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[April] Battlecruiser Warp Speed and Warp Rig Tweaks

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#101 - 2015-04-03 22:15:28 UTC
so a sig radius analysis of cruisers to their relative class of bc,

rupture - hurricane/cyclone
125m - 250m, a full 100% increase

rifter - talwar
35m - 60m, about 85% increase

so we can see from here a 15% reduction in bc's sig radius is needed alongside the warp speed changes to get the achieved goal here.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2015-04-03 22:19:58 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Battlecruisers still suck.


More News at 11.

The benefits BC give over cruiser equivalents, or BS over BC/cruisers is linear and negligible, while the price is isn't.

Battleships at 200m is a joke. Awhile back, tier 1 and 2 at 60-110 mil was bearable by the market.

Nowadays? Cruisers Online.


Well since the insurance changed it's more manageable. Domis are spitting out ~203m on plat insurance now.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2015-04-03 22:23:34 UTC
afkalt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


"Hey Guys i should be the measuring stick for balance, I generate a lot of ISK and have over a decades worth of SP, Nothing matters to me, so it shouldn't matter to you either!"


So most eve players are less than a year old?

As for the isk, you can make 80mil/hr on level 3 missions in highsec at just 4 months old.


No, you can't. They won't have the skills nor the faction standing required for this. Sitting in the Ishtar isn't the same as actually being able to use it to an acceptable standard. T2 sentries are almost a month alone.

Plus it's been nerfed twice since those numbers.


He has a point - there are loads of people now who missed the dessie/BC split(!!!!) and a serious PvP golem pilot is a very intensive train down a pretty isolated path as far as PvP goes. 'Most' people aren't going to chase marauders V unless they're carebears. It's the kind of thing you do when there's not much more day to day stuff left.

Off topic but IIRC this goes back to the lvl 3 stomping Mach which really didn't need lvl 5 skills to shine. Really at 4 moths the isk to get the ship bought and fitted is the only barrier assuming no time was wasted on things other than getting there. Standing wouldn't be an issue either if you missioned for 4 months. You only need it at the corp level.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#104 - 2015-04-03 22:27:25 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Well since the insurance changed it's more manageable. Domis are spitting out ~203m on plat insurance now.


So that would be 250m for the naked hull and the insurance, you do know you may want to fit something there first?

Thing is you do not get 350m worth of isk, you get 65m isk worth if that. But you will get kited in a 70m isk hull instead, which you cannot hit.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2015-04-03 22:29:04 UTC
I thought it was the ishtar, however it's still a no from me: it's faction as it involves a decline of everything non-blitzable, I didnt mean just the agent access. You also will lack the social skills for isk and LP payout, most likely.

However, mach or ishtar aside - Stoicfaux who did it will have had excellent skills, far in excess of some 4 month old newbie
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2015-04-03 22:30:33 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Well since the insurance changed it's more manageable. Domis are spitting out ~203m on plat insurance now.


So that would be 250m for the naked hull and the insurance, you do know you may want to fit something there first?

Thing is you do not get 350m worth of isk, you get 65m isk worth if that. But you will get kited in a 70m isk hull instead, which you cannot hit.



Doesn't have anything to do with the cost though; the insurance used to be utterly worthless - now it's not, especially if you know you're going to die most likely. It was an excellent change that make T1 BS far more welpable. But I digress.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#107 - 2015-04-03 22:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
elitatwo wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Well since the insurance changed it's more manageable. Domis are spitting out ~203m on plat insurance now.


So that would be 250m for the naked hull and the insurance, you do know you may want to fit something there first?

Thing is you do not get 350m worth of isk, you get 65m isk worth if that. But you will get kited in a 70m isk hull instead, which you cannot hit.


His point is that hull insurance payout is good on BS. It matches other tech 1 equivalents, but a 250m hull+insurance is a high entry barrier for most people.

Why fly a battleship if you can buy it, anyway? Attack BC are there - 1/3 cost with better mobility and survivability.

Same weapons systems, same/equivalent hull bonuses? Bingo-presto. Smile

I thought Attack BC were a joke concept at first, but cancer spread and good job fixing battleships now. vOv

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2015-04-03 22:35:16 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I thought it was the ishtar, however it's still a no from me: it's faction as it involves a decline of everything non-blitzable, I didnt mean just the agent access. You also will lack the social skills for isk and LP payout, most likely.

However, mach or ishtar aside - Stoicfaux who did it will have had excellent skills, far in excess of some 4 month old newbie

i thought he didn't blitz, but I can't seem to find the thread for it.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2015-04-03 22:35:56 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Battlecruisers still suck.


More News at 11.

The benefits BC give over cruiser equivalents, or BS over BC/cruisers is linear and negligible, while the price is isn't.

Battleships at 200m is a joke. Awhile back, tier 1 and 2 at 60-110 mil was bearable by the market.

Nowadays? Cruisers Online.


I think we need at least double price tag for all t1 cruisers.


Price-fixing is not the most optimal solution, and there's a danger of breaking the market/people not doing PVP at all, or scaling down to frigs.

Ship use by (arch)type: http://i.imgur.com/z4ynWV9.png



But you complaining about BS prices

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#110 - 2015-04-03 22:37:45 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Battlecruisers still suck.


More News at 11.

The benefits BC give over cruiser equivalents, or BS over BC/cruisers is linear and negligible, while the price is isn't.

Battleships at 200m is a joke. Awhile back, tier 1 and 2 at 60-110 mil was bearable by the market.

Nowadays? Cruisers Online.


I think we need at least double price tag for all t1 cruisers.


Price-fixing is not the most optimal solution, and there's a danger of breaking the market/people not doing PVP at all, or scaling down to frigs.

Ship use by (arch)type: http://i.imgur.com/z4ynWV9.png



But you complaining about BS prices


I'm not, I don't fly them. Blink Neither does all of Eve due to them being... ****. So instead of price-fixing, how about BC and BS get fixed to justify paying for them?

Blink

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2015-04-03 22:43:48 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I thought it was the ishtar, however it's still a no from me: it's faction as it involves a decline of everything non-blitzable, I didnt mean just the agent access. You also will lack the social skills for isk and LP payout, most likely.

However, mach or ishtar aside - Stoicfaux who did it will have had excellent skills, far in excess of some 4 month old newbie

i thought he didn't blitz, but I can't seem to find the thread for it.



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345580

Also it was assets to set aside the hassle of hauling, selling and taxes/trade skills

It was a full T2 fit and 5% implants (so cybernetics IV). Additionally social LP skill at V, otherwise IV. Gunnery at 5/4. Support skills at V. MWD skills at IV.

The spreadsheet link shows a series of declines only possible with high faction standing, even going so far as to knock back missions more than 2J away.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2015-04-03 23:16:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I thought it was the ishtar, however it's still a no from me: it's faction as it involves a decline of everything non-blitzable, I didnt mean just the agent access. You also will lack the social skills for isk and LP payout, most likely.

However, mach or ishtar aside - Stoicfaux who did it will have had excellent skills, far in excess of some 4 month old newbie

i thought he didn't blitz, but I can't seem to find the thread for it.



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345580

Also it was assets to set aside the hassle of hauling, selling and taxes/trade skills

It was a full T2 fit and 5% implants (so cybernetics IV). Additionally social LP skill at V, otherwise IV. Gunnery at 5/4. Support skills at V. MWD skills at IV.

The spreadsheet link shows a series of declines only possible with high faction standing, even going so far as to knock back missions more than 2J away.

Good find, yeah, I apparently misremembered some details. That still leaves some room for good income with 40-60 doable.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2015-04-03 23:27:53 UTC
Indeed, but it's a long way from keeping you in blinged golems and HG crystal sets Smile
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#114 - 2015-04-03 23:34:36 UTC
Triple hyperspatial mach is a go

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#115 - 2015-04-04 01:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cartheron Crust
Only real problem with BC's is that cruisers are way too fast and have basically the same damage projection. So cruisers can just run rings around them and then leave when all BC's are dead. All the BC's get is more ehp and damage. Which doesn't really help. At least with BS the projection is better and damage a lot higher as is the EHP/Rep. Also they get Heavy Neuts. There is no reason to use a BC atm, except perhaps for ABC (Oracle decent damage boat for nano armor gang) or you enjoy EVE on "hardmode" ofc.

You buffed cruisers too much. Also the T3D's don't help much (Svipul mostly). Our Corp KB for top 10 ships used last month:-

Svipul 215 AttentionAttentionAttention
Typhoon Fleet Issue 35
Vagabond 32
Absoluiton 29
Lachesis 25
Confessor 23
Orthrus 21
Rattlesnake 20
Legion 11
Nighthawk 11

Previous Month:-

Confessor 179AttentionAttentionAttention
Svipul 60
Raven 50
Keres 18
Oracle 17
Cyclone 16
Omen Navy Issue 16
Deimos 15
Stiletto 14
Muninn 14

More nerfs please to Cruisers and T3D's.
Cade Windstalker
#116 - 2015-04-04 03:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
So, throwing together a couple of skeleton fits for testing purposes...

Drake with a single Explosion Velocity rig vs a Caracal with a 10MN Afterburner. Both use the EFT all-5s profile, and both have 3 BC IIs and a full loadout of HMLs.

The Drake applies 142 DPS to the Caracal and the Caracal applies 284 DPS to the Drake. Exactly double the applied DPS, but the Drake has almost four times the raw EHP of the Caracal and, when you look at some of the other available fittings can be passively fit to tank the Caracal all day, while the Caracal can not perma-tank the Drake, though it can probably escape easily. In a straight up fight of raw EHP between gangs of 10 the Caracals are going to lose at least two ships for every Drake that dies.

It's also worth noting that the Caracal gains no benefit from a Target Painter in this situation, but the Drake sees an increase to 176 applies DPS from just a single Tech 2 TP.

Running a similar setup between the Hurricane and the Rupture with ACs but with a single Tracking Enhancer on each ship we see a similar relationship, except the Hurricane is only losing on DPS by about a 1/3rd (389DPS to 283DPS at 5km, optimal DPS range for the Rupture) and still maintains a convincing tank advantage over the Rupture.

In short, a Battlecruiser with a similar basic fit has distinct advantages over a Cruiser. Of course the details of these fits are going to make or break them, but the BC has more fitting space, more slots, and more EHP to play with and uses the same weapons, so while it may not be able to catch every Cruiser out there it is very likely able to deal damage to it and in significant enough amounts to make up for the application difference between the two ships. Go figure the guy from Goons with a fleet concept named after him knows something about ship strengths and weaknesses... Roll
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#117 - 2015-04-04 05:19:20 UTC
Sir Livingston wrote:
battlecruiser usage must be low


Considering they do balance based on usage stats yes I'd say a buff does likely require that the subject was under utilised.

I do find it credulous that the sole reason battlecruisers aren't used is because of warp speed. It might have more to do with their being a bloated cruiser without much more to offer (and sometimes a lot less).
Cade Windstalker
#118 - 2015-04-04 05:55:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Sir Livingston wrote:
battlecruiser usage must be low


Considering they do balance based on usage stats yes I'd say a buff does likely require that the subject was under utilised.

I do find it credulous that the sole reason battlecruisers aren't used is because of warp speed. It might have more to do with their being a bloated cruiser without much more to offer (and sometimes a lot less).


They don't just balance based on usage stats. Rise said flat out at the Fanfest Balance panel that they feel BCs and Battleship usage is fine according to their metrics. This changes was precipitated by a well reasoned argument from a player (also said during a Fanfest talk).

*Snip* Removed a reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#119 - 2015-04-04 07:09:09 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:


No. Cruisers have application bonuses, which make them superior in most situations.


Harbinger
Amarr Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

vs.

Omen
Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Not sure where is the trick.


There's also a CBC with application bonus, but in general CBCs have damage and tanking bonuses, and are therefore weaker fighting smaller ships.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2015-04-04 07:27:53 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


Why fly a battleship if you can buy it, anyway? Attack BC are there - 1/3 cost with better mobility and survivability.



Well we all now know you don't fly either class of ship.

afkalt wrote:
Indeed, but it's a long way from keeping you in blinged golems and HG crystal sets Smile


My RHML raven managed it with just basic skills.

I had to train my alt into the mach and had it running within a month. 6 months on it makes enough to buy and fit a quafe mega and a comedy dread. But you can always fund yourself via manufacturing and trade which is where the big money is to be made.