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Are ship speeds in a good place?
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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#1 - 2015-04-11 23:33:43 UTC
EvE has gotten faster and faster in the last couple years with damage projection becoming more important simultaneously.
I wont suggest anything this time and would rather like to ask you guys how you feel about ship speeds at the moment.
Should they get cut? Should they increase? Everything fine?
Ive had a discussion with a few people recently about this, starting with why certain ships and tactics are not viable anymore (like the Neutron Blaster kiting Deimos, beleave it or not, it almost didnt get hurt at all by the Tracking Enhancer nerf) and came to the conclusion that ships speeds are the actual issue.

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Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#2 - 2015-04-11 23:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
They aren't - Cruisers en masse being the culprit. I didn't want to touch upon it in the Absolution bonus discussion thread.

Now with T3Ds being what they are, AFs want in on the action - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=417297&find=unread Never-ending Need for Speed II is bad.

NFS 1 was when people "suddenly" discovered nanus with no stacking penalty. This time it's structural: from drugs, implants, rigs, OH to oversized ABs, OGB proliferation, high base speeds, number of specialised drone boats, burst tanks plus warp speed changes across the board, pushing the meta even more towards kruisers.

However, fix the kiting gaem and people will glue more logi in, then you'll have to fix the logi. Pirate

Quote:
LAAR
DC
RAH
Nanu
Nanu
Damage mod Y
Damage mod X


When the above is one of the few remaining good solo/gang BS fits, you know something's up.

From one end you're pressured by T3Ds/Cruisers and from the other - BlOps, Bombers & supers. You're ****** if you like anything that moves sub-2.5 km/s, warps less than 3 AU/s and aligns in more than 5 seconds. Used to be a time when a reasonably-sized gang could stage their movements, while retaining presence in any given constellation/region for more than 10 minutes without getting dropped/dunked. Was a long time ago.

I call it cancer meta. Blink

LOCAL TANKS, GOOD SPEEDS, MORE BRAWLS

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#3 - 2015-04-12 00:22:51 UTC
Ship speeds were in a good place until you know what.

Delete D3s.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#4 - 2015-04-12 00:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
Ship speeds were in a good place until you know what.

Delete D3s.


Man, recalled the good old times the second I slapped a 10MN on a DLB Confessor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai92Z7-DJiU

Look at the acceleration and top speed on this thing.

"Proceed with this dangerous act?"


░░░░▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄
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Look at it!

NANOPHOON STAYS WITH YOU 4 LIFE

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-04-12 00:46:41 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
EvE has gotten faster and faster in the last couple years with damage projection becoming more important simultaneously.
I wont suggest anything this time and would rather like to ask you guys how you feel about ship speeds at the moment.
Should they get cut? Should they increase? Everything fine?
Ive had a discussion with a few people recently about this, starting with why certain ships and tactics are not viable anymore (like the Neutron Blaster kiting Deimos, beleave it or not, it almost didnt get hurt at all by the Tracking Enhancer nerf) and came to the conclusion that ships speeds are the actual issue.


You feel ships are getting faster?

Man, back in the days we had battleships going faster than today's interceptor's... Lol

Been around since the beginning.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#6 - 2015-04-12 00:53:21 UTC
Didn't last long and a fix was done overnight. Smile

Something, something major has to happen this Summer, otherwise welcome another year of (fast) heroic cruisers online. The FozzieSov mechanics will dictate all size gang and fleet compositions.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#7 - 2015-04-12 01:12:38 UTC
No.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
#8 - 2015-04-12 01:15:20 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:
No.


But overdrive injector system being Microwarpdrive Sleeper site in Nullsec.

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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-04-12 02:28:48 UTC
Frigs - 500m/s base speed
Desys - 400m/s base speed
Cruises - 300m/s base speed
Bcruises - 200m/s base speed
Bships - 100m/s base speed

Faction and advanced versions of all above +50-70 m/s to the base speed depeneds on faction roles.

Agility and inertia that's where we need to look at.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#10 - 2015-04-12 03:08:44 UTC
We have a pretty big thread going on why oversize propulsion is such a big problem, so I won't rehash that.

For the most part, hull speed only governs the interactions with weapon systems. Hull speed isn't particularly useful at differentiating the positions of ships on even one grid, much less in more exaggerated environments. Agility and warp speed will put ships a few seconds ahead of one another when traveling, but it makes solar systems feel pretty tiny.

I would love to see the game require more slowboating in general, but have environments that don't make that such a turkey shoot. For example, it would be interesting if the position on grid you leave would be parallel to the position on a grid you arrive. That would allow for complex fleet positioning. Doubly interesting if that were also true for stargates, where instead of approaching them, you just had to wait 30 seconds after putting in a request.

In general, I would prefer to see exponential differences in hull speeds, rather than just incremental differences that plot them on a linear slope. To compensate, make sure that each hull class has one set of weapons that allows it to be configured to fill an effective anti-support role one full hull size lower.

Ewar like target painters and webs shouldn't make up the difference of more than two half hull classes (BS->BC>C), but they should be able to tip things in favor of friendly support ships.

There are other ways we could finagle wiggle room. If all turret target sigs were doubled, miss rates would go up independently of tracking. We could offset this with higher damage multipliers for the hits that do strike. This would favor small sig targets against large turrets even within the latter's firing solution at range. I don't actually know if the target sig is calculated as the surface area of a circle, or if it is just a linear number. That should be a testable experiment, but I suspect the latter.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#11 - 2015-04-12 03:53:31 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
...Should they get cut? Should they increase? Everything fine?...


#1: Not necessarely no.

#2: We need to step a few steps back to take a broad look. In their classes most ships that don't have sleeper tech in them are okay-ish.
If we look in relation to other clases like above or below there are things that are not okay right now but a simple band-aid fix won't do.
I said that a few time this is the nano-ago 2.0 we are living in. What is worse than back in the day is the every increasing risk vs reward thing that is so far out of whack that it is difficult to find solutions.

On the one hand we have ships that perform pretty good and even regular tech one doesn't need to shy away from fight if you want but there is a big problem - logistics.
From my observation it seems that nobody wants to fight with an uncertain outcome anymore - they bring logi to their buddies or he could loose a 50m boat - whatever will he do??

Or they bait you and make sure they have 20 Falcons and neuts on you and outnumber you at least 2838372723727374:1 - better save then sorry I guess.

Even worse - the ever growing greed of dullsec carebears.. If those cannot go ratting with 59 carriers in one system or even if one neutral comes in all hell brakes loose.
Whenever I believe I have seen everything now - I am proven so very wrong.

So we have commitment issues with replacable tools and risk-avers folks to sit at the helm. The question is what do they want?
Ship vs ship combat is something they don't want and if they might get into a situation it would be best to not take any risks and get out.
And if they fight you, it is best you fly a ship without modules on - they disable them anyway, so what's the point?

Rinse, repeat? I highly doubt it.

But back to the ships and shipclasses. In the current state of things it would be unwise to fly something not so mobile as a cruiser - time is money and you may have better things to do than staring at your warp tunnel all day long and do something on a grid for a change.
Fly something slower and you get kited and think to yourself that the ships are bad - they aren't. They are just not fast enough to adjust to changing situations.

Take battleships and look on your fitting screen - looks awesome right?

Your Hyperion does 1350dps. Well in theory she does. As soon as you undock, not so much. No amount of dps will do anything good for you if you cannot hit anything.

Oh Baali, EVE used to be better when the playerbase was 35+ of age.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-04-12 05:52:06 UTC
Wrong, ships have been getting slower.

stacking penalties... granted it was need for many reasons.
straight up nano nerf
tericide... slowed a lot of ships to a crawl.

and on projection, there's really only two close range weapon systems. pulse lasers are secretly snipers, autocannons and the hulls they go on have issues.

Drones are insanely strong
rails are good
pulse lasers are good

and lets face it; in a medium with no horizon, brawling is really stupid.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2015-04-12 16:59:34 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
[quote=Baali Tekitsu]---


The major problem with the risk averse people is not so much that they don't want to lose their 50mill cruiser but because they don't even want a 500k isk red mark on their holy kill board


as for everyone bringing logi and OFG this is less a problem of being risk averse and more of a no reason not to bring it and odds are your opponents are going to be bringing it too so why gimp yourself.


it would help with the logi if they weren't quit so strong so that an extra 450 dps of a cruiser may out way having a logi on grid

but at the same time if more FCs and pilots would learn how to use damps and ECM effectively logi would not be so much a problem

it is sad when its harder to get players to alter their ways than to just alter the game but it may come down to that :/

a similar thing that does come down to risk averse players is the fear of hot drops because they don't want to engaged what they don't know so they will do their best to gtfo. and at a point in the game where that cyno could equally wind up being one bomber or a supper with carrier support running off is the smarter thing to do.

I ran around the other day lighting off cov cynos on gate camps (with nothing on the other end) and only 2 of the 10 or so i did that on stayed long enough to notice nothing was coming through the rest just hit jump some did this as soon as they saw the araz decloak before i even light a cyno. and as we all know in LS all you need to do is enter the system to get people docked up

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#14 - 2015-04-12 19:15:46 UTC
The kiting and sniping meta's are too common and nerfing the dps of long range weapons/buffing the dps of short range weapons doesn't change much because that's not the reason people won't fly brawlers. The only time you fly a brawler is if you know with a certainty the fight starts at zero and you can get tackle on before they burn out of range (so almost never), for everything else you want to control range and speed. We always use DPS to balance but it's not the most important thing when designing fits, some of the most effective kiters have laughable DPS and tank so that should tell us something about how unimportant dps can be in relation to speed and range control.

One way to change it without making drastic changes to DPS is to create an inverse relationship between ship speed and range, by adding mass penalties to long range weapons to slow down the ships they are fitted on and make them less maneuverable.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-04-13 01:17:36 UTC
Fourteen Maken wrote:
The kiting and sniping meta's are too common and nerfing the dps of long range weapons/buffing the dps of short range weapons doesn't change much because that's not the reason people won't fly brawlers. The only time you fly a brawler is if you know with a certainty the fight starts at zero and you can get tackle on before they burn out of range (so almost never), for everything else you want to control range and speed. We always use DPS to balance but it's not the most important thing when designing fits, some of the most effective kiters have laughable DPS and tank so that should tell us something about how unimportant dps can be in relation to speed and range control.

One way to change it without making drastic changes to DPS is to create an inverse relationship between ship speed and range, by adding mass penalties to long range weapons to slow down the ships they are fitted on and make them less maneuverable.


No, I'd rather the game not be dumbed down to a tank and spank pissing match. more to the point brawling has always been and still is fine, and what do you mean people don't fly brawlers. I see them all the time and they work very well.

especially with hull tanking update.

Arla Sarain
#16 - 2015-04-13 09:04:57 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
what do you mean people don't fly brawlers. I see them all the time and they work very well.

especially with hull tanking update.


Things brawling ships have to deal with before they get to do their magic:
Getting close
Scram kiting
Pretty much every other ship being faster
Being in smartbomb range almost exclusively
Over slingshotting
Damage projection Vs Tackle range margin (about the most important).

Kiters:
Other kiters.

People do fly brawlers. They are not good. Unless having high paper DPS is good.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#17 - 2015-04-13 13:28:04 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
what do you mean people don't fly brawlers. I see them all the time and they work very well.

especially with hull tanking update.


Things brawling ships have to deal with before they get to do their magic:
Getting close
Scram kiting
Pretty much every other ship being faster
Being in smartbomb range almost exclusively
Over slingshotting
Damage projection Vs Tackle range margin (about the most important).

Kiters:
Other kiters.

So, basically, people have become denser thanks to games like Angry Birds (I love to bash on that trash piece of software) and cannot keep more than 1 or 2 variable in their head and calculate at least a couple of consequences when they change. I'm with Lugh here when he said: "it is sad when its harder to get players to alter their ways than to just alter the game but it may come down to that :/". It is ridiculous that every piece of software these days takes the densest of people as benchmark and develops with their needs exclusively in mind. It is not to say that I am a superhuman and can do all that stuff; in fact, I stay out of solo PVP a la predeator666 and the likes exactly because of that. However, removing more and more elements that make an equation less difficult to calculate just to cater to the inept is a terribly wrong approach.

On the other hand, the way you depict kiting isn't entirely true either:
You have to keep watch over other ships getting too close to web/scram you,
Ewar like Damps or TDs can make it impossible for you to do anything at all,
You also need to keep your ammo and range checked
If people are good, they can burn away from you and sling-shot you into scram/web range
You can burn too far away so that people can warp to you or to some fast ship behind you and land right on top of you
etc.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#18 - 2015-04-13 14:47:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
Nope, things are way too fast these days. Warp changes should have made everything faster, not make cruisers the base-line for warp speed. Smaller ships being so much faster then larger makes flying larger ships generally not viable (solo). Those gangs will catch you if you misclick or make a single mistake.

Links need to just be killed; I go 2.5km/s in my cruiser without and 3.8km/s because I'm in a google hangout with some idiot 50AU away sitting on a station undock or next to a gate....just mind numbingly stupid.

Would be nice if AB / MWD discrepancy was adjusted. 1km/s with an AB vs 4km/s with an MWD makes the former obsolete in most cases. If you're in a small gang and you're the guy who brought the AB.....you might as well be docked. I'd knock 100% off the MWD speed bonus (sig adjusted accordingly) and again, remove link speed increases completely.

But these things will never happen. It's like gutting the Ishtar, they simply won't do it.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#19 - 2015-04-13 15:25:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
what do you mean people don't fly brawlers. I see them all the time and they work very well.

especially with hull tanking update.


Things brawling ships have to deal with before they get to do their magic:
Getting close
Scram kiting
Pretty much every other ship being faster
Being in smartbomb range almost exclusively
Over slingshotting
Damage projection Vs Tackle range margin (about the most important).

Kiters:
Other kiters.

So, basically, people have become denser thanks to games like Angry Birds (I love to bash on that trash piece of software) and cannot keep more than 1 or 2 variable in their head and calculate at least a couple of consequences when they change. I'm with Lugh here when he said: "it is sad when its harder to get players to alter their ways than to just alter the game but it may come down to that :/". It is ridiculous that every piece of software these days takes the densest of people as benchmark and develops with their needs exclusively in mind. It is not to say that I am a superhuman and can do all that stuff; in fact, I stay out of solo PVP a la predeator666 and the likes exactly because of that. However, removing more and more elements that make an equation less difficult to calculate just to cater to the inept is a terribly wrong approach.

On the other hand, the way you depict kiting isn't entirely true either:
You have to keep watch over other ships getting too close to web/scram you,
Ewar like Damps or TDs can make it impossible for you to do anything at all,
You also need to keep your ammo and range checked
If people are good, they can burn away from you and sling-shot you into scram/web range
You can burn too far away so that people can warp to you or to some fast ship behind you and land right on top of you
etc.


More or less, when you look at the enemy ship instead of your own, kiting becomes even easier...
Arla Sarain
#20 - 2015-04-13 16:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Rivr Luzade wrote:

If people are good, they can burn away from you and sling-shot you into scram/web range

This is one and only, moment to moment tactic that a brawl ship can use against a kiter that has committed to a fight.

And you are not slingshotting anything with an AB. Unless you are in a ship that has enough agility and base speed, in which case you likely lack the tank or DPS to matter.

Like Phaade said, the disparity between AB and MWD is too large.

Couple that with projection to tackle range margins of fast ships, its obvious that kiters are at a large advantage.

It's not equations. You either have a counter to the enemy ship or you don't. It's not rocket science to figure out that scram beats MWD, MWD beats AB and AB beats scram. It's the lack of moment-to-moment strategies that involve more than moving in a straight line, staying out of your enemies DPS range, whilst keeping him in yours. Which is heavily biased towards kiters outside of the slingshot ponytrick. It's a ponytrick cos you have to be asleep to get slingshotted, or new to the game.
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