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Command ship design
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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#81 - 2015-02-09 11:10:29 UTC
You are mixing up Armored Warfare, which you indeed need to inject the CS skill but which is not a link skill as it is only the prerequisite to train the link specialization, with Armored Warfare Specialist, which is the skill for the links/boost modules and which you do not need to train to fly an Absolution or to inject the Command Ship skill. Armored Warfare and Armored Warfare Specialist are 2 different skills, the first only allows you to give your fleet skill based bonuses, the second allows you to use specific modules and is not a prerequisite for ships. Please try remember that.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-02-09 19:14:47 UTC
^ Correct.

You can have a command ship with bad links. The ship will at minimum benefit from Battlecruisers V and Warfare Link Specialist IV, but the primary link skills only need be at I.

Perhaps a better point is why do we have to have so many leadership skills trained to V just to fly a tech 2 battlecruiser? Some of us want to fly it for combat, without any links installed.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Caligula Gaius Claudian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2015-02-09 20:55:41 UTC
This was exactly my point and the guy above and others complaining about that all those are nessecsary pre-req.

Now tell me why should i train all those in front if i only want to prw pew in abso?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2015-02-09 21:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
As someone who injected and trained the Command Ships skill back before the squad boost skills were prerequisites, I can honestly say I do not care.

However the squad boost skills are very useful when you are in a fleet. A 10% bonus to armor hp, shield hp, targeting speed, targeting range, and agility is nothing to sneeze at. These are skills that everyone should train eventually. The only reason to train them before most other things is if you want to specialize in fleet boosting. Since this is what Command Ships are designed to do the prerequisites make perfect sense.

The only prerequisite that isn't of any use if you do not intend to run links is Warfare Link Specialist IV, which as others have pointed out, isn't a particularly long train. And since you are in a ship with two utility highs and literally less than 2 hours from being able to to put some bonused links in said utility highs even Warfare Link Specialist IV kinda makes sense.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-02-09 21:29:57 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
However the squad boost skills are very useful when you are in a fleet. A 10% bonus to armor hp, shield hp, targeting speed, targeting range, and agility is nothing to sneeze at. These are skills that everyone should train eventually.

I've had these trained to 5 for a while now and still haven't got a chance to fly as squad leader. Some fleets just seem to have decided beforehand who they want in those slots, and many folks never really get the chance to use those skills. They come in handy for me when I'm fleeted with a couple friends, but so far not once when I have gone out with my alliance or any other large fleet.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#86 - 2015-02-09 21:31:53 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
^ Correct.

You can have a command ship with bad links. The ship will at minimum benefit from Battlecruisers V and Warfare Link Specialist IV, but the primary link skills only need be at I.

Perhaps a better point is why do we have to have so many leadership skills trained to V just to fly a tech 2 battlecruiser? Some of us want to fly it for combat, without any links installed.

Because they are the relevant skills for the primary role of the ship.
As mentioned pages ago in this thread, every T2 Ship & Caps have specific fits which won't use all the pre-reqs. WH Caps needing to train Jump Skills for instance is one of the most obvious ones.
So, HTFU and deal with it. You would have to train something for that time anyway, unless you are thinking CCP would let them use identical pre-reqs to HAC's.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#87 - 2015-02-09 21:36:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:
This was exactly my point and the guy above and others complaining about that all those are nessecsary pre-req.

Now tell me why should i train all those in front if i only want to prw pew in abso?

Because you want to Pew Pew in a ship whose primary role is providing links/bonus to a fleet? What you want to do with that ship is not what this ship's intended role is. What you want to do with that ship is not relevant to the decision what skills fit a specific ship role. So, do you want to imply that the skills required to fly a bonus providing ship are too suitable for the ship and that other ships' prerequisites are out of place? I mean, I could certainly agree on that Logis could need some more logistic focused prerequisites. Or Ewar Ships ewar specific prerequs instead of that generic crap.

--

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I've had these trained to 5 for a while now and still haven't got a chance to fly as squad leader. Some fleets just seem to have decided beforehand who they want in those slots, and many folks never really get the chance to use those skills. They come in handy for me when I'm fleeted with a couple friends, but so far not once when I have gone out with my alliance or any other large fleet.

That is because CS with the T2 link modules are immensely more powerful than your basic skill-based bonuses. Wasting a Wing Commander slot on you is not going to help the fleet. You are a perfect pilot for the squad commander position, however. And in small fleets that you lead, you can be the bonus provider.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-02-09 22:55:16 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You are a perfect pilot for the squad commander position, however.

Yet I never get the slot. Something needs fixed here and I don't know what it is, but what I do know is this: my leadership skills are going to waste.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Caligula Gaius Claudian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2015-02-09 22:58:21 UTC
Do you fly a booster absolution, no cause you pick damnation over absolution all the time. Personally consider absolution an obsolete ship for that role. Same with other factions.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#90 - 2015-02-10 07:19:44 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
You are a perfect pilot for the squad commander position, however.

Yet I never get the slot. Something needs fixed here and I don't know what it is, but what I do know is this: my leadership skills are going to waste.

You need to be quicker to join fleets. Blink It's a first come, first serve market. And you need to pay attention to when current squad commanders get killed and vacancies emerge.

--

Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:
Do you fly a booster absolution, no cause you pick damnation over absolution all the time. Personally consider absolution an obsolete ship for that role. Same with other factions.

Yet it's role is still a booster. And yet you or anyone else have not made any suggestions on alternative skills to train that keep the length of the current skill training time. So what is your point? Make a feasible suggestion, that's the point of this thread, this forum after all. "I want just because!" is going to bring neither this forum forward nor appropriate change to the game.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#91 - 2015-02-10 07:31:59 UTC
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:
This was exactly my point and the guy above and others complaining about that all those are nessecsary pre-req.

Now tell me why should i train all those in front if i only want to prw pew in abso?


why do i need graviton physics to fly a dictor or a hic? or sci V for thermodynamics those skills provides 0 benefits to me as a combat pilot

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2015-02-10 07:52:35 UTC
That's a funny thread
People who don't train for cs vs. who already did.

But the author of this thread did't get the proper answer, most of them were - because you should and that's it.

Time to turn this page.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#93 - 2015-02-10 08:24:17 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why do i need graviton physics to fly a dictor or a hic? or sci V for thermodynamics those skills provides 0 benefits to me as a combat pilot

Basic science understanding of highly scientific modules and mechanics.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2015-02-11 00:22:18 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why do i need graviton physics to fly a dictor or a hic? or sci V for thermodynamics those skills provides 0 benefits to me as a combat pilot

Basic science understanding of highly scientific modules and mechanics.

It's like needing a degree in particle physics to be able to flip the on switch at a particle accelerator, or needing to be an electrician to turn your home lights on.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#95 - 2015-02-11 02:52:14 UTC
Except you know, it's not. It's like needing a degree in nuclear physics to run a nuclear reactor in all it's complexity. Our modules are not simply on/off switches. The fact they are presented to us as that simple on/off is because we have done all the training required to do all the load balancing, tuning, aiming, calculations, preparations and everything else required before the module can be onlined for use.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#96 - 2015-02-11 03:27:46 UTC
Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:
It was a good example with Guardian, why the hell there are no pre-required skills for remote rep and energy transfer?

logic behind the logic

This was several pages back and I am surprised that no one has commented on it.

Ships have pre-reqs to fly them and to support the role they play, the fittings they use to fulfill that role have their own pre-reqs. here is just one example.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Large_'Solace'_Remote_Armor_Repairer
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#97 - 2015-02-11 03:34:47 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why do i need graviton physics to fly a dictor or a hic? or sci V for thermodynamics those skills provides 0 benefits to me as a combat pilot

Basic science understanding of highly scientific modules and mechanics.

It's like needing a degree in particle physics to be able to flip the on switch at a particle accelerator, or needing to be an electrician to turn your home lights on.

I have a feeling most of the people hitting the on switches for particle accelerators have a degree is something related... just saying.

Caligula Gaius Claudian wrote:
It was a good example with Guardian, why the hell there are no pre-required skills for remote rep and energy transfer?

logic behind the logic


You will need the skills for either capacitor or armor transfers to use the ship effectively anyway, why bother putting it in the requirements?

Tempest for example doesn't need any gunnery, why would Guardian need the remote repping abilities?

But they do need lock range and lock speed, which are very important stats for a ship designed to get reps on a target as fast as possible from as far away from the danger as possible. Makes sense to me.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#98 - 2015-02-11 06:23:20 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why do i need graviton physics to fly a dictor or a hic? or sci V for thermodynamics those skills provides 0 benefits to me as a combat pilot

Basic science understanding of highly scientific modules and mechanics.

It's like needing a degree in particle physics to be able to flip the on switch at a particle accelerator, or needing to be an electrician to turn your home lights on.


You're not just flipping a switch you are controlling every nuance of that technology with your mind so i think at the very lest you may need some understanding of how it works

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Dmitry Kuvora
Sovetsky Soyuz
#99 - 2015-04-22 02:52:07 UTC
60 days of useless skills training when every fleet have alts for links, because they working offgrid
no thanks...
i prefer to learn something else until they fix requirements for commands