules.

Confirming that logi seem absolutely perfectly designed for 4/2 on the basi/guardi and 4/0 on scimi/oni due to those being exceedingly simple, cookie cutter fits that just work.

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Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
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