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Xenuria: CSM 11

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Author
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2015-04-10 21:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
Xenuria wrote:
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
Your argument is that standings should not affect ship skins because
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

ingame activities/stats should never effect the cost of out of game purchases



Please show me where in this thread I said that.
Ship skins are for your in-game assets, it's not like buying a ship skin causes a shirt or a coffee mug to come flying out of your computer screen upon purchase. Your entire argument like those in my CSM 10 thread is based on conflation.


An in game asset that you're buying with real life money hence "out of game purchases".

Letting someone buy something cheaper based on in game standings is the same as putting a barrier between people and their money, your penalising someone for not playing one specific aspect of the game, CCP will never do it and for good reason as it's an absurd idea for a business to entertain.


By that logic PLEX should cost a flat amount because at present an unfair advantage is giving to people who wish to purchase PLEX with isk instead of real life money.

Ship skins are not planned to be an out of game purchase as far as I know, they can be bought with aurum or isk, both of which are ingame commodities. Buying isk for IRL cash is illegal and considered RMT, so I don't think your argument holds any water.

except PLEX IS a flat rate, everyone ingame buys it for the selling price, adn anyone can buy it at that price at any given time, no one gets a magical 10% off for standings

and PLEX bought with real cash is the same price for everyone, because no one gets an arbitrary discount that no one else gets access to simply because they played one part of the game a whole lot.

so yeah, PLEX is a flat price out of game, and a fluctuating price ingame, but its a price that is equal to everyone, no one has any 0's added or subtracted from the number.


were saying your proposal would CREATE an imbalance, because, again using the PLEX example, someone with security standings between 0-5 gets 5% off PLEX purchases, and people with security standing 5-10 get 10% off, people with low security status would be put at a real world disadvantage against people who have a higher security standing, because a commodity would be given magical discounts to people who played a certain aspect of the game and not others. so for every PLEX a pirate could buy to fund his pvp, a mission runner could buy 1.1 PLEX, which means the mission runner is the one determining the standard for plex sales, adn the pirate gets no say, because he is at an inherent market disadvantage that can only be circumvented by spending more real life cash than his opponent for the same number of commodoties.

basically your proposal creates a situation of "pay to win" or to more specific "pay less to win", and penalizes group's out of game purchasing abilities based on their ingame playstyle


now if you simply want to argue discounts on LP/ISK items only, discounts NOT applying to cash based purchases, then we have a workable idea. and if that is the case please make it understood clearly in the OP to avoid further confusion.




********** But please, I ask of you, your CSM thread is not the place to break down and discuss individual ideas, if you would kindly take your proposals, make individual F&I threads for them, or contribute to existing threads when necesary, then link your post in your OP statement to show your support for individual ideas that we can then view for discussion within the appropriate forum, that would be nice. It will allow your CSM thread to remain clean and orderly, and entirely focused on the actual act of attempting election, rather than specific details of each proposal.
Lauresh Thellere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-04-11 04:17:53 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
Your argument is that standings should not affect ship skins because
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

ingame activities/stats should never effect the cost of out of game purchases



Please show me where in this thread I said that.
Ship skins are for your in-game assets, it's not like buying a ship skin causes a shirt or a coffee mug to come flying out of your computer screen upon purchase. Your entire argument like those in my CSM 10 thread is based on conflation.


An in game asset that you're buying with real life money hence "out of game purchases".

Letting someone buy something cheaper based on in game standings is the same as putting a barrier between people and their money, your penalising someone for not playing one specific aspect of the game, CCP will never do it and for good reason as it's an absurd idea for a business to entertain.


By that logic PLEX should cost a flat amount because at present an unfair advantage is giving to people who wish to purchase PLEX with isk instead of real life money.

Ship skins are not planned to be an out of game purchase as far as I know, they can be bought with aurum or isk, both of which are ingame commodities. Buying isk for IRL cash is illegal and considered RMT, so I don't think your argument holds any water.


That's a strawman argument and you know it. Nothing in game has any effect what so ever on the $19.95 PLEX price, just regular deals available to everyone simultaneously.
Xenuria
#23 - 2015-04-11 18:37:30 UTC
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
Your argument is that standings should not affect ship skins because
Nariya Kentaya wrote:

ingame activities/stats should never effect the cost of out of game purchases



Please show me where in this thread I said that.
Ship skins are for your in-game assets, it's not like buying a ship skin causes a shirt or a coffee mug to come flying out of your computer screen upon purchase. Your entire argument like those in my CSM 10 thread is based on conflation.


An in game asset that you're buying with real life money hence "out of game purchases".

Letting someone buy something cheaper based on in game standings is the same as putting a barrier between people and their money, your penalising someone for not playing one specific aspect of the game, CCP will never do it and for good reason as it's an absurd idea for a business to entertain.


By that logic PLEX should cost a flat amount because at present an unfair advantage is giving to people who wish to purchase PLEX with isk instead of real life money.

Ship skins are not planned to be an out of game purchase as far as I know, they can be bought with aurum or isk, both of which are ingame commodities. Buying isk for IRL cash is illegal and considered RMT, so I don't think your argument holds any water.


That's a strawman argument and you know it. Nothing in game has any effect what so ever on the $19.95 PLEX price, just regular deals available to everyone simultaneously.


You just made my argument for me. Thanks.
Lauresh Thellere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2015-04-12 12:52:38 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:


By that logic PLEX should cost a flat amount because at present an unfair advantage is giving to people who wish to purchase PLEX with isk instead of real life money.

Ship skins are not planned to be an out of game purchase as far as I know, they can be bought with aurum or isk, both of which are ingame commodities. Buying isk for IRL cash is illegal and considered RMT, so I don't think your argument holds any water.


That's a strawman argument and you know it. Nothing in game has any effect what so ever on the $19.95 PLEX price, just regular deals available to everyone simultaneously.


You just made my argument for me. Thanks.


Either you've just changed your stance or you don't understand what you're saying.

There should not be any discounts for people with higher in game standings than people without, exactly how it is now.
Xenuria
#25 - 2015-04-12 13:30:30 UTC
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:


By that logic PLEX should cost a flat amount because at present an unfair advantage is giving to people who wish to purchase PLEX with isk instead of real life money.

Ship skins are not planned to be an out of game purchase as far as I know, they can be bought with aurum or isk, both of which are ingame commodities. Buying isk for IRL cash is illegal and considered RMT, so I don't think your argument holds any water.


That's a strawman argument and you know it. Nothing in game has any effect what so ever on the $19.95 PLEX price, just regular deals available to everyone simultaneously.


You just made my argument for me. Thanks.


Either you've just changed your stance or you don't understand what you're saying.

There should not be any discounts for people with higher in game standings than people without, exactly how it is now.

Your not very good at this.

You need to pick an argument and stick with it.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#26 - 2015-04-12 15:19:00 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
You need to pick an argument and stick with it.
Might be, if you follow your own advice, this CSM bid will crawl closer to the finishing line.

Swapping arguments like you're doing; first that things you buy with RL money (And perhaps later with ISK) should receive a discount - then when others asks you to explain it won't - then when others follow the argument to its logical conclusion call it off topic - then deny that buying cosmetic items (For RL money) has anything to do with buying PLEX (For RL money) - then then somehow manages to to reverse course underway, such that no ingame action should impact the price you pay in RL money.
Xenuria, you're arguing against yourself and claiming that it defeats other peoples arguments.

Ship skins and other cosmetic items are currently entering the game through RL money expenditure, represented by aurum. You argue that ingame standings should give a discount when you purchase cosmetic items from associated factions. That would give a RL money discount to a specific gameplay.
Others have asked you, very specificly, if you meant with ISK/LP purchases alone.
That would save your arguments entirely, yet you have not said so and you haven't responded to their posts. One might hazard the guess that it's because it isn't solely ISK/LP purchases you mean, hence some confusion.

Personally, I had expected you to wait a few pages more before denouncing your own platform, but I guess your campaigning "skill" is a zero-sum game. When you improve your OP, you make a hackjob of the later posts.
Lauresh Thellere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-04-13 09:52:05 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:


By that logic PLEX should cost a flat amount because at present an unfair advantage is giving to people who wish to purchase PLEX with isk instead of real life money.

Ship skins are not planned to be an out of game purchase as far as I know, they can be bought with aurum or isk, both of which are ingame commodities. Buying isk for IRL cash is illegal and considered RMT, so I don't think your argument holds any water.


That's a strawman argument and you know it. Nothing in game has any effect what so ever on the $19.95 PLEX price, just regular deals available to everyone simultaneously.


You just made my argument for me. Thanks.


Either you've just changed your stance or you don't understand what you're saying.

There should not be any discounts for people with higher in game standings than people without, exactly how it is now.

Your not very good at this.

You need to pick an argument and stick with it.


Sigh, no point dealing with a troll I guess, you seem to have no interest in having a rational conversation so I'm withdrawing from the conversation entirely.
Orange Aideron
Singularity Surfers
#28 - 2015-05-13 08:07:56 UTC
shoes! oh no! the SHOOOES!

I want the damn station door to open first before i buy my evewifu a set of high res stiletto's.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2015-05-27 00:34:58 UTC
OP, let's put this simply.

I have skinned my dread and my carrier. They are good ships, between them they've survived almost every major battle the CFC has been involved in in the past three years or more. 6VDT, HED, BR-5, pretty much everythign except Asakai.

Why, exactly, should my carrier skin cost me £13.70, but the exact same skin, bought from the exact same store, not cost a highsec carebear a single penny?

What do you think would happen to the market if it were possible for anyone, at all, to get hold of skins for free by grinding enough missions? (I'll give you a hint: Look at the price of a reaper in Jita, that's about where the skins would be.)
Xenuria
#30 - 2015-05-27 00:41:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
OP, let's put this simply.

I have skinned my dread and my carrier. They are good ships, between them they've survived almost every major battle the CFC has been involved in in the past three years or more. 6VDT, HED, BR-5, pretty much everythign except Asakai.

Why, exactly, should my carrier skin cost me £13.70, but the exact same skin, bought from the exact same store, not cost a highsec carebear a single penny?

What do you think would happen to the market if it were possible for anyone, at all, to get hold of skins for free by grinding enough missions? (I'll give you a hint: Look at the price of a reaper in Jita, that's about where the skins would be.)


Time and Effort Investment
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2015-05-27 00:45:27 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
OP, let's put this simply.

I have skinned my dread and my carrier. They are good ships, between them they've survived almost every major battle the CFC has been involved in in the past three years or more. 6VDT, HED, BR-5, pretty much everythign except Asakai.

Why, exactly, should my carrier skin cost me £13.70, but the exact same skin, bought from the exact same store, not cost a highsec carebear a single penny?

What do you think would happen to the market if it were possible for anyone, at all, to get hold of skins for free by grinding enough missions? (I'll give you a hint: Look at the price of a reaper in Jita, that's about where the skins would be.)


Time and Effort Investment



Perhaps you missed the part where I have invested my time and effort in actually using said ships, frequently, and in a manner that actually allows for player interaction?


Why do you feel that grinding missions is more important than this, especially given that your idea would simply collapse the SKIN market entirely (thus losing CCP whatever revenue it brings in)?
Xenuria
#32 - 2015-05-27 00:50:22 UTC
I am not asserting importance, merely saying EVE is about different paths to the same or similar goals. To limit the skins market as it is is counter-intuitive to the spirit of eve.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2015-05-27 00:54:10 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
I am not asserting importance, merely saying EVE is about different paths to the same or similar goals. To limit the skins market as it is is counter-intuitive to the spirit of eve.


And is it not counter productive to leave the SKIN market in tatters? If anyone can obtain an infinate number of them for free, they will do. The things will end up at reaper prices with ease. (For reference: A reaper in Jita is under 78k isk).

Why is that good for the game?

And does the very fact that you CAN sell the things for ISK not open up enough different paths to obtaining them?
Xenuria
#34 - 2015-05-27 00:56:30 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
I am not asserting importance, merely saying EVE is about different paths to the same or similar goals. To limit the skins market as it is is counter-intuitive to the spirit of eve.


And is it not counter productive to leave the SKIN market in tatters? If anyone can obtain an infinate number of them for free, they will do. The things will end up at reaper prices with ease. (For reference: A reaper in Jita is under 78k isk).

Why is that good for the game?

And does the very fact that you CAN sell the things for ISK not open up enough different paths to obtaining them?


I think you misunderstood me or don't understand how SKINS work.
Once you activate a permanent license its no longer transferable and you can't just turn around and sell it. So the proposed changes I mention mean that a player could not just make isk off of their standing. They would only be able to use it on themselves.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2015-05-27 01:04:50 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
I am not asserting importance, merely saying EVE is about different paths to the same or similar goals. To limit the skins market as it is is counter-intuitive to the spirit of eve.


And is it not counter productive to leave the SKIN market in tatters? If anyone can obtain an infinate number of them for free, they will do. The things will end up at reaper prices with ease. (For reference: A reaper in Jita is under 78k isk).

Why is that good for the game?

And does the very fact that you CAN sell the things for ISK not open up enough different paths to obtaining them?


I think you misunderstood me or don't understand how SKINS work.
Once you activate a permanent license its no longer transferable and you can't just turn around and sell it. So the proposed changes I mention mean that a player could not just make isk off of their standing. They would only be able to use it on themselves.



So you sell them BEFORE you activate them.

I have a couple of dozen of the things sitting in Jita, I know how a SKIN works. Under your system, you'd simply redeem thousands of them, for free, and dump them onto the market rather than activating them.
Xenuria
#36 - 2015-05-27 03:49:29 UTC
I think I see what your saying. I didn't mean like that. I mean to say that redemption through standings would not be the same as buying with isk. It would be automatically made permanent and activated to the player. I agree that an untethered standings based skin system is dumb.

Sykaotic
Doomheim
#37 - 2015-05-31 21:03:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sykaotic
I like Xen...

but to the average player, the CSM is an entire waste / 100% totally useless. If you run on a platform to have 1 final CSM and then disband CSM forever I would vote for you.
Lauresh Thellere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2015-06-06 14:19:18 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
I think I see what your saying. I didn't mean like that. I mean to say that redemption through standings would not be the same as buying with isk. It would be automatically made permanent and activated to the player. I agree that an untethered standings based skin system is dumb.



The current system works perfectly. Everyone can either buy skins on the NES for a fixed price or buy from the market at a fluctuating price depending on supply and demand, there's also skins available through the LP store as well which cost the person no actual monetary investment.

What you're arguing to implement will not only cause discrimination (and yes, giving discounts to someone based on their personal preference of what to do in game IS discrimination) it will cost CCP lost revenue due to arbitrarily giving one specific subset of the game a discount.

If you want free or cheap skins Xenuria, do a deal with someone on the market just like everyone else.
Xenuria
#39 - 2015-06-06 15:54:34 UTC
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
I think I see what your saying. I didn't mean like that. I mean to say that redemption through standings would not be the same as buying with isk. It would be automatically made permanent and activated to the player. I agree that an untethered standings based skin system is dumb.



The current system works perfectly. Everyone can either buy skins on the NES for a fixed price or buy from the market at a fluctuating price depending on supply and demand, there's also skins available through the LP store as well which cost the person no actual monetary investment.

What you're arguing to implement will not only cause discrimination (and yes, giving discounts to someone based on their personal preference of what to do in game IS discrimination) it will cost CCP lost revenue due to arbitrarily giving one specific subset of the game a discount.

If you want free or cheap skins Xenuria, do a deal with someone on the market just like everyone else.


If your argument is that my proposed changes are discrimination against personal preference than the same argument can just as easily be made about jump clone access in stations or the cost to reprocess in stations. A player with higher standing yields a profound benefit over one with no or low standing. The problem with your argument is that it's based on a poor understanding of how EvE works in the context of accessibility.

Every choice you make in eve has a consequence and those consequences never go away even though they might change form or be differed in some way. Players who have perfect 10.0 standing with Sansha Nation can already make a jump clone at ANY Sansha Nation station, they can also have 0% tax on reprocessing at ANY Sansha Nation Station. There is no harm in also allowing these same people who have made a ~choice~ to have all sansha skins permanently for free without the possibility of them profiting from it on the market.

I seriously feel that you should do some more research on the subject of time investment mechanics in EvE before attempting to debate this matter further.
Lauresh Thellere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-06-06 19:11:16 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Lauresh Thellere wrote:
Xenuria wrote:
I think I see what your saying. I didn't mean like that. I mean to say that redemption through standings would not be the same as buying with isk. It would be automatically made permanent and activated to the player. I agree that an untethered standings based skin system is dumb.



The current system works perfectly. Everyone can either buy skins on the NES for a fixed price or buy from the market at a fluctuating price depending on supply and demand, there's also skins available through the LP store as well which cost the person no actual monetary investment.

What you're arguing to implement will not only cause discrimination (and yes, giving discounts to someone based on their personal preference of what to do in game IS discrimination) it will cost CCP lost revenue due to arbitrarily giving one specific subset of the game a discount.

If you want free or cheap skins Xenuria, do a deal with someone on the market just like everyone else.


If your argument is that my proposed changes are discrimination against personal preference than the same argument can just as easily be made about jump clone access in stations or the cost to reprocess in stations. A player with higher standing yields a profound benefit over one with no or low standing. The problem with your argument is that it's based on a poor understanding of how EvE works in the context of accessibility.

Every choice you make in eve has a consequence and those consequences never go away even though they might change form or be differed in some way. Players who have perfect 10.0 standing with Sansha Nation can already make a jump clone at ANY Sansha Nation station, they can also have 0% tax on reprocessing at ANY Sansha Nation Station. There is no harm in also allowing these same people who have made a ~choice~ to have all sansha skins permanently for free without the possibility of them profiting from it on the market.

I seriously feel that you should do some more research on the subject of time investment mechanics in EvE before attempting to debate this matter further.


Your argument makes no sense. I don't spend real life money to install a jump clone or reprocess and if CCP ever did make it that way I suspect the game would lose subscribers instantly. I'd also like to point out that you can't install a jump clone in any station, you have to physically be at the station but sure, you can install jump clones in any station you're physically in of that faction which proves that people with good standings already get enough of a benefit to not need to keep throwing more at them.

You seem to keep arguing that in game mechanics such as standings should influence out of game purchases and provide analogies that aren't at all relevant.

CCP are never going to let people have skins for free when they're on the cash market, give aways or limited time deals sure but never as a game mechanic.

If you can prove to me how your idea would work without providing irrelevant analogies and flawed logic then I'll consider it but so far all I see in your idea is a way to severely break the game and economy.
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