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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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What if it was harder to call primaries?

Author
davet517
Raata Invicti
#1 - 2015-04-20 17:54:27 UTC
For about 10 years now, the core skill / mechanic in Eve fleet fights has been the ability to listen to a target caller and focus fire. He who degrades the enemy's DPS to a tankable level first wins. If you have your overview set up and sorted like your FC, picking out the target that he calls becomes trivial. If you're watching a broadcast window, it's even easier.

What if it was harder? If players were removed from overview, there was no target broadcast window, and you had to aquire targets in space, would it throw the balance away from numbers and back toward skill?

What if you had to fly around in space in small formations of tackle, DPS, and logi, working together killing targets as you got them tackled, because trying to coordinate 100s of players to focus fire would be too hard, chaotic, and confusing, but in smaller groups, tacklers could call their tackle and DPS could move in for the kill? Might it give a smaller but more skillful fleet a better chance against large numbers of players with average or worse skill?

This is a wild idea. Yeah, there are a hundred reasons why it won't work. How would you improve upon it so that it would work?
Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2015-04-20 18:17:29 UTC
No, that's not skill, it's fighting the UI to do what you want to do.

Eve is a PvP game, it should never be a Player vs UI game.

The game you're describing here is not Eve Online. It might be a fun game but it's not Eve.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#3 - 2015-04-20 18:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Xe'Cara'eos
it might be interesting, but ultimately, it wouldn't be good for EVE (I don't think)

EDIT:

what if locking non-fleet targets through the broadcast window took an extra 2s for the data transmission, and in-fleet targets an extra 1s?

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

Juan Mileghere
Sea World
#4 - 2015-04-20 18:47:30 UTC
davet517 wrote:
For about 10 years now, the core skill / mechanic in Eve fleet fights has been the ability to listen to a target caller and focus fire. He who degrades the enemy's DPS to a tankable level first wins. If you have your overview set up and sorted like your FC, picking out the target that he calls becomes trivial. If you're watching a broadcast window, it's even easier.

What if it was harder? If players were removed from overview, there was no target broadcast window, and you had to aquire targets in space, would it throw the balance away from numbers and back toward skill?

What if you had to fly around in space in small formations of tackle, DPS, and logi, working together killing targets as you got them tackled, because trying to coordinate 100s of players to focus fire would be too hard, chaotic, and confusing, but in smaller groups, tacklers could call their tackle and DPS could move in for the kill? Might it give a smaller but more skillful fleet a better chance against large numbers of players with average or worse skill?

This is a wild idea. Yeah, there are a hundred reasons why it won't work. How would you improve upon it so that it would work?

Not implement it, thats how I would improve it...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5 - 2015-04-20 19:21:58 UTC
How about we implement DPS stacking penalties instead..... Lets call it 'warp field hardening'. So there is no point to having much more than a squad of ships target a single target. Obviously we then implement logi stacking penalties also.

But the main aim of the game would be to have individual squad leaders then having to target call rather than the FC calling for 250 people. Then the FC gets on with grand strategy, while wing commanders handle positioning of individual wings.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2015-04-20 19:26:45 UTC
davet517 wrote:
How would you improve upon it so that it would work?



I wouldn't, it's inherently unworkable. It makes it impossible to lock small ships, or anything in a blob.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-04-20 19:39:30 UTC
Try locking the correct frig (clicking in space ofc, no overview or braodcast) in a 20+ man gang, then come back here to tell me its a good idea
davet517
Raata Invicti
#8 - 2015-04-20 20:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Try locking the correct frig (clicking in space ofc, no overview or braodcast) in a 20+ man gang, then come back here to tell me its a good idea


Being hard (especially in a huge blob) is the point. A single target caller (usually the FC) being able to command all of the DPS in the fleet just by clicking on the overview is a big part of what makes blobs of even unskilled players powerful.

If this were implemented, combat would work differently. Your tacklers would have to tackle, and call for assistance once they got someone tackled. Trying to move the whole blob to that tackler would be cumbersome and inefficient. It'd be more efficient to fight as squads that included tacklers, DPSers, and logi. Big fleet fights would look less like 19th century lines of musketeers firing in unison, and more like a semi-chaotic modern battle. More advantage would go to those who fly well, and big blobs of unskilled players would just get slaughtered.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#9 - 2015-04-20 21:00:16 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
No, that's not skill, it's fighting the UI to do what you want to do.

Sadly too many players think this is skill.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Cade Windstalker
#10 - 2015-04-20 22:57:25 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Try locking the correct frig (clicking in space ofc, no overview or braodcast) in a 20+ man gang, then come back here to tell me its a good idea


Being hard (especially in a huge blob) is the point. A single target caller (usually the FC) being able to command all of the DPS in the fleet just by clicking on the overview is a big part of what makes blobs of even unskilled players powerful.

If this were implemented, combat would work differently. Your tacklers would have to tackle, and call for assistance once they got someone tackled. Trying to move the whole blob to that tackler would be cumbersome and inefficient. It'd be more efficient to fight as squads that included tacklers, DPSers, and logi. Big fleet fights would look less like 19th century lines of musketeers firing in unison, and more like a semi-chaotic modern battle. More advantage would go to those who fly well, and big blobs of unskilled players would just get slaughtered.


Or, and this is just a thought, everyone could just "look-at" the tackle/FC/whatever and fit sniper setups. With look-at they can easily track whatever the pilot in question is targeting, unless you know, the UI gets further in their way somehow, and we're back to the Alpha-Mael fleets from ~5-6 years ago.

What you're doing here isn't even making this *hard* it's just making it frustrating.

"Darn, I thought I clicked him that time but I clicked that Titan again instead" or "How the ^%$#&$#@$%# is anyone supposed to click on a MWD Frigate!?!?!"

At least until someone finds an easy trick to get around the lack of UI functionality, and then we're back to square one, because if you *can* get everyone to shoot one target that's the optimal strategy and nothing here changes that, it just makes it frustrating for people to target anything let alone the single target they're looking for.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2015-04-21 00:57:07 UTC
davet517 wrote:
For about 10 years now, the core skill / mechanic in Eve fleet fights has been the ability to listen to a target caller and focus fire. He who degrades the enemy's DPS to a tankable level first wins. If you have your overview set up and sorted like your FC, picking out the target that he calls becomes trivial. If you're watching a broadcast window, it's even easier.

What if it was harder? If players were removed from overview, there was no target broadcast window, and you had to aquire targets in space, would it throw the balance away from numbers and back toward skill?

What if you had to fly around in space in small formations of tackle, DPS, and logi, working together killing targets as you got them tackled, because trying to coordinate 100s of players to focus fire would be too hard, chaotic, and confusing, but in smaller groups, tacklers could call their tackle and DPS could move in for the kill? Might it give a smaller but more skillful fleet a better chance against large numbers of players with average or worse skill?

This is a wild idea. Yeah, there are a hundred reasons why it won't work. How would you improve upon it so that it would work?


Sounds like Eve Valkyrie to me.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#12 - 2015-04-21 06:22:09 UTC
Also removing the broadcast list also nerfs the logi on the enemy side which would skew the meta even more... Hell they added broadcasts because it needed doing to make the bigger fights playable.

Also there are more places that use stuff like logi and the watchlist other then PVP incursions and some other high end pve come to mind...
Claud Tiberius
#13 - 2015-04-21 06:33:47 UTC
Ganking the primary target shouldn't be prevented or the effect reduced. To quickly summarise, its a bad idea.

But a nice way to break up a fleets fire could be to introduce line of site and friendly fire. Fleets would have to actually organize into formations and check their line of fire. It could also open up some interesting tactical maneuvers. In effect, it would decentralise fleet command thus, less primary ganks would occur.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.