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[April] Battlecruiser Warp Speed and Warp Rig Tweaks

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#61 - 2015-04-03 03:48:43 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
That's... just not correct. BCs compared to the closest bonuses Cruiser trade speed for being more effective in DPS, tank, fitting, and basically everything except speed and maneuverability.

Not for five times the sticker price.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2015-04-03 03:57:27 UTC
Unfortunatelly there are no more Drakes online we have ishtars and railgus online now. Same related to lovely cane fleet.

After the huge hate of Drake fleegs it was nerfed to the almost complete useless even the HAM version of it didn't come up same popular. So we have turned that page. What CCP did is presented tier 3 BC and we did love hem for sometime but not too long.

Nados turned to gatecamping tool Taloses are only good for Freighter kills and some Jita ganking events. Naga? Where is Naga?
Oracle did replace most of the BS in area of POS bashing. Cause it's way cheaper and same effective.

So current combat bc's are mainly used for lvl3 and low sec roams. Those are no more part of any large scale engagements. Faction variants are still doubtfull sometimes they are almost three times higher in prices but don't provide same increase in advantages vs t1 versions. But i still love my combat Brutix.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Cade Windstalker
#63 - 2015-04-03 04:44:35 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
That's... just not correct. BCs compared to the closest bonuses Cruiser trade speed for being more effective in DPS, tank, fitting, and basically everything except speed and maneuverability.

Not for five times the sticker price.


Okay? Then that's your determination and that's fine.

Tiddle Jr wrote:
Unfortunatelly there are no more Drakes online we have ishtars and railgus online now. Same related to lovely cane fleet.

After the huge hate of Drake fleegs it was nerfed to the almost complete useless even the HAM version of it didn't come up same popular. So we have turned that page. What CCP did is presented tier 3 BC and we did love hem for sometime but not too long.

Nados turned to gatecamping tool Taloses are only good for Freighter kills and some Jita ganking events. Naga? Where is Naga?
Oracle did replace most of the BS in area of POS bashing. Cause it's way cheaper and same effective.

So current combat bc's are mainly used for lvl3 and low sec roams. Those are no more part of any large scale engagements. Faction variants are still doubtfull sometimes they are almost three times higher in prices but don't provide same increase in advantages vs t1 versions. But i still love my combat Brutix.


Looking at the monthly metrics on zKillboard for last month (links withheld because of forum rules) the entire Cruiser Class as a whole seems to be losing about five times as many ships as the Combat Battlecruiser Class as a whole, which is, in turn, losing about 5-7 times as many ships as the Attack Battlecruiser category.

At the very least this shows that the ships are, in-fact, being used even if the stats available aren't perfect. Not every ship needs to be hugely popular, equally popular, or whatever else. As long as the ships have a role and a use and are being used then that's fine, and the data does show that BCs are being used.
Mario Putzo
#64 - 2015-04-03 04:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Any Reason?

I can think of a few, but basically it comes down to not being cost effective. You're effectively paying a premium for a heavy cruiser that in actuality performs worse than most cruisers.


That's... just not correct. BCs compared to the closest bonuses Cruiser trade speed for being more effective in DPS, tank, fitting, and basically everything except speed and maneuverability.

For example comparing the Rupture and the Hurricane, the Cane has two more turrets, the same number of Utility highs, an extra low, 50 more base CPU, 265 more base Powergrid, and almost three times the base hit-points of the Rupture.

The Drake has an extra launcher, a utility high, an extra mid, 170 more base powergrid, 70 more base CPU, almost three times the base HP, and the Resistance bonus.

In both cases the BCs are around 5 times more expensive than their Cruiser counterparts, but still easily affordable as hulls, especially compared to the other available Cruiser upgrades, namely Battleships, and anything Tech 2. They only lose out on speed and, in the case of the Caracal/Drake trade off some damage application ability and a Light Missile bonus.

So, in short, BCs perform different from Cruisers, but it's very hard to make a case for them being out-right worse than Cruisers. For example you can do some Level 4 missions in a well-fitted BC hull but trying to do the same thing in a T1 Cruiser hull is generally a recipe to lose the ship.


And you ignore probably the most important aspect of the Cruiser, BC relationship.

Drake is going to lose almost 60% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Cane is going to lose almost 40% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Brutix (rail) is going to lose almost 35% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Ferox (rail) ~35%
Harby ~35%
Cyclone 60%

Prophecy and Myrm will retain most of their potential DPS, because Drones.

Any Cruiser is going to retain nearly 100% of its DPS against a BC.

So double the tank, but take double the damage. Lets not even bother looking at the relationship against BS, where the damage application of extra high slots comes into play, because BC's are taking almost 100% more damage from BS than Cruisers will. Which makes them entirely irrelevant to bring in an escalated engagement where BS are fielded.

Since BCs are entirely ineffective going up the scale, and their weapons are LARGELY ineffective going down the scale (Dessies, Frigs) their target prey of choice is Cruisers.

Thus BC's are not cost efficient because their targets of choice are better equipped at engaging each other at the price point, better equipped to engage up the scale, and better equipped speed and maneuvering wise down the scale. There is almost no reason to fly a BC, ever at all in a PVP sense. With the exception of a few niche performers which are largely limited to the Tier 3 variants.

For almost every single situation a cruiser is just as good as a BC and its price point makes it pound for pound the more isk efficient ship to choose.

BC's are ****, and have been ever since CCP kicked them all in the nuts a couple years back then buffed cruisers. They can barely compare with cruisers as it stands, and even at that point a Cruiser Fleet dictates the engagement 100% of the time. BC's can not keep up with them and thus the Cruisers are free to engage and disengage at will, in some cases with more effective range than their BC counterparts to begin with.

The reason BCs are under used by comparison to Cruiser Hulls is because they are ****, and have very small engagement opportunity, and since opportunity cost is everything in EVE, they do not get used, because you don't get the bang for your buck.

About the only reason to use a BC (outside of the niche uses someone posted above) is for a PVE placeholder while you grind level 4s before you can comfortably fly a Battleship.

And no, these changes are not going to change the ineffectiveness of BCs because their damage application vs damage received is the issue, not their ability to warp from point A to point B.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#65 - 2015-04-03 05:04:34 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Drake is going to lose almost 60% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Cane is going to lose almost 40% of its DPS against any cruiser.

Any Cruiser is going to retain nearly 100% of its DPS against a BC.


And any cruiser will lose the same amount of DPS vs another cruiser. They use the same weapons and the BC gets more fitting room and often more damage.
Mario Putzo
#66 - 2015-04-03 05:09:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Drake is going to lose almost 60% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Cane is going to lose almost 40% of its DPS against any cruiser.

Any Cruiser is going to retain nearly 100% of its DPS against a BC.


And any cruiser will lose the same amount of DPS vs another cruiser. They use the same weapons and the BC gets more fitting room and often more damage.



Correct they will, but they will also take less damage against other cruisers. Thus negating the benefit of BCs increased tank, who are taking nearly 100% of paper DPS before resists.

BCs are to big "size" wise in the damage mechanics to be cost effective...except against other BC's i suppose.

If CCP was ferserious about tweaking BC's they would drop their sig radius down so they don't eat nearly 100% damage from mediums AND larges.

I mean just a standard shield fit on any of the BC's balloons them to almost Carrier size (tracking Titans vs Buffer Drakes anyone)....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2015-04-03 05:21:37 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Drake is going to lose almost 60% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Cane is going to lose almost 40% of its DPS against any cruiser.

Any Cruiser is going to retain nearly 100% of its DPS against a BC.


And any cruiser will lose the same amount of DPS vs another cruiser. They use the same weapons and the BC gets more fitting room and often more damage.



Correct they will, but they will also take less damage against other cruisers. Thus negating the benefit of BCs increased tank, who are taking nearly 100% of paper DPS before resists.

BCs are to big "size" wise in the damage mechanics to be cost effective...except against other BC's i suppose.

If CCP was ferserious about tweaking BC's they would drop their sig radius down so they don't eat nearly 100% damage from mediums AND larges.

I mean just a standard shield fit on any of the BC's balloons them to almost Carrier size (tracking Titans vs Buffer Drakes anyone)....


So why exactly should I be getting 800 DPS out of a 220 vulcan cane with only 2 t2 damage mods?
Mario Putzo
#68 - 2015-04-03 05:33:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Drake is going to lose almost 60% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Cane is going to lose almost 40% of its DPS against any cruiser.

Any Cruiser is going to retain nearly 100% of its DPS against a BC.


And any cruiser will lose the same amount of DPS vs another cruiser. They use the same weapons and the BC gets more fitting room and often more damage.



Correct they will, but they will also take less damage against other cruisers. Thus negating the benefit of BCs increased tank, who are taking nearly 100% of paper DPS before resists.

BCs are to big "size" wise in the damage mechanics to be cost effective...except against other BC's i suppose.

If CCP was ferserious about tweaking BC's they would drop their sig radius down so they don't eat nearly 100% damage from mediums AND larges.

I mean just a standard shield fit on any of the BC's balloons them to almost Carrier size (tracking Titans vs Buffer Drakes anyone)....


So why exactly should I be getting 800 DPS out of a 220 vulcan cane with only 2 t2 damage mods?


Because your ass is going to get kitted and killed by a 200 DPS HML Caracal? Balance =D
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#69 - 2015-04-03 05:37:00 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Because your ass is going to get kitted and killed by a 200 DPS HML Caracal? Balance =D


It needs to get in my weapon range to hold me and it will pop long before I do.
Mario Putzo
#70 - 2015-04-03 05:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
24K > 17K friend. and worst case....caracal just warps away and you left holding your **** in your hand. Fun stuff.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2015-04-03 05:46:55 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
24K > 17K friend. and worst case....caracal just warps away and you left holding your **** in your hand. Fun stuff.


22km range and only 300m/s slower than the caracal.

BC are not nearly as helpless as you are trying to make out.
Mario Putzo
#72 - 2015-04-03 05:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
24K > 17K friend. and worst case....caracal just warps away and you left holding your **** in your hand. Fun stuff.


22km range and only 300m/s slower than the caracal.

BC are not nearly as helpless as you are trying to make out.



MMMM that fall off Accuracy. So you will be doing what...50 DPS at 22K? Well maybe 150 DPS with your Drones I guess.

BC aren't helpless....they just aren't worth the ISK when you can get nearly the exact same functionality from a ship 1/5th the cost.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#73 - 2015-04-03 06:01:29 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
24K > 17K friend. and worst case....caracal just warps away and you left holding your **** in your hand. Fun stuff.


22km range and only 300m/s slower than the caracal.

BC are not nearly as helpless as you are trying to make out.



MMMM that fall off Accuracy. So you will be doing what...50 DPS at 22K? Well maybe 150 DPS with your Drones I guess.

BC aren't helpless....they just aren't worth the ISK when you can get nearly the exact same functionality from a ship 1/5th the cost.


Cost means nothing.
Mario Putzo
#74 - 2015-04-03 06:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
24K > 17K friend. and worst case....caracal just warps away and you left holding your **** in your hand. Fun stuff.


22km range and only 300m/s slower than the caracal.

BC are not nearly as helpless as you are trying to make out.



MMMM that fall off Accuracy. So you will be doing what...50 DPS at 22K? Well maybe 150 DPS with your Drones I guess.

BC aren't helpless....they just aren't worth the ISK when you can get nearly the exact same functionality from a ship 1/5th the cost.


Cost means nothing.



Oh it most certainly does to the vast vast vast majority of the player base....

If BCs were at all "useful" or "good" in this game, then they would be the most common ships flown just like they used to be when they were the best bang for the buck...because that is how this game works. Cruisers are the best bang for the buck currently, and it is why they are far and away the most used hull size.

Numbers don't lie, you can come up with any niche fits you want, none of them will break the mold because the mechanics don't allow it (see your cane vs caracal). Your Mega certainly didn't.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#75 - 2015-04-03 06:39:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Drake is going to lose almost 60% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Cane is going to lose almost 40% of its DPS against any cruiser.

Any Cruiser is going to retain nearly 100% of its DPS against a BC.


And any cruiser will lose the same amount of DPS vs another cruiser. They use the same weapons and the BC gets more fitting room and often more damage.


No. Cruisers have application bonuses, which make them superior in most situations.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2015-04-03 06:59:33 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:


No. Cruisers have application bonuses, which make them superior in most situations.


Harbinger
Amarr Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

vs.

Omen
Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Not sure where is the trick.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2015-04-03 07:06:01 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:


Drake is going to lose almost 60% of its DPS against any cruiser.
Cane is going to lose almost 40% of its DPS against any cruiser.

Any Cruiser is going to retain nearly 100% of its DPS against a BC.


And any cruiser will lose the same amount of DPS vs another cruiser. They use the same weapons and the BC gets more fitting room and often more damage.


No. Cruisers have application bonuses, which make them superior in most situations.


That and the point which was being made/aimed for is for all the hurricane [it was the first one mentioned] has more guns and more fitting due to the sig and speed it's going to take a shedload more damage from ALL sources compared to say, a cruiser. This becomes immediately relevant the second there's an ABC or a battleship on grid, granted the former being far more likely than the latter.

Also extra fittings aren't really generous or anything, mainly so they can make use of all their slots. Again to use the hurricane, it was 170 more grid....but even a dual 180mm ACII is 79 grid (at AWU V) sooo...yeah...not a lot "spare". And that's the smallest guns.

They are really, really good in a narrow niche as I've said - that niche being parking up at point blank and brawling like a hero. The most effective fits I've found are very high tracking guns, scrams & webs and an MMJD and hunt over confident frigate gangs, you did need people to come to you, it's not catching anything.

In open field fighting and roaming...poor overall due to a lack of ability to ...I was going to say dictate range but really it's more not even able to contest it well. We'd often bring one as a cheap booster but the body of the fleet was frigate/crusier/ABC.


The question is - what role are they supposed to have, are they failing to deliver in it and if so, why?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#78 - 2015-04-03 09:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mario Putzo wrote:


Oh it most certainly does to the vast vast vast majority of the player base....

If BCs were at all "useful" or "good" in this game, then they would be the most common ships flown just like they used to be when they were the best bang for the buck...because that is how this game works. Cruisers are the best bang for the buck currently, and it is why they are far and away the most used hull size.

Numbers don't lie, you can come up with any niche fits you want, none of them will break the mold because the mechanics don't allow it (see your cane vs caracal). Your Mega certainly didn't.


Cost means nothing because we no matter how expensive it is we can afford it. You are never going to get 5 times the performance for five times the cost.

Right now the single most dangerous ship in my book is the golem, yet you don't see lots of them flying around. The single most destructive anti-frig ship is the rattlesnake yet you never see it being used for such a role. BC are in good shape the problem is pilots such as yourself look at EFT and want to find excuses to not fly them. You refuse to take the time to learn to fly these ships and base your entire argument on EFT numbers rather than in game experience. The real problem here is that nobody tries anything anymore, you just give up and demand that CCP make everything the same.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2015-04-03 10:12:25 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
However, the penalty change from CPU to sig radius is incredibly disappointing. My ship fits with warp speed rigs (like my raptor) work fine around the cpu penalty, but are now punished worse by the sig radius change.


This helps balance out the bonuses though, since the warp-speed rigs are already far more beneficial on smaller ships than they are on larger ones.


Indeed it does, though it doesn't make the rigs any more desirable on anything bigger than a frigate imo. The only large ships I would use them on is a carrier for pve, and even then, the CPU is nowhere close to mattering.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2015-04-03 12:46:29 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
However, the penalty change from CPU to sig radius is incredibly disappointing. My ship fits with warp speed rigs (like my raptor) work fine around the cpu penalty, but are now punished worse by the sig radius change.


This helps balance out the bonuses though, since the warp-speed rigs are already far more beneficial on smaller ships than they are on larger ones.


Indeed it does, though it doesn't make the rigs any more desirable on anything bigger than a frigate imo. The only large ships I would use them on is a carrier for pve, and even then, the CPU is nowhere close to mattering.


Makes a big difference for my 425 megathrons.