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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

First post First post First post
Author
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#3921 - 2015-03-27 16:24:20 UTC
Ignore exeleron for 1. his post is getting deleted for trolling and 2. he hates me anyway.

thank you fanboy :)
eXeler0n
Shark Coalition
#3922 - 2015-03-27 16:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: eXeler0n
It allows a single player to be minimum as efficient as a good group. Because of the lack of human errors (alpha dmg for example) they often perform even better then the same number of chars that are controlled by induvidual players.

I would search for my calculations I made already in german forums, but as Charadrass showed me, it is useless to show this to most ISBoxers, as they don't understand them.

ISBoxers should get skill, friends, play as intended or simply leave the game. They use tools only if they aren't able to do one of the previous mentioned things.

P.s. May your new tools are different, but I can't understand, why players are unable to play a game as intended. Especially if they say that there is no difference to the intended way?

eXeler0n

============================

Quafe:  http://quafe.de

Blogpack:  http://eveblogs.de

eXeler0n
Shark Coalition
#3923 - 2015-03-27 16:29:57 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
Ignore exeleron for 1. his post is getting deleted for trolling and 2. he hates me anyway.

thank you fanboy :)


It's not hate, my dear Charadrass. It's pity.

eXeler0n

============================

Quafe:  http://quafe.de

Blogpack:  http://eveblogs.de

Jason Xado
Doomheim
#3924 - 2015-03-27 16:52:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Xado
eXeler0n wrote:
friends, play as intended


Once again, exactly my point. Solo players should not feel comfortable playing Eve Online. It is only for people who want to be in groups. At least I am assuming that is CCP's opinion on the matter of solo players, as they are removing tools solo players were using to compete with groups.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#3925 - 2015-03-27 17:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Xado
Lucas Kell wrote:
Quite honestly they've got their priorities twisted and are kicking some of the most dedicated players who have invested thousands into the game in the nuts


Truth!

I think this is the part that bothers me the most. My reward for spending thousands of dollars on this game and being an extremely loyal fan for years is to be told that "Oh by the way, we think you are a filthy dirty cheater. We have always thought you were a filthy dirty cheater, but didn't want to say anything because we liked your money. But now for our own super secret reasons we want you to go away, you filthy dirty cheater."

Now I know I have a heart...for it is broken.
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#3926 - 2015-03-27 18:18:27 UTC
eXeler0n wrote:
It allows a single player to be minimum as efficient as a good group. Because of the lack of human errors (alpha dmg for example) they often perform even better then the same number of chars that are controlled by induvidual players.

I would search for my calculations I made already in german forums, but as Charadrass showed me, it is useless to show this to most ISBoxers, as they don't understand them.

ISBoxers should get skill, friends, play as intended or simply leave the game. They use tools only if they aren't able to do one of the previous mentioned things.

P.s. May your new tools are different, but I can't understand, why players are unable to play a game as intended. Especially if they say that there is no difference to the intended way?


i Play as i want to Play. i am telling you that.
and the Problem here is that ccp is banning your left Hand. while supporting the right Hand.
eve overview and videofx are exactly the same.
one is endorsed by ccp the other banned.

thats logic?
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3927 - 2015-03-27 20:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nolak Ataru
eXeler0n wrote:
It allows a single player to be minimum as efficient as a good group. Because of the lack of human errors (alpha dmg for example) they often perform even better then the same number of chars that are controlled by induvidual players.
I would search for my calculations I made already in german forums, but as Charadrass showed me, it is useless to show this to most ISBoxers, as they don't understand them.
ISBoxers should get skill, friends, play as intended or simply leave the game. They use tools only if they aren't able to do one of the previous mentioned things.
P.s. May your new tools are different, but I can't understand, why players are unable to play a game as intended. Especially if they say that there is no difference to the intended way?


1) I dunno what you think multiboxing is, but it's still affected by human error. If I mis-click, half my boxes will target A and half will target B, and that's on a good day! On a bad day, my boxes will be split completely 1 for 1 on each target.

2) We're motivated by actual figures, evidence, and facts, not feelings and beliefs. Show us actual evidence or facts and we can have an actual conversation. Leave the feels to tumblr.

3) Don't knock it until you try it. ISBoxer is not "plug and play" like some cheap two-bit Dell keyboard. Just like racing, it may seem simple and easy from the sidelines or from the couch, but sit behind the wheel and it isn't so easy. Hell, I was on the other side of the fence here! I tried ISBoxing myself, and found out just how difficult it was. I've had about 3/4 of a year of practice, and I like to think I'm semi-decent, but I'm nowhere near as good as others are. But all combined we are nowhere near as good as an alliance like PL or HK in their prime, or as fast as TVP-VG's new Roadrunner fleets. A new ISBoxer is nowhere near as efficient as a good group, even if the ISBoxer has 500m SP toons. Remember: Ebay'd characters being piloted by Joe Schmoe will die to a 5m SP toon piloted by Mr Hyde (sorry for spelling). I can drop as much money as I want into the game and buy purple mods and the only thing that will get me (assuming I bought PLEX) is a one-way ticket to TMC's ALOD column.

4) "... unable to play a game as intended". Uh, wormholes? Incursions? Roaming capital fleets? Double heavy cap boosting Moros? Slippery Petes? C6 Magentar infinite guns? CCP didn't imagine people would min/max this game as strongly as they have. The biggest example are wormholes. CCP didn't expect people to live in them 24/7, but they did. I doubt people expected market PVPers to have such powerful tools available to them to let them and move well over 1 T ISK/month. I also doubt CCP foresaw the growth of the lotto websites as well.

5) Some of us dislike massive groups. I personally tend to get migraines when I'm on a comm channel with 25+ people and some of them talking over each other. There are some among us who are more paranoid than others, and there are some who want to challenge themselves as much as possible when it comes to the game and their multitasking abilities. Watching the video of Pinkskull the Multiboxer from WoW (here) I'm amazed at what a seriously devoted multiboxer can do. I'm nowhere near his level of competency, and thanks to the server's coding as well as fundamental differences in the two games, nobody can do that sort of thing in EVE.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3928 - 2015-03-27 21:07:04 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
1) I dunno what you think multiboxing is, but it's still affected by human error. If I mis-click, half my boxes will target A and half will target B, and that's on a good day! On a bad day, my boxes will be split completely 1 for 1 on each target.

2) We're motivated by actual figures, evidence, and facts, not feelings and beliefs. Show us actual evidence or facts and we can have an actual conversation. Leave the feels to tumblr.

3) Don't knock it until you try it. ISBoxer is not "plug and play" like some cheap two-bit Dell keyboard. Just like racing, it may seem simple and easy from the sidelines or from the couch, but sit behind the wheel and it isn't so easy. Hell, I was on the other side of the fence here! I tried ISBoxing myself, and found out just how difficult it was. I've had about 3/4 of a year of practice, and I like to think I'm semi-decent, but I'm nowhere near as good as others are. But all combined we are nowhere near as good as an alliance like PL or HK in their prime, or as fast as TVP-VG's new Roadrunner fleets. A new ISBoxer is nowhere near as efficient as a good group, even if the ISBoxer has 500m SP toons. Remember: Ebay'd characters being piloted by Joe Schmoe will die to a 5m SP toon piloted by Mr Hyde (sorry for spelling). I can drop as much money as I want into the game and buy purple mods and the only thing that will get me (assuming I bought PLEX) is a one-way ticket to TMC's ALOD column.

4) "... unable to play a game as intended". Uh, wormholes? Incursions? Roaming capital fleets? Double heavy cap boosting Moros? Slippery Petes? C6 Magentar infinite guns? CCP didn't imagine people would min/max this game as strongly as they have. The biggest example are wormholes. CCP didn't expect people to live in them 24/7, but they did. I doubt people expected market PVPers to have such powerful tools available to them to let them and move well over 1 T ISK/month. I also doubt CCP foresaw the growth of the lotto websites as well.

5) Some of us dislike massive groups. I personally tend to get migraines when I'm on a comm channel with 25+ people and some of them talking over each other. There are some among us who are more paranoid than others, and there are some who want to challenge themselves as much as possible when it comes to the game and their multitasking abilities. Watching the video of Pinkskull the Multiboxer from WoW (here) I'm amazed at what a seriously devoted multiboxer can do. I'm nowhere near his level of competency, and thanks to the server's coding as well as fundamental differences in the two games, nobody can do that sort of thing in EVE.
I've actually ended up shooting myself more than once over the years when using the repeater in isboxer. Despite the fact that I use the overview for targeting and the overview is set to NOT show fleet members or in the case of incursions to ONLY show NPCs. When my vindis would start shooting a harby in my fleet it got interesting quickly. Best I could figure is I was somehow clicking on ships in space occasionally on some of the accounts.

There's a video of pinkskill interacting with a GM due to petitions. The GM actually told the people that were complaining to HTFU cause it's allowed. Isn't that funny that the people running the game disparaged as hello kitty online have a harder stance than ccp.



Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3929 - 2015-03-27 21:23:02 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:
I've actually ended up shooting myself more than once over the years when using the repeater in isboxer. Despite the fact that I use the overview for targeting and the overview is set to NOT show fleet members or in the case of incursions to ONLY show NPCs. When my vindis would start shooting a harby in my fleet it got interesting quickly. Best I could figure is I was somehow clicking on ships in space occasionally on some of the accounts.

There's a video of pinkskill interacting with a GM due to petitions. The GM actually told the people that were complaining to HTFU cause it's allowed. Isn't that funny that the people running the game disparaged as hello kitty online have a harder stance than ccp.

You mean this video?
I've nearly alpha'd one of my nightmares off the grid as well after a mishap with remote cap x-fers. That was entertaining to explain to my dorm buddies why I was screaming bloody murder at 9:00 pm. I know another of the VG boxers did alpha a boat off the grid once, but the name escapes me.
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#3930 - 2015-03-27 21:38:37 UTC
i totally forgot about that.
i nearly shot me while i was flying with 7 boxes in assaults.
nearly alphaed one machariel of mine :)

and always good is the wrong site enter during false warp hence losing ship.

english is bad cause alcoholic lvel has hit 6...
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3931 - 2015-03-27 22:49:05 UTC
Charadrass wrote:
and always good is the wrong site enter during false warp hence losing ship.

I've lost count of the number of ships I've lost from mis-warping to belts or taking gates early.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3932 - 2015-03-28 00:18:17 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
eXeler0n wrote:
I have to say, that Charadrass is totally right.

I hate it, that I can't play more characters at the same time as my own personal skills allow me to. Unfortunately CCP has not integrated any multiboxing functionality into the client and also they banned every external tools that helps me to achive more then I could only with my personal skills.

I think this is unfair, as I now have to play as a normal player and can't feel any better, stronger or even cooler then other players. May I should quit Eve because now I have realized that I'm not a pro-gramer. Instead I'm only a small player like all the other players out there and because of this I feel really mad.

Instead of adepting this I think it's the best way to flame the forums and threaten other players and CCP with my lawyer. This is the only educated and mature way to handle my own inability to play (or leave) a game the way the create intended it to.


Exactly my point. CCP doesn't want solo players to have tools to compete with groups. If you don't want to join a group then you just have to live with the fact that CCP sees you as a second class citizen of the game.

I believe your correct in your assumptions. The "sandbox" is getting smaller and smaller.

There are certain activities in TQ that if left to "groups" of individual players would never be efficient.
How many "groups" are prepared to sit in an ice field or asteroid belt for up to 8 hours per day doing nothing but mine. Where risk vs reward is more often risk than reward.
Mining large quantities of ore/ice has always been carried out by individuals with multiple accounts. It is the only efficient way to do it.

IsBoxer and other software like it only became an issue when a small group of players who had the ear of a dev or two complained loudly enough about being beaten by PVP isboxers and a few IsBoxer miners who seemed to have an advantage over individual players in the ice fields.
Instead of looking at the problem and dealing with it in a professional transparent way, CCP chose to start looking at the EULA for loopholes they could use to ban (as it turns out) anyone who multiboxes, using "interpretation" as a tool instead of amending the EULA so it is clear what is and is not legal.
If my round robin keystrokes are against the EULA, I want to see it in writing as part of the terms and conditions of the game. CCP may own Eve but that does not give them the right to ban one person for doing something while letting someone else continue to do it based on how efficient they are.
So far it seems, you can use round robin keystrokes or anything else, as long as you are not too efficient. CCP provide the tools to use Round Robin but somehow, have given themselves the right to ban individuals for using those tools, at their discretion.
A little like "power of two" promotions, "never fly alone again" but don't do it well or we will ban you.
"Too Efficient" is in the hands of a member of CCP security team, that interprets what you are doing, with the very real possibility, they have no idea what you are doing. (A good guess will suffice)

I have adapted in a way that suits me, I no longer multi box. I'm not "mad" about it but can understand why others are.

My suggestion to all multiboxers who are not happy with the current changes - UNSUB multiple toons. Don't quit the game, just play it the way the minority wants us all to, the way CCP is leading us, 1 person 1 active character.

Sure it will be boring for those who like the challenge of multiboxing but what better way to send a message than subs drop by 50%?
Power of Two, be damned, show CCP the power of 40,000 or 50,000 alts.

NB; The suggestions and thoughts here are mine as an individual paying customer, I am not trying to incite others to do as I have. Just putting my thoughts out there for others to read.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3933 - 2015-03-28 03:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Charadrass wrote:
and always good is the wrong site enter during false warp hence losing ship.

I've lost count of the number of ships I've lost from mis-warping to belts or taking gates early.

My worst loss due to stupitidy was a nestor that I warped to the wrong gate on. I was running with some newbros so I was busy making sure they were in the proper place and doing the right thing. It was also late at night and I was going to call it soon due to tiredness. I was using one nestor to warp everyone but I didn't have room for one account so I put the second nestor in a second squad with the ore dropper. Worked fine all night till it didn't....

If the wing command position actually received boosts from the fleet commander then none of this would of happened as the warping nestor would of been WC. Fleet warps really are a convenient way to shepard people site to site :P
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#3934 - 2015-03-28 13:40:54 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

My suggestion to all multiboxers who are not happy with the current changes - UNSUB multiple toons. Don't quit the game, just play it the way the minority wants us all to, the way CCP is leading us, 1 person 1 active character.


Yea that is exactly my plan as well. I am liquidating all of my assets and converting my net wealth into plexes. I am going to start up a brand new character on a new account, plex out the account with the plexes from the liquidation.

CCP will then have that amount of time to impress me enough to stay before I give them another penny of my money.

To be honest though the one character thing so far just hasn't engaged me, so I don't know how long that will last.

I still just don't understand why CCP has deemed the way I want to play the game, a way I have been playing the game for years without issue, to now be cheating.

CCP, I love EVE and I love you, why are you treating me like garbage? I just don't get it.

Well haters gonna hate I suppose and in this case the haters actually won :-(
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
#3935 - 2015-03-30 13:45:26 UTC
I have not for that long relished how important overheating modules etc... and if you was/were using multi broadcasting, and would
've overheated on all accounts. then I would've seen it quite likely/quite possible. to go really wrong. (lol) like burning out modules. I don't even have thermic trained on more than 1 off my accounts :) (because the risk off burning something out) LolUghShockedWhat?
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#3936 - 2015-03-30 14:28:34 UTC
happend to me multiple times.
thanks to the broadcasting bans i dont accidently overheat anymore.

so in fact i have to thank ccp for banning broadcasts.
granny Lina
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3937 - 2015-04-02 11:01:09 UTC
reading a few posts back just confirms some thoughts I shared with ccp.
my question, to which I do not expect an answer, is when those new rules are about to get effective.

there is one guy saying I can use 2 guns to outgun the ohers. im so great and my greatness is restricted. Lol
you know... I can wave my middle finger out of my porthole, ccp restricts me from being so great myself. Cry
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3938 - 2015-04-04 02:48:27 UTC
granny Lina wrote:
reading a few posts back just confirms some thoughts I shared with ccp.
my question, to which I do not expect an answer, is when those new rules are about to get effective.

I don't know, what exactly are you thinking of?

CCP Falcon wrote:

As of 15th of March 2013 we have been policing input automation based on a two-strike policy

• 1st strike for input automation is a 30 day ban
• 2nd strike for input automation is a permanent ban

Input Automation remains strictly prohibited, and is policed under our suspension and ban policy.

Based on the discussion in this area and our will to be more clear and concise with the community regarding this part of our rules, we have decided to also apply this two-strike policy to prohibited forms of Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing as of January 1st 2015.

We would like to add, however, that we will not be taking action retroactively and will only be policing this policy as of January 1st, 2015.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

granny Lina
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3939 - 2015-04-04 19:33:54 UTC
ok a reply cos you are a " Delicious goon " or another reason.
massive multiboting online
a single person in my ao is using more accounts than I have fingers on my hands and legs.
ccp is idle about it. thanking me for my reports or whatever they said.
the game probably have like a 1000 real people
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3940 - 2015-04-04 23:26:40 UTC
granny Lina wrote:
ok a reply cos you are a " Delicious goon " or another reason.
massive multiboting online
a single person in my ao is using more accounts than I have fingers on my hands and legs.
ccp is idle about it. thanking me for my reports or whatever they said.
the game probably have like a 1000 real people


If the guy is still there, and you continue to submit false reports, you can receive a temp ban. It does not take some superhuman feat of brainpower to manually box a squad of toons.