These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Raven Navy Issue vs Scorpion Navi Issue vs Rattlesnake | Alternatives?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#61 - 2015-04-26 03:45:09 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:


Did you read the stuff above? Of all bs the rattler is the easiest to train into, its harder to maximize but to reach 750+ dps easily you need to spend like a week of training as its main damage comes from its role bonus.


Did you read what I said?

No matter how you try to argue this the rattle had two weapon systems you need to train and maintain. When you are learning a ship class you want the first steps to be as easy as you can make it and the rattle is not the best option for this. The raven only has the one weapon system it needs to worry about and is so easy to get into it has been to go to mission boat for the last decade.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#62 - 2015-04-26 03:54:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
No matter how you try to argue this the rattle had two weapon systems you need to train and maintain. When you are learning a ship class you want the first steps to be as easy as you can make it and the rattle is not the best option for this. The raven only has the one weapon system it needs to worry about and is so easy to get into it has been to go to mission boat for the last decade.

I think the Rattlesnake is potentially more forgiving for newer players.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2015-04-26 04:08:06 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

I think the Rattlesnake is potentially more forgiving for newer players.


How?

Two weapon systems to train for so it takes twice as long to train.

Two lines of battleship are required to be trained.

You have two weapons to use so you have twice as much work in that area.

Drones require you to look after them and the rattle is not bonuses for light/med drones.

The raven is much easier to get into, cheaper, easier to use and fit. The rattle is something to aim for after you have been in the raven not before.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#64 - 2015-04-26 04:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
baltec1 wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

I think the Rattlesnake is potentially more forgiving for newer players.


How?

Two weapon systems to train for so it takes twice as long to train.

Two lines of battleship are required to be trained.

You have two weapons to use so you have twice as much work in that area.

Drones require you to look after them and the rattle is not bonuses for light/med drones.

The raven is much easier to get into, cheaper, easier to use and fit. The rattle is something to aim for after you have been in the raven not before.



Because even at level 3 in each BS line, each weapon system type it will still out damage and with better application a Raven.

You can out damage a fully level V skilled Raven pilot in a Rattle piloted by a player with level 4 skills. It is just that simple. Again, Raven is not a good choice for level 3, you get all the draw backs of using a BS in a level 3 without the benefit of more dps. Rattle is also a ship that the OP can continue to skill and get better and better, where a Raven the pilot has to change weapon skills to get better and get a new hull.

What you are proposing is the OP get a Raven and skill for heavy missiles, then after "mastering" that he start skilling for cruise or torp, skill for Rattle (which means drones) or a Golem (very long skill train) and then sell his hull for upgrade.

What the rattle offers is to train for heavies and drones (which he already has) and use a ship that today gets him more DPS, more tank and better application of damage. Then tomorrow when he is level V his Rattle is only that much more amplified.

You are asking him to waste time and skills on something he wont fly tomorrow.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2015-04-26 04:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Because even at level 3 in each BS line, each weapon system type it will still out damage and with better application a Raven.

You can out damage a fully level V skilled Raven pilot in a Rattle piloted by a player with level 4 skills. It is just that simple. Again, Raven is not a good choice for level 3, you get all the draw backs of using a BS in a level 3 without the benefit of more dps. Rattle is also a ship that the OP can continue to skill and get better and better, where a Raven the pilot has to change weapon skills to get better and get a new hull.

What you are proposing is the OP get a Raven and skill for heavy missiles, then after "mastering" that he start skilling for cruise or torp, skill for Rattle (which means drones) or a Golem (very long skill train) and then sell his hull for upgrade.

What the rattle offers is to train for heavies and drones (which he already has) and use a ship that today gets him more DPS, more tank and better application of damage. Then tomorrow when he is level V his Rattle is only that much more amplified.

You are asking him to waste time and skills on something he wont fly tomorrow.


Remind me, what battleship skill is required for the raven and the rattle?

Also, tell us what weapon system both ships get bonuses to?

Zero time is wasted here, the skills you get for the raven are the very same skills you need for the rattle the only difference is it takes twice as long to get the skills for the rattle and the hull alone costs twice as much as a fully fitted raven. Also remember, I put a lot of time into a level 3 raven on a new pilot so I know exactly what it can do. The rattle was also tested and it is slower simply because of the way drones work. DPS isn't everything here.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#66 - 2015-04-26 04:33:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Because even at level 3 in each BS line, each weapon system type it will still out damage and with better application a Raven.

You can out damage a fully level V skilled Raven pilot in a Rattle piloted by a player with level 4 skills. It is just that simple. Again, Raven is not a good choice for level 3, you get all the draw backs of using a BS in a level 3 without the benefit of more dps. Rattle is also a ship that the OP can continue to skill and get better and better, where a Raven the pilot has to change weapon skills to get better and get a new hull.

What you are proposing is the OP get a Raven and skill for heavy missiles, then after "mastering" that he start skilling for cruise or torp, skill for Rattle (which means drones) or a Golem (very long skill train) and then sell his hull for upgrade.

What the rattle offers is to train for heavies and drones (which he already has) and use a ship that today gets him more DPS, more tank and better application of damage. Then tomorrow when he is level V his Rattle is only that much more amplified.

You are asking him to waste time and skills on something he wont fly tomorrow.


Remind me, what battleship skill is required for the raven and the rattle?

Also, tell us what weapon system both ships get bonuses to?

Zero time is wasted here, the skills you get for the raven are the very same skills you need for the rattle. Also remember, I put a lot of time into a level 3 raven on a new pilot so I know exactly what it can do. The rattle was also tested and it is slower simply because of the way drones work. DPS isn't everything here.


You want the OP to train heavy missiles and fly a Raven then switch to a Golem with Cruise.

I want the OP to max his skills to fly a Rattle while actually flying a Rattle all the while a better choice both now and in the future for him.

Your testing of the Ishtar vs Mach has little to do with a Rattle vs Raven.

I don't see why you continue to argue this

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2015-04-26 04:36:14 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


You want the OP to train heavy missiles and fly a Raven then switch to a Golem with Cruise.


I have never mentioned the golem. What the OP does after learning the basics with the raven is up to him.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I want the OP to max his skills to fly a Rattle while actually flying a Rattle all the while a better choice both now and in the future for him.


And I want the OP to learn the basics in an easy to get into ship as possible as quickly as possible for as little isk as needed.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

I don't see why you continue to argue this


Because you are giving poor advice.
Aeon Ecko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-04-26 04:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeon Ecko
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Aeon Ecko wrote:
Megathron.

I'm not re-quoting this fit. It
makes my eyes bleed...


No one one told you too in the first place. The OP was asking. That fit is outdated been updated anyway its already been answered.
Your comment is mind boggling.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2015-04-26 05:06:27 UTC
Aeon Ecko wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Aeon Ecko wrote:
Megathron.

I'm not re-quoting this fit. It
makes my eyes bleed...


No one one told you too in the first place. The OP was asking. That fit is outdated been updated anyway its already been answered.
Your comment is mind boggling.


Its a poor fit.
Aeon Ecko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-04-26 05:12:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aeon Ecko wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Aeon Ecko wrote:
Megathron.

I'm not re-quoting this fit. It
makes my eyes bleed...


No one one told you too in the first place. The OP was asking. That fit is outdated been updated anyway its already been answered.
Your comment is mind boggling.


Its a poor fit.


Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out. I did ask people seem to over look it. If it helps the man than help. I am just a price performance suggestion but if you know something tell OP. His thread not mines
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2015-04-26 05:23:00 UTC
Aeon Ecko wrote:

Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out.


Blasters lack the range to be effective lvl 4 mission runners unless you have speed and TE/Computers which your ship doesn't. The weapon systems in question reduce your resists to zero and even with the best willpower a ship with zero resists and no rep is going to die even in level 3s. The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#72 - 2015-04-26 05:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
baltec1 wrote:
How?

I didn't say it was necessarily better - I just said it was more forgiving. You can have mediocre drone and missile skills and it will still out-DPS a Raven. It has a heavier tank, higher resistances (even Caldari Battleship-III plugs the EM hole with 15%) and a passive shield recharge.

baltec1 wrote:
The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless.

The 4th typically yields 4.5-5% additional DPS, so I wouldn't exactly call it pointless.

baltec1 wrote:
Blasters lack the range to be effective lvl 4 mission runners unless you have speed and TE/Computers which your ship doesn't. The weapon systems in question reduce your resists to zero and even with the best willpower a ship with zero resists and no rep is going to die even in level 3s. The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless.

I would generally say that's correct. There are a few L4 missions ("The Damsel", "Stop the Thief") where blasters will excel, but these would be the exception rather than the rule.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2015-04-26 05:29:58 UTC
Aeon Ecko wrote:


Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out. I did ask people seem to over look it. If it helps the man than help. I am just a price performance suggestion but if you know something tell OP. His thread not mines


You've been asked about this fit and left my question without answer. Why would i counter fit anyfhing if your mega got nothing near to asked SNI/CNR or Rattler?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Aeon Ecko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2015-04-26 05:34:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aeon Ecko wrote:

Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out.


Blasters lack the range to be effective lvl 4 mission runners unless you have speed and TE/Computers which your ship doesn't. The weapon systems in question reduce your resists to zero and even with the best willpower a ship with zero resists and no rep is going to die even in level 3s. The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless.



I respect that that is fair points. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for info will pass it along. Need more post like this. I did try put a few resists on but they never show correct not sure if bug or what. I figured too many damage mods before but I was not sure how much power OP needed but I could easy on them in a heart beat for repair, nano, or resist mod and go micro but I don't know if he will get scrambled or something.
Aeon Ecko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-04-26 05:35:36 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Aeon Ecko wrote:


Never said it was the best in the game but I did ask for a counter fit to help out. I did ask people seem to over look it. If it helps the man than help. I am just a price performance suggestion but if you know something tell OP. His thread not mines


You've been asked about this fit and left my question without answer. Why would i counter fit anyfhing if your mega got nothing near to asked SNI/CNR or Rattler?



No I did not and you said you have nothing more to add so.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2015-04-26 05:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Aeon Ecko wrote:


I respect that that is fair points. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for info will pass it along. Need more post like this. I did try put a few resists on but they never show correct not sure if bug or what. I figured too many damage mods before but I was not sure how much power OP needed but I could easy on them in a heart beat for repair, nano, or resist mod and go micro but I don't know if he will get scrambled or something.


Those guns reduce resists to 0 no matter what you fit. Damage mod wise anything over 3 suffers from diminishing returns to the point where they add very little. The last 4 damage mods on your ship add no damage at all, they are dead weight. Rats don't scramble.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2015-04-26 05:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
How?

I didn't say it was necessarily better - I just said it was more forgiving. You can have mediocre drone and missile skills and it will still out-DPS a Raven. It has a heavier tank, higher resistances (even Caldari Battleship-III plugs the EM hole with 15%) and a passive shield recharge.

baltec1 wrote:
The lowslots have way way too many damage mods, past three they become pointless.

The 4th typically yields 4.5-5% additional DPS, so I wouldn't exactly call it pointless.



I like thread like that where OP has already run away and probably flying one of those ships which we are discusding here.

The main thing is still the same - a newbe asking about fancy expensive ship which is he honestly thinks would help him to run missions much more easier than any t1 hulls.

The problem is also the same no matter what ship it is he still be doing poor perfomance due to lack of skills. So it is very stright forward way here vs spending extra isk on faction ships and mods which is simply feed those alod km's where newbe got full fit of faction mods and got owned by pirates. And all the tears and drama are followed.

So baltec is giving a very simple advise - not to spend unwillingly any extra isk and focus on learning abc's with standard raven. Though this would prevent newbe from unnecessary attention from gankers and even if he lost the ship that won't be that painfull.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Aeon Ecko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2015-04-26 05:44:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aeon Ecko wrote:


I respect that that is fair points. You learn something new everyday. Thanks for info will pass it along. Need more post like this. I did try put a few resists on but they never show correct not sure if bug or what. I figured too many damage mods before but I was not sure how much power OP needed but I could easy on them in a heart beat for repair, nano, or resist mod and go micro but I don't know if he will get scrambled or something.


Those guns reduce resists to 0 no matter what you fit. Damage mod wise anything over 3 suffers from diminishing returns to the point where they add very little. The last 4 damage mods on your ship add no damage at all, they are dead weight. Rats don't scramble.


Good info. Thank. Need get some of my people on this
Good look. Community could benefit from this and OP. Good look.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2015-04-26 05:51:00 UTC
Aeon Ecko wrote:


No I did not and you said you have nothing more to add so.


Reading your comments i'm really concerned that you are aware of how to run missions and what ship is good for that.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2015-04-26 05:58:08 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

The 4th typically yields 4.5-5% additional DPS, so I wouldn't exactly call it pointless.


I'd only fit it if you didn't have anything else. A TE will add more DPS than a Mag stab.

baltec1 wrote:

I would generally say that's correct. There are a few L4 missions ("The Damsel", "Stop the Thief") where blasters will excel, but these would be the exception rather than the rule.


Kronos can pull it off. If you can hit 50km with null then you can get away with it in a normal mega but you need max skills to get away with it.